Questions about March Pumps answered by the Factory!

[WalterAtMarchPump]

By the way, I got some thrust washers, and they seem to have helped, but I also reduced flow when approaching boiling temps to help with cavitation.

On another note, placing the pump motor below the pump head, in a vertical configuration, seems like a really bad idea to me. Unless you protected the motor, every drop falling from the head would be getting dangerously close to dripping inside the motor itself.

Unlikely anyone would want to mount the pump vertically though.

Mounting it with the motor on top is the first thought people have when mounting them verticaly...problem is you get an air pocket trapped in the rear housing and even though the pump head is pumping the back end is running dry. this cut away shows the pump head position if it was under the motor...

 

[Protto]

I got a March TE-5S-MD-AM off ebay. Originally powered by an air motor (suffix AM). I fitted a 250w three-phase motor to run it on electric power.
Pump works great, and I plan to fit a VFD to throttle the pump in addition to the ball valve om the outlet.
Since I'm in Europe the motor is run at 50Hz, and it's a 2-pole so theoretically 3000 rpm. The pump is a very light load for the motor so i meashured the actual RPM's to very close to 3000.

My questiom is, how high RPM can i safely run the pump at? With the VFD i can turn up the frequency to way above 50 or 60Hz. And looking at the data for the Gast air motor it can be run higher.

Thanks in advance Walter (and others), it's great that you are on here!

pic shows the pump refitted with electic motor and a Iwaki MD-10 in front.

 

[cscade]

I'm thrilled to have found this thread, I was about to cross my fingers and hope, but this is much better

I have 2 brand new 809 pumps, with stainless heads and 3/4" center inlets. These are part of a complete from-the-ground electric brewery build. Two weeks ago, I installed them and connected all the stainless fittings to them, followed by a wet test of PBW solution and then a thorough warm water flush. They are mounted like so:

Last night, I reached the point where I could wet test two of the new kettles, so I used the upper pump to move the contents of the 1st kettle to the second. When I turned on the pump, I was very surprised to see a significant amount of rust color in the hoses and the kettle. I disassembled the upper pump, and found rust staining, and noticeable rust formation on the un-polished interior surfaces. After cleaning, the head looks like this:

I had not yet run fluid through the lower pump, so I disassembled it as well. This is what I found inside, and let me just say I was NOT pleased:

What's going on here? It would appear that the un-polished surfaces inside the heads are corroding like mad. This is unacceptable, for something that has only ever moved water. My water is neither hard nor soft, it's totally middling. And I can leave water sitting in other stainless things for weeks on end with no ill effects.

I appreciate any response.

 

[mattd2]

Wow, that looks pretty yuk. I got a bit confused with what you had done, did you PBW both pumps or just the upper. Where did you buy these from? I would expect it to be a distributor issue (restocking "unused" pumps) than March actually shipping them like that.

 

[ekjohns]

I wonder if there is a non-stainless piece in there somewhere that is rusting. If it is stainless doesn't removing all the rust prevent future rust if allowed to dry properly?

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

I got a March TE-5S-MD-AM off ebay. Originally powered by an air motor (suffix AM). I fitted a 250w three-phase motor to run it on electric power.
Pump works great, and I plan to fit a VFD to throttle the pump in addition to the ball valve om the outlet.
Since I'm in Europe the motor is run at 50Hz, and it's a 2-pole so theoretically 3000 rpm. The pump is a very light load for the motor so i meashured the actual RPM's to very close to 3000.

My questiom is, how high RPM can i safely run the pump at? With the VFD i can turn up the frequency to way above 50 or 60Hz. And looking at the data for the Gast air motor it can be run higher.

Thanks in advance Walter (and others), it's great that you are on here!

pic shows the pump refitted with electic motor and a Iwaki MD-10 in front.

its hard to say....with the air motor we get that crazy curve due to the fact as you move to the left of the curve (against more head) the rpm's of the motor increase and can get some where in between 4000-4500rpm before the magnets de-couple, and thats why we get that 50' of head height out of the pump.....but thats with water...a heavier liquid will decouple the magnets at a lower rpm.
With electric motors they more or less stay at a constant rpm and dont go above 3450rpm. With your VFD you should be able to ramp it up to the same 4k+ rpms and get the same performace as the air motors...easiest thing to do is ramp it up till it decouples...turn it back a hair and mark it....shut the motor down and let the magnets re-align....then restart and it should be fine right there.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

cscade, i have no idea whats going on with your pump....the pump head itself is 316 stainless as is the shaft....there should be no reason for rust at all unless some foreign metalic (iron) material was stuck in there...considering the CNC that does the machining for these heads is a dedicated unit i cant see how there woud be anything in there from the factory. Is it possible you got something from the distributor that may have been previously used??? Or was there something harsh put through the pump for cleaning purposes?


heres something i got from one of our stainless suppliers:
Stainless does not "rust" as you think of regular steel rusting with a red oxide on the surface that flakes off. If you see red rust it is probably due to some iron particles that have contaminated the surface of the stainless steel and it is these iron particles that are rusting. Look at the source of the rusting and see if you can remove it from the surface.

