Question concerning the differences between secondary aging and bottle aging

[_Keven]

Hello, I'm currently brewing Northern Brewer's Northy 12 extract kit and after reading the instructions they call for a secondary fermentation of 3 months. My main concern after reading some reviews is this length of time has caused some people's bottled beers to not carbonate fully (or at all) for months after bottling. My guess is the yeast goes dormant when sitting in secondary for so long causing the lack of carbonation in the bottle. So my question is if there is a difference between putting the beer in secondary for 3 months compared to just going straight to bottling and let them condition in there for 3 months (assuming we've reached our final gravity by this point). Wouldn't the beer still age the same in the bottle? This would also let the yeast prime the bottles as it wouldn't be such a long time from brewing day to bottling day. Any thoughts/opinions would be appreciated.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Northern Brewer's Northy 12 extract kit

Is this the kit? Northy 12 Belgian Quad Extract Beer Recipe Kit. (If so, and mostly for personas skimming the topic, the kit is a 10% ABV Belgian Quad).

What strain of yeast did you use?

 

[_Keven]

Is this the kit? Northy 12 Belgian Quad Extract Beer Recipe Kit. (If so, and mostly for personas skimming the topic, the kit is a 10% ABV Belgian Quad).

What strain of yeast did you use?

Yes thats the one, I used 2 packs of wyeast 3787

 

[mac_1103]

I use bottling yeast when I bulk age big beers for months before bottling. Lallemand CBC-1 or Fermentis F-2. You can substitute a wine yeast if you want to save a few bucks.

 

[Rish]

Wouldn't the beer still age the same in the bottle?

You can leave in your fv for a 4-6 weeks (I do this with all my beers) to let it settle then bottle and age. You may get a little more trub in the bottle doing that but in this dark beer I certainly wouldn't worry about it.

 

[MaxStout]

You don't need to rack into a secondary vessel, and you shouldn't. That little bit of "advice" never seems to die. Racking to secondary introduces the risk of oxidation and infection.

Let it ferment in your primary for a couple months, then bottle. As others had noted, it's good to repitch some fresh yeast at bottling as your primary yeast will likely be shot. Use any neutral yeast that will handle 10%. US-05 or Nottingham will work. A big beer like that will need some time in bottles to fully condition. Don't expect it to be ready in the usual 2-3 weeks.

 

[mac_1103]

You don't need to rack into a secondary vessel, and you shouldn't. That little bit of "advice" never seems to die.

This instructions call for three months of bulk aging after fermentation is complete. I do use a secondary vessel when I'm aging that long, especially if I'm adding wood chips or something like that. But I do a closed transfer to a purged container for my secondaries.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@_Keven One of the compelling reasons for using bottle conditining strains like CBC-1 / F-2 / EC-1118 (rather than just any old ale strain that's in the fridge) is that those bottle conditioning strains do only what you need them to do: ferment simple sugars.

If the ale yeast (say US-05) used to bottle condition has a higher attenuation rate that the original yeast, the US-05 yeast will ferment additional complex sugars in the bottle. Will this cause gushers and/or bottle bombs? Maybe. Maybe not.

But why take the risk when there's a yeast product that will exactly what you need it to do?

---

https://wyeastlab.com/product/belgian-high-gravity/

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/products/nottingham-high-performance-ale-yeast/

https://fermentis.com/en/product/safale-us‑05/

 

[_Keven]

You don't need to rack into a secondary vessel, and you shouldn't. That little bit of "advice" never seems to die. Racking to secondary introduces the risk of oxidation and infection.

Let it ferment in your primary for a couple months, then bottle. As others had noted, it's good to repitch some fresh yeast at bottling as your primary yeast will likely be shot. Use any neutral yeast that will handle 10%. US-05 or Nottingham will work. A big beer like that will need some time in bottles to fully condition. Don't expect it to be ready in the usual 2-3 weeks.

Good idea, I'll definitely pick up some more yeast for bottling. The goal was to have this beer ready around Christmas so I have some time.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

I ferment 3.8% beers for 6 days, then bottle. No detectable improvement between drinking in one week or eight weeks, no data for beyond eight weeks..........

 

[mac_1103]

I ferment 3.8% beers for 6 days, then bottle.

That's great, but this is a 10% ABV Belgian quad.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

mac - I was inferring normally no need for secondary - that's all....

