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question about using candi sugar

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glorifiedbusdriver

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I am making a Belgian Tripel soon and I plan on using 2 lbs. of candi sugar after a few days of fermentation. How do I use this stuff? It looks like rocks. After placing this in water, is it going to dissolve? I was told to boil this for 15 minutes in a small amount of water. How much is a small amount of water? 1/4 gallon? Do I have to worry about caramalization when using too little water?
Thanks for any input.

Charlie
 

RoaringBrewer

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I assume you are adding it after a few days of fermentation as to 'step up' the amount of fermentables without stressing the yeast too much?

You can just add it to the boil I think, but obviously it will up your gravity and you should have a nice healthy yeast starter (read: one pinter probably isn't going to do it) if you are making a dubbel or tripel or something....

Adding late doesn't sound like a bad idea though. I'd assume you could get away with maybe 1/2g of water for the 2lb? And maybe account for this additional 1/2g in your original plan - e.g. make sure you only have 5g in the fermenter, 5.5 after the late candi sugar add...
 

FatMonsters

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As RoaringBrewer said, 1/2 gal should do it for the 2 .lbs. Just stir it really well when you add it to the boiling water so that the rocks don't just sit on the bottom of the pot at the flame. They dissolve quite fast, at least they did for me.
 

Screw991le

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I have just tried a Belgian Strong Ale. I used 1/2 lb of Dark Belgian Candy in the wort boil. I let you know in a few months how it taste.
 

RoaringBrewer

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One more note on candi-sugar... Make sure you make the decision between amber and clear depending upon the color you desire for your brew. I was surprised how much darker the amber candi will make your beer (according to beersmith software at least) - which is totally fine, there are darker belgians obviously, but... The clear shouldn't effect color at all...
 

cheezydemon

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I have read several places that the Belgians are laughing at us for paying high prices for candy sugar that actually makes no difference.

BYO had an article on it.
 

foxtrot

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I placed a pound of candi sugar (rocks) into a hop bag and let it dangle about 1/2 way into the brew pot (during the boil). Dissolves in less than 5 minutes and avoids burning on bottom of pot.
 

mr x

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cheezydemon said:
I have read several places that the Belgians are laughing at us for paying high prices for candy sugar that actually makes no difference.

BYO had an article on it.
From what I have read, the clear stuff is just table sugar.
 

Rhoobarb

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mr x said:
From what I have read, the clear stuff is just table sugar.
It's all just table sugar. I make my own. The color just depends on how long you 'cook' it. I use this method, however, do not use wax paper! It'll stick to wax paper. Pay the extra few cents at the grocery store and get a roll of parchment paper.
 

RoaringBrewer

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Yeah, I think I am going to attempt to make 2lb. of my own very-light amber (aka near clear) candi sugar for the tripel I'll be brewing in a few weeks.

Sure beats $10-14 for 2lb at the LHBS... and the lighter the color, the less time cooking, so shouldn't even take me that long! w00t
 

Ryanh1801

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whats you OG on the beer? Two pounds is a lot of simple sugar, unless its a really big brew. Side note, I would rather use other sources of simple sugar than candi sugar, its just too dang expensive. Sugar in the raw is awesome in Belgium beers.
 

RoaringBrewer

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Ryanh1801 said:
whats you OG on the beer? Two pounds is a lot of simple sugar, unless its a really big brew. Side note, I would rather use other sources of simple sugar than candi sugar, its just too dang expensive. Sugar in the raw is awesome in Belgium beers.
Talking to me? If I get what I've got a few batches straight efficiency-wise, right around 1.095-1.097. 15lb grain, 2 lb candi-sugar (so its 11.8% of the fermentables)... 9.5% ABV or so brew... I modeled my tripel recipe after the Stoudt's Tripel brewed here in Adamstown, PA. They don't mention candi-sugar, but I thought what the heck...

Anyway, that tripel is sooo smooth for 10% ABV and they have a lot of good info on their site that makes a 'clone' somewhat possible.

And as I noted, I would make the candi myself. Kind of been looking forward to doing it anyway...

