Question about measurements - Pilsner

[zosimus]

I bought ingredients for a pilsner recipe and was going to downsize, as I believed it to be for a 5 gallon recipe, but I actually can't find on the recipe page what the yield is for the recipe.
The recipe calls for 7 Ibs of pilsner malt + 1.5 pounds dry malt extract and like total 8 gallons of water. I'm guessing this means it is for a 5 gallon recipe due to water loss in boiling? Does anyone know if this sounds about right?

My largest fermenter is 3 gallons so I was going to do that and calculate and downsize the recipe.

Also does anyone know how much water will boil off for a 1 gallon recipe or 3 gallon?

 

[Dland]

Besides the boil off loss, there is water used in grain absorption and often some allowance for some water left behind with trub that is kept out of the fermentor.

7#s grain and 1.5 dry does sound about right for a 5 gallon batch.

If you want some help figuring how much water is used by boil off, grain absorption and other factors, a brewing program such as Homebrewer's Friend can be helpful until you get comfortable with the ratios and particularities with your brewing rig.

I'll ad an un asked for recipe comment the Pilsner; Skip the dry malt and use the 7# pils malt, should be about the right amount for 3 gallons of Pilsner.

 

[MaxStout]

8 gallons of strike water sounds about right for a 5 gallon batch. Boiloff depends on a few factors, like intensity of boil, geometry of the kettle (a wide kettle will boil off faster than a tall kettle), and length of boil. Some people recommend a 90 minute boil for wort derived from from pilsner malt, others manage well with 60 minutes. Absorption in grain and hops will take some of your water.

Experimentation is the best way to dial in your volumes, gravity, etc. Keep good notes of your volumes along the way. Brewing programs can give you a good estimate, but some times, volumes end up a little high or low. If so, you can adjust amounts in your profile in the program.

 

[zosimus]

Besides the boil off loss, there is water used in grain absorption and often some allowance for some water left behind with trub that is kept out of the fermentor.

7#s grain and 1.5 dry does sound about right for a 5 gallon batch.

If you want some help figuring how much water is used by boil off, grain absorption and other factors, a brewing program such as Homebrewer's Friend can be helpful until you get comfortable with the ratios and particularities with your brewing rig.

I'll ad an un asked for recipe comment the Pilsner; Skip the dry malt and use the 7# pils malt, should be about the right amount for 3 gallons of Pilsner.

Dang I would, but I only got about 5 LB grain. Homebrew store is a bit far... I'll have to do that next time..is the flavor just better using just the grain?

 

[doug293cz]

Are you using a traditional mash tun, or BIAB? Sparging method, if any? What volume do you want to actually put into the fermenter? Any idea about OG target?

Brew on

 

[zosimus]

Are you using a traditional mash tun, or BIAB? Sparging method, if any? What volume do you want to actually put into the fermenter? Any idea about OG target?

Brew on

Pretty new to brewing, but I was going to BIAB in a pot and regulate temperature on home stove then do sparge just with strainer and mesh bag. In the past I've used brew kits and typically they have you boil some extra water to sparge and then pour wort over grains a few times. Was thinking of doing that.

I don't have target OG and was looking to put close to 3 gallons in fermenter.

 

[zosimus]

Are you using a traditional mash tun, or BIAB? Sparging method, if any? What volume do you want to actually put into the fermenter? Any idea about OG target?

Brew on

The recipe calls to mash in 2.5 gallon water (for the 5 gallon yield)

I should probably reduce that. I'm going to have to the math. Idk if it would be a direct 1/1 for that...
Then it says to do sparge with 3 gallons water heated to 190. It doesn't say to do sparge like I was going to do, but to just pour directly onto the mash (in bag).
Then to top off to 6.5 gallons for boil

 

[doug293cz]

Pretty new to brewing, but I was going to BIAB in a pot and regulate temperature on home stove then do sparge just with strainer and mesh bag. In the past I've used brew kits and typically they have you boil some extra water to sparge and then pour wort over grains a few times. Was thinking of doing that.

I don't have target OG and was looking to put close to 3 gallons in fermenter.

