Question for electricians on 240V GFCI

[ZmannR2]

So my electric brewery is all set up. For power I tapped into my water heater which is just the two hots and a ground. The ground of course is just tied into the neutral in the breaker panel. When I do my brewing, I turn off the water heater so the 30 amp doesn't trip.

Here's my problem. I swapped out the regular 30a for a GFCI and wired it according to the paper on it for a 2-wire 240V setup.

Now, running my boilcoil using my pid controller is fine. But the second I flip on the pump, the GFCI trips. And I know it's because it's only using one leg of the 240V in order to run....therefore causing an imbalance and creating nuetral current which then trips the breaker. Is there a way around this?? Should I run the ground wire into the center post on the GFCI? How does a GFCI circuit run a pump on one hot leg without tripping??

 

[ZmannR2]

Looking more into it. Is there an issue with running the bare ground wire into the "load neutral" on the GFCI? That way if one leg is used, the incoming neutral current won't cause an imbalance and the CT within the breaker won't trip?

 

[mredge73]

First of all you should never run current through the ground. You need a dedicated neutral wire.

There is a place for the neutral wire on the GFCI breaker, usually right above the white pigtail. It lands there, so you should have 2 hots and 1 neutral landed to the breaker itself.
The pigtail that comes with the breaker lands on the neutral/ground strip in the breaker panel.

For example:
https://i.stack.imgur.com/OlXRG.png

 

[ZmannR2]

Ya but what I'm saying is, I tapped into my water heater circuit which is a 3-wire 240V circuit (2 hots and 1 bare ground wire)

Am I forever doomed to running my pump off a seperate circuit now?

 

[WI_Wino]

Ya but what I'm saying is, I tapped into my water heater circuit which is a 3-wire 240V circuit (2 hots and 1 bare ground wire)

Am I forever doomed to running my pump off a seperate circuit now?

Options as I see them

Run dedicated circuit if you have access and space

add a 10 gauge neutral to existing circuit if you have access

Use a 240v pump

User different 120v gfci protected circuit for pump

 

[ZmannR2]

I read somewhere someone mention a transformer I can use? I guess to drop the 240V to 120V? That way I'm pulling off both legs evenly

Btw here's my set up. Just a quick drawing I made just now

 

[itsnotrequired]

Options as I see them

Run dedicated circuit if you have access and space

add a 10 gauge neutral to existing circuit if you have access

Use a 240v pump

User different 120v gfci protected circuit for pump

^this

you need a dedicated neutral in the circuit if you want to run 120v loads. with your present setup, gfci is performing exactly as intended. it is sensing the current going out is greater than the current coming back so some of that current is going somewhere it shouldn't. in this case, along the ground conductor.

adding a neutral to the existing circuit will be difficult if your existing wiring is romex, it is a code violation to just drape an additional conductor (neutral) alongside the romex.

a transformer can work as well but if done to code, introduces more complexity and components. if you don't want to get a 240v pump, how about an extension cord to wire the pump into a gfci receptacle somewhere nearby?

 

[ZmannR2]

Well I bought the Blichmann Riptide pump. I'm guessing there's no way to convert it? =(

 

[ZmannR2]

What if I grounded my stainless table, which my pot sits on, and go back to a normal circuit breaker? Any short would then travel directly to ground and trip the breaker

edit: No I don't want to remove the protection....ugh this pisses me off!

 

[Maylar]

Do NOT use the ground as a neutral for the 120 v circuit. If you can't run a dedicated 120V line to the pump you could replace the 10/2 wire with a 10/3 that includes a neutral.

 

[ZmannR2]

I have an outlet for the pump nearby I just wanted to be able to use the toggle switch in my controller. Thanks I'll probably buy and install a step down transformer

 

[mredge73]

Make sure you size the transformer right, you will need 240va (2A FLA at 120vac) for a chugger pump.
I would call chugger or march up and see how much they would sell you a 230vac motor, will probably be much cheaper than this transformer you are wanting to get.

edit, I just saw you have a riptide pump.
I don't know what the FLA is on this one, you will need to research it or look on the motor nameplate.

 

[Backwoodsbrewing]

You need a four wire home run. Two hots a neutral and a ground the hot water tank is typically a three wire. A gfci breaker uses a current transformer to measure voltage between both hot wires and when there is a difference between one leg and the other it will trip. If you have a neutral it will measure between the neutral and both legs. If one leg draws more current like when you use a pump it measures from one leg to neutral. It won't trip but it can't measure between ground and hot it sees this as current loss and shuts off

 

[Backwoodsbrewing]

Use your dryer plug it should be a four wire if it was wired after the mid to late 80's

 

[Backwoodsbrewing]

Just buy 10-3 so and make an extension cord to your dryer

 

[jerni21]

just run a seperate gfci protected circuit for the pump, it's not legal to tap off one leg of a 240 circuit, plus any imbalance on the neutral will trip the gfci breaker

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

just run a seperate gfci protected circuit for the pump, it's not legal to tap off one leg of a 240 circuit, plus any imbalance on the neutral will trip the gfci breaker

This. ^^^^

If it were me, I'd just install one of those RV-type 120VAC receptacles in the bottom of the control box and plug a 120v cord into it. then rewire all your 120V things to that circuit. Done.