EDIT: FWIW, here's the recipe -

Estimated OG: 1.097 SG
Estimated Color: 8.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 37.6 IBU

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
10.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 58.8 %
3.50 lb Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 23.5 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 5.9 %
0.50 oz Warrior [15.00%] (60 min) Hops 19.6 IBU
0.50 oz Pearle [8.00%] (60 min) Hops 10.4 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer [4.80%] (15 min) Hops 4.5 IBU
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00%] (10 min) Hops 2.1 IBU
2.00 lb Candi Sugar, Clear (0.5 SRM) Sugar 11.8 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [Starter or Cake-pitch]
 

mr x

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Rhoobarb said:
It's all just table sugar. I make my own. The color just depends on how long you 'cook' it. I use this method, however, do not use wax paper! It'll stick to wax paper. Pay the extra few cents at the grocery store and get a roll of parchment paper.
I have used that web info to cook my own, but I found it the times listed there way overcooked my sugar. I use silicon cupcake trays to make pucks out of the sugar. I have also used silicon loaf pans.
 

Rhoobarb

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mr x said:
I have used that web info to cook my own, but I found it the times listed there way overcooked my sugar. ...
Yeah, I go with temp and visual.
 

HP_Lovecraft

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cheezydemon said:
I have read several places that the Belgians are laughing at us for paying high prices for candy sugar that actually makes no difference.
I've read some places that most Belgian brewers use simple inverted sugar, which is Fructose/Glucose, not Sucrose like the Candi-sugar. (Inverted Sugar doesnt crystalize).

It makes me wonder if it really makes a difference, as both are nearly 100% fermentable. The yeast has to borrow nutrients from the malt in order to ferment the sugar, but maybe it doesnt need as much to ferment glucose, over sucrose? since the sucrose has to be first converted to glucose, then to alcohol/co2.

I've never really noticed a difference. I use inverted just because it seems to at least mimmick the Belgian process. Even if they are laughing at us... ;)

nick
 

RoaringBrewer

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HP_Lovecraft said:
I've read some places that most Belgian brewers use simple inverted sugar, which is Fructose/Glucose, not Sucrose like the Candi-sugar. (Inverted Sugar doesnt crystalize).

It makes me wonder if it really makes a difference, as both are nearly 100% fermentable. The yeast has to borrow nutrients from the malt in order to ferment the sugar, but maybe it doesnt need as much to ferment glucose, over sucrose? since the sucrose has to be first converted to glucose, then to alcohol/co2.

I've never really noticed a difference. I use inverted just because it seems to at least mimmick the Belgian process. Even if they are laughing at us... ;)

nick
Am I missing something here?

The table sugar you use to make the candi-sugar is sucrose, no? Before the chemical reaction. Then after you add the citric acid and heat (the chemical reaction), the sucrose bonds break, and reform so to speak to create the candi-sugar which is invert... fructose/glucose. No? Above you are saying the candi-sugar is sucrose. It starts as sucrose and becomes the invert you described though... So table sugar is sucrose, candi-sugar is invert, right? Or are you talking about a liquid invert sugar (that doesn't crystallize)... ?

I don't know how much difference it makes other than you are breaking the bonds of the sucrose, creating more easily fermented glucose/fructose, prior to fermentation. Thus you are saving the yeast work from breaking the bonds... Or can yeast not break down the bonds and thus the sucrose is less fermentable?

Isn't that the point of the candi sugar, whether you buy it or make it yourself?

EDIT: To quote the website referenced above:
Franklin State Website said:
Basically, candi sugar is ordinary white cane/beet sugar (sucrose) that has been modified by an 'inversion' process, producing 'invert sugar'.

You can make your own 'invert sugar' from ordinary table sugar with just a few simple items. Sucrose is made up of two simpler sugars (glucose and fructose) joined together. Yeast must spend time and effort breaking the joining bonds to allow them to get at the simple sugars they need for metabolism. This can be done chemically in an acid environment with heat.
 

adx

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I made a 1 lb of my own candi sugar for my Belgian that's in primary right now. I used my fry thermometer and poured it into a sheet pan with a silicone mat. The only mistake I made was not leaving it in the fridge long enough. Other then that it turned out good and only set me back the cost of 1 lb of table sugar.
 

batesjer

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RoaringBrewer said:
Yeah, I think I am going to attempt to make 2lb. of my own very-light amber (aka near clear) candi sugar for the tripel I'll be brewing in a few weeks.