 

[cscade]

Walter, thanks for your reply. I'm confident the pumps are new. They came from MoreBeer, and were packed in factory boxes with expanding foam packing material. They also have nearly-sequential serial numbers, so they are definitely the same manufacturing run.

To be clear, each pump has been flushed with PBW solution at normal cleaning strength, then thoroughly rinsed with water, then left unattended for 2 weeks. No parts exterior to the pumps were in contact with the process that were not stainless or silicone.

If you look at the first close-up photo in my post above, you can see (in the output part of the housing) where the un-milled interior surface itself has rust speckles all over it. This is true everywhere un-milled surface was in contact with water.

I know stainless itself doesn't rust, but I know that once oxides are present on it's surface, they must be removed or they will damage the adjacent stainless. The way these heads are cast, there is no way for me to get at those surfaces to fully clean them.

The metal has been contaminated at some point before they reached my door it seems.

cscade, i have no idea whats going on with your pump....the pump head itself is 316 stainless as is the shaft....there should be no reason for rust at all unless some foreign metalic (iron) material was stuck in there...considering the CNC that does the machining for these heads is a dedicated unit i cant see how there woud be anything in there from the factory. Is it possible you got something from the distributor that may have been previously used??? Or was there something harsh put through the pump for cleaning purposes?


heres something i got from one of our stainless suppliers:
Stainless does not "rust" as you think of regular steel rusting with a red oxide on the surface that flakes off. If you see red rust it is probably due to some iron particles that have contaminated the surface of the stainless steel and it is these iron particles that are rusting. Look at the source of the rusting and see if you can remove it from the surface.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

well i'm at a loss and to be honest its the first time I personaly have run across this in the 11yrs working here...send me back just the heads and i'll replace then for you now problem. shoot em a PM or email me at work: wwojcik @ marchpump dot com

 

[cscade]

Walter got me all squared away, and worked with me on my particular situation. Great customer service. Thanks March!

 

[Protto]

its hard to say....with the air motor we get that crazy curve due to the fact as you move to the left of the curve (against more head) the rpm's of the motor increase and can get some where in between 4000-4500rpm before the magnets de-couple, and thats why we get that 50' of head height out of the pump.....but thats with water...a heavier liquid will decouple the magnets at a lower rpm.
With electric motors they more or less stay at a constant rpm and dont go above 3450rpm. With your VFD you should be able to ramp it up to the same 4k+ rpms and get the same performace as the air motors...easiest thing to do is ramp it up till it decouples...turn it back a hair and mark it....shut the motor down and let the magnets re-align....then restart and it should be fine right there.

Thanks a lot!
Good to know the only issue is decoupling of the magnets, and no damage to shaft or bushings.
I painted the mag-drive coupler white and black in 4 quadrants so I can measure RPM using a model airplane tacho. Works brilliant as the motor adapter on this pump has cut-outs so the coupler is visible.

This will be a kick-ass pump for my 100 liter (26G) electric brewery!

Thanks again!

 

[phoenixs4r]

Is there any issue of mounting the pump, so the actual mounting bracket is vertical, not horizontal? I've seen plenty of heads mounted vertically, with inlet on bottom and output on top, but is there a problem when the actual body of the pump is vertical? Basically I mounted the pump to a leg of my brew stand. I don't see any issues, but I figures I'd check.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Is there any issue of mounting the pump, so the actual mounting bracket is vertical, not horizontal? I've seen plenty of heads mounted vertically, with inlet on bottom and output on top, but is there a problem when the actual body of the pump is vertical? Basically I mounted the pump to a leg of my brew stand. I don't see any issues, but I figures I'd check.

You can mount the pump verticaly...but the pump head needs to be on top of the motor. If you refer to another posting i made about pump orrientation you will see when the pump head is below the motor then you trap an air pocket in the rear housing. The pump will move liquid but the back end of it will be running dry in that air pocket and eventually cause you problems.

 

[phoenixs4r]

You can mount the pump verticaly...but the pump head needs to be on top of the motor. If you refer to another posting i made about pump orrientation you will see when the pump head is below the motor then you trap an air pocket in the rear housing. The pump will move liquid but the back end of it will be running dry in that air pocket and eventually cause you problems.

I saw that one, thanks. Ya the output is on the top.

 

[JTremblay]

Hi Walter,

I'm looking for a brewery pump to help with cellaring -- beer transfers (200+ litres) and cleaning via a spray ball.

So far, what I have is MoreBeer's H325 while a local reccomended the 809-SS-HS-C-115V.

Given that a quick Google has both pumps for about the same $$$, which would you recommend? My gut tells me the H325, but I'd like a sober second opinion.

Thanks!
Jason

 

[clearwaterbrewer]

I do not think the 809 will function with a sprayball very well, a 325 does OK on my spinning, keg-cleaning sprayball I got from St. Pats, but I really like the way a TE-5 march pump spins it for CIP... For CIP, a TE-5x-MD will work great, and a TE-5.5x-MD is awesome...

Interested to see what Walter says...