Pouring wort over the grain does nothing useful. Pouring clean water over the drained grain rinses more sugar from the grain. If you have another vessel (a 5 gal bucket will work) doing a dunk sparge after draining the bag is more consistent, and effective than doing a pour over sparge. Just drain the bag well (optionally squeeze the bag after draining to improve efficiency), lower the bag into the sparge water in the bucket, open the bag and stir everything aggressively for a couple of minutes, lift and drain the bag well (optionally squeeze the bag to improve efficiency.) If you only want to squeeze once, then after the initial drain is better than after the sparge drain.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

The recipe calls to mash in 2.5 gallon water (for the 5 gallon yield)

I should probably reduce that. I'm going to have to the math. Idk if it would be a direct 1/1 for that...
Then it says to do sparge with 3 gallons water heated to 190. It doesn't say to do sparge like I was going to do, but to just pour directly onto the mash (in bag).
Then to top off to 6.5 gallons for boil

Many kit directions are garbage. The only time you want to use less water for mashing than sparging, is if you are doing a fly, or continuous, sparge. Pouring sparge water over a drained bag is not a real fly sparge (the explanation is rather long.) For BIAB with a dunk sparge, you want to use about 60% of your total water for mashing, and 40% for the dunk sparge. Also, topping off prior to, or after, boil will result in lower efficiency than using the full amount of water for mashing and sparging. The only time topping off makes sense is if your boil vessel does not have enough capacity for a full volume boil.

Brew on

 

[zosimus]

Many kit directions are garbage. The only time you want to use less water for mashing than sparging, is if you are doing a fly, or continuous, sparge. Pouring sparge water over a drained bag is not a real fly sparge (the explanation is rather long.) For BIAB with a dunk sparge, you want to use about 60% of your total water for mashing, and 40% for the dunk sparge. Also, topping off prior to, or after, boil will result in lower efficiency than using the full amount of water for mashing and sparging. The only time topping off makes sense is if your boil vessel does not have enough capacity for a full volume boil.

Brew on

Awesome! Thanks for the pro-tips.
Im looking at Brewers Friend and looking at about pre 5.25 boil size for 3 gallons. Is that like total? Will I lose any for the mash or should I add more?
I am going to do 90ish minute boil
If I do based on the recipe it looks like 4.2lb for grain and then 0.9 lb for light dry malt extract.

Does that sound about right? I suppose I could do a bit more

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

...Just drain the bag well (optionally squeeze the bag after draining to improve efficiency)...

@zosimus: Get yourself a pair of insulated rubber gloves (google: "brewer's gloves") and squeeze the HELL outta that bag-o-grain, like it owes you money!

 

[doug293cz]

Awesome! Thanks for the pro-tips.
Im looking at Brewers Friend and looking at about pre 5.25 boil size for 3 gallons. Is that like total? Will I lose any for the mash or should I add more?
I am going to do 90ish minute boil
If I do based on the recipe it looks like 4.2lb for grain and then 0.9 lb for light dry malt extract.

Does that sound about right? I suppose I could do a bit more

Ok, if we assume a "to fermenter" volume of 3.0 gal, and 0.25 gal of trub left in the BK, then the required post-boil volume is 3.25 gal. Also, assuming a 1.0 gal/hr boil-off rate, a 90 minute boil would boil off 1.5 gal, so we need a pre-boil volume of 4.75 gal. Might as well use all 5.0 lb of your grain, and save the DME to boost the OG if your conversion efficiency is lower than expected. At 0.1 gal/lb grain absorption rate (typical for a moderately well drained bag, or a less well drained bag with a light squeeze after initial drain and sparge) would mean we lose 0.5 gal to grain absorption, so we need to start with 5.25 gal of total brewing water. Since you plan on doing a dunk sparge, 3.0 gal for mashing, and 2.25 gal for sparging should work nicely (and give you a reasonable mash thickness of 2.4 qt/lb.

