question about ro/distilled water and ph

[zodiak3000]

when i first started with ro/distilled water i assumed i would be able to keep my mash/sparge ph in check with simple additions of calcium chloride and sulfate. now when i add my numbers from recipe into the EZ water calculator it looks like a cant get below 5.6 unless i add acidulated malt or lactic acid. the residual alkalinity is below 0, but how important is the ph? i have a tannin issue and i believe the ro i get from the machine is not really ro. im gonna start with distilled water jugs and see if it changes, keeping the ppm of both minerals to about 80. but should i be adding anything else to lower the ph?

 

[Yooper]

when i first started with ro/distilled water i assumed i would be able to keep my mash/sparge ph in check with simple additions of calcium chloride and sulfate. now when i add my numbers from recipe into the EZ water calculator it looks like a cant get below 5.6 unless i add acidulated malt or lactic acid. the residual alkalinity is below 0, but how important is the ph? i have a tannin issue and i believe the ro i get from the machine is not really ro. im gonna start with distilled water jugs and see if it changes, keeping the ppm of both minerals to about 80. but should i be adding anything else to lower the ph?

pH is crucial.

In a lighter colored beer, it's usually necessary to add some acid to the mash to get a proper pH.

I'd skip EZ water, and try either bru'nwater or brewersfriend. Both are free to use. EZ water ALWAYS estimates my pH incorrectly, no matter what. The other two spreadsheets are usually very close.

Bru'nwater has a learning curve for sure, but even if you don't use the spreadsheet, the information on water and ions in there is so helpful that I still read it and refer to it.

Don't target 80 ppm as an amount for both sulfate and chloride. That is not going to be appropriate for most (if any) beers. We can help you target an appropriate amount, depending on what you're making.

 

[zodiak3000]

pH is crucial.

In a lighter colored beer, it's usually necessary to add some acid to the mash to get a proper pH.

I'd skip EZ water, and try either bru'nwater or brewersfriend. Both are free to use. EZ water ALWAYS estimates my pH incorrectly, no matter what. The other two spreadsheets are usually very close.

Bru'nwater has a learning curve for sure, but even if you don't use the spreadsheet, the information on water and ions in there is so helpful that I still read it and refer to it.

Don't target 80 ppm as an amount for both sulfate and chloride. That is not going to be appropriate for most (if any) beers. We can help you target an appropriate amount, depending on what you're making.

thanks ill give bru'n water a shot. just curious though, why do you think 80 ppm of each is inappropriate? palmer recommends this as simple standard for most beer styles. also, firestone walker targets 100 ppm of each for most of their beers. i understand taste is subjective and some minerals do better for certain styles, but i cant see how i would ever want 350 ppm of sulfate for my IPA's. just having straight 50 ppm of chloride for a bo pils to me is crucial though. i use 80 somewhat as a baseline, ive done it with pales/ipa's with pretty good results for my tastes.

 

[BigEd]

thanks ill give bru'n water a shot. just curious though, why do you think 80 ppm of each is inappropriate? palmer recommends this as simple standard for most beer styles. also, firestone walker targets 100 ppm of each for most of their beers. i understand taste is subjective and some minerals do better for certain styles, but i cant see how i would ever want 350 ppm of sulfate for my IPA's. just having straight 50 ppm of chloride for a bo pils to me is crucial though. i use 80 somewhat as a baseline, ive done it with pales/ipa's with pretty good results for my tastes.

In the first post you seem to be asking for help and when Yooper gives it now you say you're happy with what you're doing. Using 80ppm of both Cl- and SO4- for all beers is a vast oversimplification. While you may be pleased with those results at this point it's a long way from the optimum advice IMO.

One thing that has not been addressed is the assumption that RO and distilled water give you the same starting point. In many cases they do not. From other discussions and problems mentioned by other homebrewers RO water can be all over the map in terms of its ion content, especially carbonates. This can have a huge effect on the mash pH. Unless you know exactly what the ion base levels of your water source is you cannot precisely determine what and how much is necessary to modify to obtain the proper mash pH result. If you have a tannin issue it's quite possible your base water has more alkalinity than you think it has.

 

[butterpants]

I use a single addition of one teaspoon of 10% Phosphoric acid to all of my strike water.

I then add Calcium Carbonate or Calcium Sulfate (or both) depending on the style (cacl2 for malt forward, caso4 hop forward but no so4 with noble hops) and ingredients, using R/O water.

This is pretty much Gordon Strong's advice in Brewing Better Beer and has served me well..... from medals to proper mash and final beer ph.

 

[zodiak3000]

In the first post you seem to be asking for help and when Yooper gives it now you say you're happy with what you're doing. Using 80ppm of both Cl- and SO4- for all beers is a vast oversimplification. While you may be pleased with those results at this point it's a long way from the optimum advice IMO.

One thing that has not been addressed is the assumption that RO and distilled water give you the same starting point. In many cases they do not. From other discussions and problems mentioned by other homebrewers RO water can be all over the map in terms of its ion content, especially carbonates. This can have a huge effect on the mash pH. Unless you know exactly what the ion base levels of your water source is you cannot precisely determine what and how much is necessary to modify to obtain the proper mash pH result. If you have a tannin issue it's quite possible your base water has more alkalinity than you think it has.

if you read my initial post my problem is from possible tannins from ph, not the mineral additions. i have had great luck in the past with mineral additions and ro. the problem i believe now is the ro i use isnt a blank slate as it should be (sketchy water machine). your right, i believe the levels in my so called ro water are all over the place and i dont have the time to have it tested. as such, i will start now with distilled so i can be sure my content. ill probably add around 4oz of acidulated malt to keep ph in check based of calculations. also, i was simply asking yooper why she thought 80 ppm was not appropriate. if such a great brewery like FW does 100ppm for the majority of their beers i dont see a problem.

 

[zodiak3000]

I use a single addition of one teaspoon of 10% Phosphoric acid to all of my strike water.

I then add Calcium Carbonate or Calcium Sulfate (or both) depending on the style (cacl2 for malt forward, caso4 hop forward but no so4 with noble hops) and ingredients, using R/O water.

This is pretty much Gordon Strong's advice in Brewing Better Beer and has served me well..... from medals to proper mash and final beer ph.

good advice, thanks