 

[Closet Fermenter]

Now that I have learned on this site to greatly fear oxidation, and have seen positive results in my brewing from doing so, I want to get my beer in the keg as soon as I can. The reason I do this is because I know that my fermenter is not as airtight as a keg, and whether I use a blowoff, or airlock, there’s a chance of oxygen getting back into the fermenter.
Once I get it into the keg, (purged), I can inject the priming sugar and let it carbonate. Then, I can let it sit as long as needed by recipe, or whenever I have a place for it in the cooler.

Besides the issue of the yeast pooping out on you, I suppose there’s the question of whether the aging under pressure of full carbonation effects the aging process. It can’t be the additional alcohol created by the carbonation, especially in a high ABV beer like this one. I suppose there could also be some benefit in the “bulk” volume as opposed to just the amount in a bottle, but I don’t know enough about to offer an opinion. That’s one advantage of the keg; it’s still in bulk. Of course, your fermenter may be higher grade than mine, so that isn’t the issue, but I wouldn’t want to tie up my fermenter that long.

 

[mac_1103]

I was inferring normally no need for secondary - that's all....

I don't think one can assume that such different beers will behave the same way in terms of aging either before or after bottling. And bulk aging is not the same thing as a secondary fermentation.

Your point was that your low ABV beer didn't change in the bottle, but the beer that the OP is brewing actually needs to change (i.e., mature, condition, etc) and the OP's question is whether that's going to be different in bulk before bottling vs in the individual bottles. A follow-up question could be whether bulk aging on top of yeast and trub is going to be different than bulk aging in a secondary vessel.

 

[Dgallo]

I wouldn’t actually put the beer in a secondary fermenter, I’d keep it in the primary. The aging in the fermenter is to get it to clear up in there verses having all the trub settle in your bottles. If you can’t close transfer to a secondary that is purged of o2, you will greatly increase o2 pick up which will change the beer

In terms of bottling after 3 month from a primary, you should be fine but you could always add some bottle conditioning yeast like cbc1 and add it to each bottle with a 1/2 tsp of priming sugar at the time you bottle.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

When dosing individual bottles with bottle conditioning yeast, 1/32 teaspoon ('smidgen') or 1/64 teaspoon ('drop') measuring spoons will be helpful. A set of 5 (1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64) is currently around $5 at that large WA-based online e-commerce site.

 

[Snuffy]

I have a brew buddy that I swap beers with a lot and he loves this Northy Quad kit. He brews exclusively extract and transfers to a secondary for 3 mos like the instructions say, primes the entire batch in yet another bucket to bottle and then conditions in 1 liter clamp-tops for at least another month. That is always a killer quad and doesn't reach the top of it's form until about 4-6 months. He whipped out one that was a year old recently and it was excellent.

It's a Westvleteren 12 clone and I have considered brewing a grain version of this myself, but geez, it's a $75 kit.

 

[Dancy]

I really don’t understand why sellers of kits don’t revise their brewing instructions to eliminate the secondary vessel fermentation. That would require little effort. As has been stated numerous times, with few exceptions (such as fruit added to secondary), secondary fermentation has little to no added value. For literally several years now, I have seen this come up very frequently as a newbie question, understandably so.

 

[Bobby_M]

Couple nuance clarifications/recommendations:

1. If the fermenter you plan to rack to for the secondary aging portion is not stainless steel with a positive seal, or a glass carboy, I wouldn't do it.
2. If you take the advice to leave it in the primary fermenter for an extended time, I wouldn't recommend much longer than 5-6 weeks. Not because of carbonation issues, but rather just oxidation concerns especially if it's just an HDPE bucket. Leave it there until it's pretty clear and get it in the bottles.
3. Regardless of how long it sits, a bit of CBC-1 yeast into the bottling bucket is a pretty good policy to ensure carbonation with such a high ABV. That's an expensive possible fail waiting to happen.

 

[mac_1103]

I really don’t understand why sellers of kits don’t revise their brewing instructions to eliminate the secondary vessel fermentation.

Here's a direct quote from the instructions for another one of their kits:

"You may skip transferring to a secondary fermentor and simply leave the beer in the primary fermentor."

But this is not a secondary fermentation. It's three months of bulk aging. The only change they should make to the instructions is to not call it a secondary fermentation.

 

[mac_1103]

Couple nuance clarifications/recommendations:

1. If the fermenter you plan to rack to for the secondary aging portion is not stainless steel with a positive seal, or a glass carboy, I wouldn't do it.

Since you sell a kit for a similar beer, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the OP's original question about any differences between three months of aging in bulk vs in the bottles. Thanks.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I have a brew buddy that I swap beers with a lot and he loves this Northy Quad kit. He brews exclusively extract and transfers to a secondary for 3 mos like the instructions say, primes the entire batch in yet another bucket to bottle and then conditions in 1 liter clamp-tops for at least another month. That is always a killer quad and doesn't reach the top of it's form until about 4-6 months. He whipped out one that was a year old recently and it was excellent.