Sure beats $10-14 for 2lb at the LHBS... and the lighter the color, the less time cooking, so shouldn't even take me that long! w00t
sucrose / table sugar / cane sugar
Sucrose is a disaccharide composed of one molecule of glucose and one of fructose. More precisely, it is dextrose plus dextrorotary fructose. It must be broken apart before the yeasts can use it. When heated in an acidic solution (such as wort) the sugar is inverted to make D-(+)-glucose and D-(-)-fructose. Yeasts will invert the sucrose if it is not already in that form before using by using invertase.

Maybe I'm just confused by the fact that this is the third thread on candi sugar and no one (including myself) seems to understand the classification. The way I understand it is that clear candi sugar is a waste of money to purchase and a waste of time to make ahead of time. Since beet sugar and table sugar is just sucrose, all you need to do is invert the the sugar before feeding it to the yeast. In order to invert sucrose it most be heated in an acidic solution. This can be accomplished by heating sucrose, water, and citric acid or by heating sucrose in the wort itself. So why bother buying or making clear candi sugar? Don't you get the same result by putting any form of sucrose (table sugar, beet sugar) into your wort (an acidic solution) at the beginning of the boil?
 

adx

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You cannot just toss sugar into the boil. The reaction to invert the the sucrose into fructose and glucose does not occur until the soft crack stage (265F - 275F). Since wort is mostly water you're not going to get much above 212F during the boil.
 

batesjer

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adx said:
You cannot just toss sugar into the boil. The reaction to invert the the sucrose into fructose and glucose does not occur until the soft crack stage (265F - 275F). Since wort is mostly water you're not going to get much above 212F during the boil.
Inverted sugar syrup can be easily made by adding roughly one gram of citric acid or ascorbic acid, per kilogram of sugar. Cream of tartar (one gram per kilogram) or fresh lemon juice (10 milliliters per kilogram) may also be used. The mixture is boiled for 20 minutes, and will convert enough of the sucrose to effectively prevent crystallization, without giving a noticeably sour taste. Invert sugar syrup may also be produced without the use of acids or enzymes by thermal means alone: two parts granulated sucrose and one part water simmered for five to seven minutes will convert a modest portion to invert sugar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup

If I'm wrong, that's fine, I'd just like to see a source. The reason for heating the sugar to that temperature is to reach the hard-crack stage, or rather the stage where so much moisture has been forced out of the solution that the molecules form stable bonds. But I've never heard any state that in order to invert sugar it must reach a certain temperature, only a boil which is a lot lower temperature then what is required to create hard candy. After all a sugar syrup can be inverted, isn't this what most Belgian breweries use nowadays?
 

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Just read this whole topic and thought I might hijack it for my own purpose instead of starting another topic. When's the best time to add the candi? When I'm boiling the grain, when I add the malt extract, two or three days into it?

If I'm adding two or three days into it whould I boil it in a quart of water to sanitise and dissolve the crystal?
 

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Just read this whole topic and thought I might hijack it for my own purpose instead of starting another topic. When's the best time to add the candi? When I'm boiling the grain, when I add the malt extract, two or three days into it?

If I'm adding two or three days into it whould I boil it in a quart of water to sanitise and dissolve the crystal?
You don't boil grain, so that's out. (You can steep grains, however, but you still wouldn't put the sugar in there). You can add it at the end of the boil, or you can add it later into fermentation. I think most people add it to the end of the boil, at about 15 minutes left.
 

imaguitargod

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You don't boil grain, so that's out. (You can steep grains, however, but you still wouldn't put the sugar in there). You can add it at the end of the boil, or you can add it later into fermentation. I think most people add it to the end of the boil, at about 15 minutes left.
Sorry, ment to say steep grains...still trying to engrain the correct terms into my every day vocabulary. :eek:

Thanks for your answer.
 
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