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

It will all depend on what that spray ball needs to operate properly...if you can get me the specs for it i can help you. See if they tell you what the psi it needs or GPM it needs to opperate properly....thanks

 

[clearwaterbrewer]

here is the info for the St. Pats one I have:

http://www.stpats.com/oakbarrels.htm#beerkegtools
Barrel Cleaning Nozzle $69
304 Stainless Steel.
3/4" FPT.
Outside diameter 1.4"
Spins best in vertical position (either up or down).
Pressure/Flow: 20-40 psi and 8-15 GPM


other sprayballs are pretty much our of our league:
http://www.stpats.com/TankAccessories2.htm
Revolving Spray Ball $79 in stock

1.5" Tri-Clamp connection.
2 " Diameter ball.
304 stainless.
Pressure: 30 psi
Flow: 50 GPM
Cleaning diameter: 8'

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

If it needs 20psi to work then none of these pumps will do the trick....this is territory for our 320 and 335 pumps as far as pressure goes....the 809's will fall short.

 

[BrewingChemist]

I have an older march pump - model just says mdx - will I be able to use it to pump hot wort? Also - it seems to have hard plastic on it - does that need to be replaced with metal, and if so, what would the part number be?
Thanks!!

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

The MDX pumps are limited to 190*F liquids. If you let the wort cool down below that then you can use it for pumping. They have similar performace to the 809-HS but dont have the temp limits of the 809's....and unfortunatly they have different brackets so you wouldnt be able to use any other pump head on it...

 

[BrewingChemist]

The MDX pumps are limited to 190*F liquids. If you let the wort cool down below that then you can use it for pumping. They have similar performace to the 809-HS but dont have the temp limits of the 809's....and unfortunatly they have different brackets so you wouldnt be able to use any other pump head on it...

Thanks so much! I was hoping I would be able to use this pump! now to buy a plate chiller!

 

[mattd2]

The MDX pumps are limited to 190*F liquids. If you let the wort cool down below that then you can use it for pumping. They have similar performace to the 809-HS but dont have the temp limits of the 809's....and unfortunatly they have different brackets so you wouldnt be able to use any other pump head on it...

Hi Walter, can you explain the why the MDX is limited to 190°F? Are the head/impellor made out of (GR)PP? I have an Iwaki knockoff MD(?) that pumps boiling wort fine (when it's not blocked with hops!).

 

[TheOnionKnight]

Great pics! Looks like your thrust washer is gone....i just sent ya a PM..

How did he lose the thrust washer in the first place? Did he never have it or did the boiling water disintegrate it ?

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

How did he lose the thrust washer in the first place? Did he never have it or did the boiling water disintegrate it ?

They can wear down over time depending on how the impeller is forced against it due to restrictions on the inlet side of the pump....the more blockage you have the more the impeller will ride up against it. Some people never need to replace one...other do it once a year due to their system setup...
Its a teflon washer so boiling temps are not a problem for it...

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Hi Walter, can you explain the why the MDX is limited to 190°F? Are the head/impellor made out of (GR)PP? I have an Iwaki knockoff MD(?) that pumps boiling wort fine (when it's not blocked with hops!).

We limit the pump to that temp due to the fact that mag-drive pumps dont get alot of fluid turn over on the back side of the impeller and tend to run hotter back there.....so given enough time it can cause damage to the pump. Short bursts will probably not do harm...there is a small fudge factor built in but to keep people from returning them for warranty due to damage we limit them lower...

 

[mattd2]

We limit the pump to that temp due to the fact that mag-drive pumps dont get alot of fluid turn over on the back side of the impeller and tend to run hotter back there.....so given enough time it can cause damage to the pump. Short bursts will probably not do harm...there is a small fudge factor built in but to keep people from returning them for warranty due to damage we limit them lower...

Fair enough, Basically what I thought would be the case. Cheers!

 

[cmuench]

Walter

I have a single tier system with 2 809 pumps. I upgraded the impellars to the high flow larger version. I recirculate the mash and HLT onto the top of my Blichman 20 gal pots. My pumps are mounted horizontal below the outlet on the bottom of the pots.

When I'm heating my strike water I have no problem with my pump. I never have a problem with the HLT pump. But after I dough in and start to recirculate again I get a bunch of air down below the false bottom and into the in port on the bottom of the pump. I lose flow and its a real PIA to keep it running.

Right now I just have a short run of tubing dumping the mash onto the top of my water level. It's running horizontal. I was thinking of making this vertical down into the mash in an attemp to minimize the introduction of air into the mash.

Any tips on keeping this from happening?

Thx

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

I'm not quite following it...but if i understand the problem, the easiest thing you can do is to throttle down the pump flow with a valve on the outlet side to keep it from sucking air that may be at the bottom...and give it a little time to rise back up and away from the inlet of the pump.

 

[PunkinDrublic]

Walter,

I just acquired a March MDX #0135-0006-0100 at a really good price and have a few questions about connecting this to my rig. I currently just use it for recirculating H2O through my chiller but would like to eventually use it for wort transfers and mash recirculation through 1/2 tubing. When I bought the pump I assumed the ends were NPT but they are barbed instead.
The question I have is how can I add quick disconnects to the 5/8 barbs? Would 5/8 compression fitting to 1/2 MPT work?

Thanks in advance.