Now if you get 100% conversion efficiency (all available starch converted to sugar during the mash) your end of mash wort SG should be ~1.054. And you will collect 2.5 gal of this wort. Sparging with 2.25 gal of water will result in a sparged wort SG of ~1.014. You should collect 2.25 gal of sparged wort, as no additional grain absorption occurs during the sparge (the grain is already "saturated.") Combining the initial and sparged wort will give you 4.75 gal of wort at an SG of ~1.035. Boiling this 4.75 gal down to 3.25 gal will result in an OG of ~1.051 which seems reasonable for a pilsner.

Now, I'm assuming that you do not have your own grain mill, and are using grain milled by your supplier. Supplier crushes tend to be coarser than ideal for BIAB, so that brewers who use traditional 3-vessel systems don't have stuck mash/sparge issues. With these coarser crushes, it is quite common not to achieve 100% conversion efficiency with the typical 60 minute mash, so you might want to consider doing a 90 minute mash to increase conversion. If you have a refractometer, you can monitor the SG of the wort during the mash, and stop mashing when you reach the max possible SG (1.054 in this case.) Or, you can just start checking the wort SG every 15 minutes after 60 minutes of mashing, and stop the mash when the SG of the wort stops increasing. (Your SG might be lower than predicted if your enzymes crap out, or your malt's potential is less than the typical 37 pts/lb assumed in the calculations above.)

I used my mash and lauter prediction spreadsheet to do the above calculations.

Brew on

 

[zosimus]

Many kit directions are garbage. The only time you want to use less water for mashing than sparging, is if you are doing a fly, or continuous, sparge. Pouring sparge water over a drained bag is not a real fly sparge (the explanation is rather long.) For BIAB with a dunk sparge, you want to use about 60% of your total water for mashing, and 40% for the dunk sparge. Also, topping off prior to, or after, boil will result in lower efficiency than using the full amount of water for mashing and sparging. The only time topping off makes sense is if your boil vessel does not have enough capacity for a full volume boil.

Brew on

Erm so I realized as I'm doing the mash that I do not have a big enough pot for 5.25 gallon..I am guessing mine is like 5 gallons total.... Not sure how to course correct. I guess I will dump some of the sparge water and do a dunk

 

[zosimus]

Ok, if we assume a "to fermenter" volume of 3.0 gal, and 0.25 gal of trub left in the BK, then the required post-boil volume is 3.25 gal. Also, assuming a 1.0 gal/hr boil-off rate, a 90 minute boil would boil off 1.5 gal, so we need a pre-boil volume of 4.75 gal. Might as well use all 5.0 lb of your grain, and save the DME to boost the OG if your conversion efficiency is lower than expected. At 0.1 gal/lb grain absorption rate (typical for a moderately well drained bag, or a less well drained bag with a light squeeze after initial drain and sparge) would mean we lose 0.5 gal to grain absorption, so we need to start with 5.25 gal of total brewing water. Since you plan on doing a dunk sparge, 3.0 gal for mashing, and 2.25 gal for sparging should work nicely (and give you a reasonable mash thickness of 2.4 qt/lb.

Now if you get 100% conversion efficiency (all available starch converted to sugar during the mash) your end of mash wort SG should be ~1.054. And you will collect 2.5 gal of this wort. Sparging with 2.25 gal of water will result in a sparged wort SG of ~1.014. You should collect 2.25 gal of sparged wort, as no additional grain absorption occurs during the sparge (the grain is already "saturated.") Combining the initial and sparged wort will give you 4.75 gal of wort at an SG of ~1.035. Boiling this 4.75 gal down to 3.25 gal will result in an OG of ~1.051 which seems reasonable for a pilsner.

Now, I'm assuming that you do not have your own grain mill, and are using grain milled by your supplier. Supplier crushes tend to be coarser than ideal for BIAB, so that brewers who use traditional 3-vessel systems don't have stuck mash/sparge issues. With these coarser crushes, it is quite common not to achieve 100% conversion efficiency with the typical 60 minute mash, so you might want to consider doing a 90 minute mash to increase conversion. If you have a refractometer, you can monitor the SG of the wort during the mash, and stop mashing when you reach the max possible SG (1.054 in this case.) Or, you can just start checking the wort SG every 15 minutes after 60 minutes of mashing, and stop the mash when the SG of the wort stops increasing. (Your SG might be lower than predicted if your enzymes crap out, or your malt's potential is less than the typical 37 pts/lb assumed in the calculations above.)

