Question on a recipe regarding mashing

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stosh

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Rookie question here...I read a recipe recently that said to perform a protein rest at 122 F for 30 minutes, mash at 150 F for 1 hour, and perform a conversion at 158 F. There was no time listed for the conversion.

Is the conversion the mash out? If so how long does that typically last? 158 F seems low for a mash out.

This is for a 3 gallon batch of barley wine

Yeast: WLP099

5.4lb 2 Row
2.4lb Maris Otter
1.5lb Munich Malt
0.6lb Flaked Barley
0.9lb Carapils
0.3lb Crystal 60
2.7lb Dry Malt Extract
0.6lb Brown Sugar

0.3oz Chinook 60
0.3oz Chinook 45
0.3oz Nugget 45
0.6oz Nugget 30
0.6oz Northern Brewer 30
0.6oz Tettnanger 5
0.6oz Chinook 5

Protein Rest 122F
Mash @ 150F for 60 min
Conversion @ 158F
 
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ProblemChild

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What is the grain bill and beer style? I am curious about the protein rest in the first place.

Mashing at 150°F for an hour will pretty much convert everything as it is - especially when considering the protein rest and the time to ramp up after that.
 
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Is the conversion the mash out?
Yes I agree with you that must be what they meant. And 158 for a mashout is below the usual stated 165. But..... unless you are flysparging, a mashout really isn't necessary anyways. The reason for a mashout temp is to stop all enzyme activity while you're doing your hour-long flysparge. If you are batch sparging, or no-sparging, or BIAB, everything happens so quickly that a mashout isn't important.
 
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stosh

stosh

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This is for a 3 gallon batch of barley wine

Yeast: WLP099

5.4lb 2 Row
2.4lb Maris Otter
1.5lb Munich Malt
0.6lb Flaked Barley
0.9lb Carapils
0.3lb Crystal 60
2.7lb Dry Malt Extract
0.6lb Brown Sugar

0.3oz Chinook 60
0.3oz Chinook 45
0.3oz Nugget 45
0.6oz Nugget 30
0.6oz Northern Brewer 30
0.6oz Tettnanger 5
0.6oz Chinook 5

Protein Rest 122F
Mash @ 150F for 60 min
Conversion @ 158F
 
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I'm also suspicious of the need for the 122* 30 minute protein rest. More recipe details please.
Edit-- Ooops. You beat me to the punch.
 
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With that grain bill, and that style, I don't see the need for a protein rest. May be an old recipe written back in the days of undermodified malts??? Modern malts have plenty of FAN (Free something-or-other Nitrogen) which was the point of a protein rest back in the old days. Most current recipes that have a protein rest, are generally packed with non-malt adjuncts (lots of raw wheat or rye) and they still hold at 122* for only 10 minutes or so. If you break down too much protein with a long rest you run the risk of having a thin, short lasting head of foam. I'd skip it.
Otherwise looks like a pretty good recipe. Maybe a bit heavy on the hops, and an unusual choice of hops, but that's just me.
 

BigEd

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Rookie question here...I read a recipe recently that said to perform a protein rest at 122 F for 30 minutes, mash at 150 F for 1 hour, and perform a conversion at 158 F. There was no time listed for the conversion.

Is the conversion the mash out? If so how long does that typically last? 158 F seems low for a mash out.

This is for a 3 gallon batch of barley wine

Yeast: WLP099

5.4lb 2 Row
2.4lb Maris Otter
1.5lb Munich Malt
0.6lb Flaked Barley
0.9lb Carapils
0.3lb Crystal 60
2.7lb Dry Malt Extract
0.6lb Brown Sugar

0.3oz Chinook 60
0.3oz Chinook 45
0.3oz Nugget 45
0.6oz Nugget 30
0.6oz Northern Brewer 30
0.6oz Tettnanger 5
0.6oz Chinook 5

Protein Rest 122F
Mash @ 150F for 60 min
Conversion @ 158F

The main conversion rest is your 150F @ 60 min. The 122F rest is an anachronism and totally unnecessary with that grain bill and beer. 158F is not a mash out, it is a short rest at the top end of the beta rest stage to create some longer chain sugars. For a barley wine this is not a necessity IMO. My suggestion is to do a simple one temperature rest at 152F for one hour and then proceed to a 15 minute mashout @ 170F.
 
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short rest at the top end of the beta rest stage to create some longer chain sugars.
Of course one must wonder how much starch would be still available to have alpha work on it after an hour at 150*? That's why I figured it must have been a low temp mashout.
I do a one-step decoction with all my Altbiers and lagers. Start at 145* ,and take the decoction after only ten minutes. It generally is a total of 30 minutes before the decoction is returned raising the main mash to 155* which I hold for another 20 minutes. Years ago when I did the research to come up with this technique, it indicated that the main mash would have completely converted by the 40 minutes at 145, and the 155 step was really only for the starch remaining in the decocted portion. I don't know for sure of course, and am not sure how a homebrewer would go about proving that hypothesis, but I have to believe something...... :mug:
 

ProblemChild

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Replace carapils with more base malt or better yet, Munich. A barley win needs huge malt support. The flaked barley alone will make it thick and chewy (a good thing here).

Your yeast will definitely cut through the sugar, but be careful to control temp. Narrow range on that one. Off flavors will happen if it gets too hot. Also read the following thread on handling a barley wine and WLP099 - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/wlp099-high-gravity-yeast-technique.22678/ I have done extremely well with a single pitch and oxygenating at pitch and at 24 hours.

I also agree with the above statement that he mash out is probably not necessary, but if done, it should be done to raise the temp of the grain in the mash tun to 168°F or it will not do the intended job of denaturing the enzymes and basically do nothing more than make the mash hotter.

Finally, with a big beer, conversion can be problem. Drawing out the mash to 75 or 90 min will not hurt. Mash in to get temp to 150°F for 90 min. Every 20 min or so, gently stir the grain bed. Not a lot - a few circles with the paddle and bring up a little from the bottom. Do not splash and do not get aggressive -nice and easy.
 

BobBailey

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I'm with BigEd. Single infusion at 152. I wouldn't even bother with the mash out. With a 3 gallon batch size, by the time you screwed around with it you'd be at, or very close to, a boil and the enzymes would be long gone.
 
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stosh

stosh

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Thanks for the input gents. Goes to show how much I have to learn.

If I wanted to BIAB this and get a heavier/chewy beer what would be the best course of action? Mashing at a higher temp, increasing the flaked barley and/or carapils, both, or another approach?
 

ProblemChild

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I would get rid of carapils and do torrified wheat. Very appropriate for that style
 

ProblemChild

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The combo of flaked barley (already in grist) and torrified wheat will make this very chewy. I like it

should have noticed this earlier -brown sugar.

Some like it, but I find that turbinado (Sugar in the Raw is a common store brand) or demerara is a better choice.

In fact, make invert sugar out of the turbinado. Simply add the .6lb to 7/8 cup water add 1/2 teaspoon lemon juice to the mix and hold at 236°F on the stove top for 20+ minutes (start timer when 236°F is hit). Add tiny bits of water as you go to keep the temp down and to prevent scorching. I promise, you will recognize the taste and smell from some of the richer English ales once you make it. The character is wonderful. Just pour the syrup into the last 10 min of the boil
 
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