Back in #1, @_Keven mentioned a concern around lack of carbonation.

My guess is the yeast goes dormant when sitting in secondary for so long causing the lack of carbonation in the bottle.

@Snuffy : did your buddy leave you with any insights that would help with @_Keven 's carbonation concerns? What strain(s) of yeast did your buddy use? What was the aging / bottle conditioning process that your buddy used?

"Ambient" temperature for aging / conditioning is a consideration here - as FL (houses often with no basements) and WI (houses often with basements) often have "ambient" seasonal temperature ranges are likely to be meaningfully different.

 

[Bobby_M]

Since you sell a kit for a similar beer, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the OP's original question about any differences between three months of aging in bulk vs in the bottles. Thanks.

The benefit of bulk aging is flocculation of excess or dead yeast, proteins, and the reduction of VDKs and precursors, and off gassing Sulphur that would get trapped in final packaging. I think it's a calculated risk based on oxygen exposure likelihood because attempting to reduce off flavors while creating an irreversible new one is counterproductive.

I don't have my kit quad instruction sheet handy but I think that we recommend 4 weeks in primary before bottling as a reasonable middle ground.

 

[Snuffy]

Back in #1, @_Keven mentioned a concern around lack of carbonation.



@Snuffy : did your buddy leave you with any insights that would help with @_Keven 's carbonation concerns? What strain(s) of yeast did your buddy use? What was the aging / bottle conditioning process that your buddy used?

"Ambient" temperature for aging / conditioning is a consideration here - as FL (houses often with no basements) and WI (houses often with basements) often have "ambient" seasonal temperature ranges are likely to be meaningfully different.

He’s a dry yeast guy so he uses 2 packs of BE 256 for 5 gal. He adds no additional bottling yeast that I know of. He has kind of a wine cellar area at the back of his downstairs that stays pretty cool where he stores his brew and fermenters. I’ve talked to him before about attempting to reduce air exposure in his process but he says the results speak for themselves - and with this kit I’d have to agree. Maybe dark malty beers are able to mask off flavors better. Or maybe the off flavors are just part of the whole. Anyway, I’ve seen no lack of carbonation. Comes out about like you’d expect a stout to carbonate.

 

[johnsonpvb17]

Couple nuance clarifications/recommendations:

1. If the fermenter you plan to rack to for the secondary aging portion is not stainless steel with a positive seal, or a glass carboy, I wouldn't do it.
2. If you take the advice to leave it in the primary fermenter for an extended time, I wouldn't recommend much longer than 5-6 weeks. Not because of carbonation issues, but rather just oxidation concerns especially if it's just an HDPE bucket. Leave it there until it's pretty clear and get it in the bottles.
3. Regardless of how long it sits, a bit of CBC-1 yeast into the bottling bucket is a pretty good policy to ensure carbonation with such a high ABV. That's an expensive possible fail waiting to happen.

Hello, I'm an old beer drinker but new at brewing, and find these forums very helpful.

My general plan/practice, after brewing four all grain five gallon G30 brews of Northern Brewer Quads and Strong ales as a starting point, is to:

1) Pressure transfer into a cleaned sanitized CO2 keg at 15 days from the GF Conical, skipping a "secondary",
2) Top off with ~8 psi CO2, then let sit/condition at 70 degrees for 12-16 weeks,
3) Then cool to 36 degrees and CO2 force carbonate to ~2.4 vols in the beer fridge for ~2 weeks,
4) Hope for the best, then try it out.

I had very few issues with bottle conditioning/carbonating small extract batches, and the beer was generally OK, but really wanted to get away from that whole process.

My question is, am I wasting my time or is this way off base?

Thanks for any opinions or advice.

 

[hotbeer]

Sounds good to me. What might you think is off base in any way?

 

[johnsonpvb17]

Sounds good to me. What might you think is off base in any way?

Thanks for the encouragement.

I think it's generally in the ballpark but have yet to try any of the four batches.

There seems to be a rather wide range of ways to make beer.

 

[hotbeer]

There seems to be a rather wide range of ways to make beer.

Not just lots of ways to make beer, but lots of ways to make good beer!

It use to confuse me when I first started reading about beer making and particularly here on the forums. Eventually the light bulb lit up and then things started making more sense.

You can make it as simple or as complicated as you wish. Whichever gives you more enjoyment.