I used my mash and lauter prediction spreadsheet to do the above calculations.

Brew on

I responded below before I read this message.
But mashing now 3.15 gallon water and I have 2.1 gallons for sparge.

I am going to check gravity now that I'm midway through mash and see if it changes, thanks for that tip.

 

[zosimus]

Ok, if we assume a "to fermenter" volume of 3.0 gal, and 0.25 gal of trub left in the BK, then the required post-boil volume is 3.25 gal. Also, assuming a 1.0 gal/hr boil-off rate, a 90 minute boil would boil off 1.5 gal, so we need a pre-boil volume of 4.75 gal. Might as well use all 5.0 lb of your grain, and save the DME to boost the OG if your conversion efficiency is lower than expected. At 0.1 gal/lb grain absorption rate (typical for a moderately well drained bag, or a less well drained bag with a light squeeze after initial drain and sparge) would mean we lose 0.5 gal to grain absorption, so we need to start with 5.25 gal of total brewing water. Since you plan on doing a dunk sparge, 3.0 gal for mashing, and 2.25 gal for sparging should work nicely (and give you a reasonable mash thickness of 2.4 qt/lb.

Now if you get 100% conversion efficiency (all available starch converted to sugar during the mash) your end of mash wort SG should be ~1.054. And you will collect 2.5 gal of this wort. Sparging with 2.25 gal of water will result in a sparged wort SG of ~1.014. You should collect 2.25 gal of sparged wort, as no additional grain absorption occurs during the sparge (the grain is already "saturated.") Combining the initial and sparged wort will give you 4.75 gal of wort at an SG of ~1.035. Boiling this 4.75 gal down to 3.25 gal will result in an OG of ~1.051 which seems reasonable for a pilsner.

Now, I'm assuming that you do not have your own grain mill, and are using grain milled by your supplier. Supplier crushes tend to be coarser than ideal for BIAB, so that brewers who use traditional 3-vessel systems don't have stuck mash/sparge issues. With these coarser crushes, it is quite common not to achieve 100% conversion efficiency with the typical 60 minute mash, so you might want to consider doing a 90 minute mash to increase conversion. If you have a refractometer, you can monitor the SG of the wort during the mash, and stop mashing when you reach the max possible SG (1.054 in this case.) Or, you can just start checking the wort SG every 15 minutes after 60 minutes of mashing, and stop the mash when the SG of the wort stops increasing. (Your SG might be lower than predicted if your enzymes crap out, or your malt's potential is less than the typical 37 pts/lb assumed in the calculations above.)

I used my mash and lauter prediction spreadsheet to do the above calculations.

Brew on

Yeah a little low and I got 15 minutes left in mash. 1.03 SG

 

[zosimus]

Ok, if we assume a "to fermenter" volume of 3.0 gal, and 0.25 gal of trub left in the BK, then the required post-boil volume is 3.25 gal. Also, assuming a 1.0 gal/hr boil-off rate, a 90 minute boil would boil off 1.5 gal, so we need a pre-boil volume of 4.75 gal. Might as well use all 5.0 lb of your grain, and save the DME to boost the OG if your conversion efficiency is lower than expected. At 0.1 gal/lb grain absorption rate (typical for a moderately well drained bag, or a less well drained bag with a light squeeze after initial drain and sparge) would mean we lose 0.5 gal to grain absorption, so we need to start with 5.25 gal of total brewing water. Since you plan on doing a dunk sparge, 3.0 gal for mashing, and 2.25 gal for sparging should work nicely (and give you a reasonable mash thickness of 2.4 qt/lb.

Now if you get 100% conversion efficiency (all available starch converted to sugar during the mash) your end of mash wort SG should be ~1.054. And you will collect 2.5 gal of this wort. Sparging with 2.25 gal of water will result in a sparged wort SG of ~1.014. You should collect 2.25 gal of sparged wort, as no additional grain absorption occurs during the sparge (the grain is already "saturated.") Combining the initial and sparged wort will give you 4.75 gal of wort at an SG of ~1.035. Boiling this 4.75 gal down to 3.25 gal will result in an OG of ~1.051 which seems reasonable for a pilsner.