 

[Backwoodsbrewing]

just run a seperate gfci protected circuit for the pump, it's not legal to tap off one leg of a 240 circuit, plus any imbalance on the neutral will trip the gfci breaker

So is building and operating equipment that's not UL listed

 

[augiedoggy]

So is building and operating equipment that's not UL listed

ok (not sure I understand what your saying here but) but its still going to cause the gfci to trip whether its built to code or not..
IT not illegal to build an appliance or control panel thats not UL listed... This has come up many times... If the panel has a plug and isnt hardwired its just an appliance. I was recently reminded of this myself...
For home use it does not need to be UL listed. I work for a company installing large machines (some are upwards of 2.5 million bucks a pop)... guess what? they are not UL listed even though they are hardwired.. only CE certified... even the rules for commercial use are not as simple. My good friend works at GM as an electrician and I can assure you they dont have every control panel they build UL listed...

 

[Backwoodsbrewing]

ok (not sure I understand what your saying here but) but its still going to cause the gfci to trip whether its built to code or not..
IT not illegal to build an appliance or control panel thats not UL listed... This has come up many times... If the panel has a plug and isnt hardwired its just an appliance. I was recently reminded of this myself...
For home use it does not need to be UL listed. I work for a company installing large machines (some are upwards of 2.5 million bucks a pop)... guess what? they are not UL listed even though they are hardwired.. only CE certified... even the rules for commercial use are not as simple. My good friend works at GM as an electrician and I can assure you they dont have every control panel they build UL listed...

My bad it is a code violation for me to install equipment that is not UL listed. I'm not sure about a home owner. I got into a hassle with a Washington state grow operation a few years back we supplied power. And outlets the customer later plugged lights into the outlets which were not listed. The inspector tried to blame and fine us. But we were not at fault we didn't supply the lights . Sorry about any mis statement

 

[Backwoodsbrewing]

This makes me wonder because I just finished my control panel. I supplied a four wire 30 amp circuit for it. But have yet to put a load. On the pump receptacles. It fires up ok. I originally supplied two circuits one for the controller and another for the pumps but was told I would not need it

 

[passedpawn]

This makes me wonder because I just finished my control panel. I supplied a four wire 30 amp circuit for it. But have yet to put a load. On the pump receptacles. It fires up ok. I originally supplied two circuits one for the controller and another for the pumps but was told I would not need it

Yea, you don't need a second cable. 120V pumps can be supplied from either 120 line in the 240V cable, then they return back to neutral. No problem, and as long as the GFI is wired properly, it won't trip. Neutral in your system must be wired to the GFI neutral output, and must not be connect to GND anywhere after the GFI. Use the GND only for exposed metal, and not into any electrical ckt in your system. If you use 120V outlets, of course the gnd should be wired to the 3rd ground lug on the outlet. My point is that the gnd should not carry any current (which will trip the GFI).

 

[augiedoggy]

My bad it is a code violation for me to install equipment that is not UL listed. I'm not sure about a home owner. I got into a hassle with a Washington state grow operation a few years back we supplied power. And outlets the customer later plugged lights into the outlets which were not listed. The inspector tried to blame and fine us. But we were not at fault we didn't supply the lights . Sorry about any mis statement

No problem at all... im currently trying to open a nanobrewery and completely feel your pain... in commercial applications the rules constantly change but needing UL listed components all depends on local enforcement Ive been told on probrewer...

Due to new national fire codes passed in october for example everything in the place now needs to be fire rated so no wood on the walls or ceiling without spraying with special fireproofer that makes the whole idea cost prohibitive because of exorbitant certification costs to "test".....
Sorry, ill get off my soapbox now..

 

[golfindia]

Local brew shop by me in FL (bar, sells supplies, rents brew time/space) is all electric. Their brew control equipment is all home made. PID panels, switching, etc. I asked about how that worked with UL requirements and local inspection, he said whatever he makes himself doesn't have to be UL certified. They have half a dozen professionally installed 50amp sockets that had to be inspected (drool), but beyond that they do whatever they want.

 

[passedpawn]

Local brew shop by me in FL (bar, sells supplies, rents brew time/space) is all electric. Their brew control equipment is all home made. PID panels, switching, etc. I asked about how that worked with UL requirements and local inspection, he said whatever he makes himself doesn't have to be UL certified. They have half a dozen professionally installed 50amp sockets that had to be inspected (drool), but beyond that they do whatever they want.

Southern Brewing? If so, I thought they used Blich equipment

 

[golfindia]

Bootleg brewing in Brandon.