Now, I'm assuming that you do not have your own grain mill, and are using grain milled by your supplier. Supplier crushes tend to be coarser than ideal for BIAB, so that brewers who use traditional 3-vessel systems don't have stuck mash/sparge issues. With these coarser crushes, it is quite common not to achieve 100% conversion efficiency with the typical 60 minute mash, so you might want to consider doing a 90 minute mash to increase conversion. If you have a refractometer, you can monitor the SG of the wort during the mash, and stop mashing when you reach the max possible SG (1.054 in this case.) Or, you can just start checking the wort SG every 15 minutes after 60 minutes of mashing, and stop the mash when the SG of the wort stops increasing. (Your SG might be lower than predicted if your enzymes crap out, or your malt's potential is less than the typical 37 pts/lb assumed in the calculations above.)

I used my mash and lauter prediction spreadsheet to do the above calculations.

Brew on

So currently starting out the boil at about 1.03 gravity ( a little less)

 

[zosimus]

Ok, if we assume a "to fermenter" volume of 3.0 gal, and 0.25 gal of trub left in the BK, then the required post-boil volume is 3.25 gal. Also, assuming a 1.0 gal/hr boil-off rate, a 90 minute boil would boil off 1.5 gal, so we need a pre-boil volume of 4.75 gal. Might as well use all 5.0 lb of your grain, and save the DME to boost the OG if your conversion efficiency is lower than expected. At 0.1 gal/lb grain absorption rate (typical for a moderately well drained bag, or a less well drained bag with a light squeeze after initial drain and sparge) would mean we lose 0.5 gal to grain absorption, so we need to start with 5.25 gal of total brewing water. Since you plan on doing a dunk sparge, 3.0 gal for mashing, and 2.25 gal for sparging should work nicely (and give you a reasonable mash thickness of 2.4 qt/lb.

Now if you get 100% conversion efficiency (all available starch converted to sugar during the mash) your end of mash wort SG should be ~1.054. And you will collect 2.5 gal of this wort. Sparging with 2.25 gal of water will result in a sparged wort SG of ~1.014. You should collect 2.25 gal of sparged wort, as no additional grain absorption occurs during the sparge (the grain is already "saturated.") Combining the initial and sparged wort will give you 4.75 gal of wort at an SG of ~1.035. Boiling this 4.75 gal down to 3.25 gal will result in an OG of ~1.051 which seems reasonable for a pilsner.

Now, I'm assuming that you do not have your own grain mill, and are using grain milled by your supplier. Supplier crushes tend to be coarser than ideal for BIAB, so that brewers who use traditional 3-vessel systems don't have stuck mash/sparge issues. With these coarser crushes, it is quite common not to achieve 100% conversion efficiency with the typical 60 minute mash, so you might want to consider doing a 90 minute mash to increase conversion. If you have a refractometer, you can monitor the SG of the wort during the mash, and stop mashing when you reach the max possible SG (1.054 in this case.) Or, you can just start checking the wort SG every 15 minutes after 60 minutes of mashing, and stop the mash when the SG of the wort stops increasing. (Your SG might be lower than predicted if your enzymes crap out, or your malt's potential is less than the typical 37 pts/lb assumed in the calculations above.)

I used my mash and lauter prediction spreadsheet to do the above calculations.

Brew on

Actually a question about lagering,

Recipe says after fermentation to rack to second container and then set to room temp for 24 hours then to let lager for about 3-6 weeks. Unfortunately though I only have one fermentation vessel at that size (I suppose I could buy another but would prefer not).
Does lagering require you rack to second container? Reason is that my fermentation fridge is too small for anything bigger than a 3 gallon vessel and I don't have another vessel to rack to. I could rack back and forth, but don't want to expose to oxygen that much

 

[Dland]

Dang I would, but I only got about 5 LB grain. Homebrew store is a bit far... I'll have to do that next time..is the flavor just better using just the grain?

Five pounds should be fine for 3 gallons also, it just won't be as "high test", actually, it might be closer to most pilsners profiles. I just said use seven pounds because that is what you said you have. Weather best number would be 5 or 7 or something in between would also depend on the overall efficiency of your brew rig/system, which you can only find out by brewing some batches.

 

[Dland]

Actually a question about lagering,

Recipe says after fermentation to rack to second container and then set to room temp for 24 hours then to let lager for about 3-6 weeks. Unfortunately though I only have one fermentation vessel at that size (I suppose I could buy another but would prefer not).
Does lagering require you rack to second container? Reason is that my fermentation fridge is too small for anything bigger than a 3 gallon vessel and I don't have another vessel to rack to. I could rack back and forth, but don't want to expose to oxygen that much

Are you going to bottle it or keg it? If kegging it, rack into keg, prime or spund carbonate at room temp. When carbonation is finished, cold crash and lager for a while, 6 weeks is kind of bare minimum in my opinion, but it will be drinkable before that. Another option is to rack to kegs, cold crash and then force carbonate w CO2.

If you are bottling, add correct amount of priming sugar or malt, bottle it up, and let carbonate at room temp. When it has carbonated, cold crash and lager for a while, in other words, just put it in back of a cold refrigerator for as long as you are willing to lager it.

You do not need a secondary fermentor, and you are right be cautious about oxygen exposure.

 

[zosimus]

Are you going to bottle it or keg it? If kegging it, rack into keg, prime or spund carbonate at room temp. When carbonation is finished, cold crash and lager for a while, 6 weeks is kind of bare minimum in my opinion, but it will be drinkable before that. Another option is to rack to kegs, cold crash and then force carbonate w CO2.

If you are bottling, add correct amount of priming sugar or malt, bottle it up, and let carbonate at room temp. When it has carbonated, cold crash and lager for a while, in other words, just put it in back of a cold refrigerator for as you are willing to lager it.

You do not need a secondary fermentor, and you are right be cautious about oxygen exposure.

OG: 1.058
Pitched S-23 Lager yeast at 59 degreea
I guess I didn't read the directions too well so after. Sprinkling the yeast, I agitated the fermenter. Rather the directions said to agitate prior and then sprinkle yeast.
Do you know if this will have an effect?
I currently have it sitting at 48 degrees per recipe and don't see much bubbly activity im a little worried since yeast doesn't appear active yet.

I am reading 48 might be a little low-end for that yeast.

 

[Dland]

OG: 1.058
Pitched S-23 Lager yeast at 59 degreea
I guess I didn't read the directions too well so after. Sprinkling the yeast, I agitated the fermenter. Rather the directions said to agitate prior and then sprinkle yeast.
Do you know if this will have an effect?
I currently have it sitting at 48 degrees per recipe and don't see much bubbly activity im a little worried since yeast doesn't appear active yet.

I am reading 48 might be a little low-end for that yeast.

I always just sprinkle Fermentis yeast products on wort with no agitation. The instructions may want you to agitate it to add some O2 to wort, but this is not necessary with first pitch of Fermentis yeasts. If you re use some of the yeast for later batches, then getting some O2 in wort is good, but not for first or single use pitch of this yeast brand, as they ad something in coating that helps the yeast get going without additional O2.

1.058 is a respectable gravity, should be a nice hearty Pils. S-23 is not my favorite Fermetis lager yeast, but it can make good beer.

 

[zosimus]

I always just sprinkle Fermentis yeast products on wort with no agitation. The instructions may want you to agitate it to add some O2 to wort, but this is not necessary with first pitch of Fermentis yeasts. If you re use some of the yeast for later batches, then getting some O2 in wort is good, but not for first or single use pitch of this yeast brand, as they ad something in coating that helps the yeast get going without additional O2.

1.058 is a respectable gravity, should be a nice hearty Pils. S-23 is not my favorite Fermetis lager yeast, but it can make good beer.

Does it typically get pretty bubbly at lower temps? This is my first light/lager like beer and so I'm used to wort bubbling quite vigorously after about a day or so.

 

[Dland]

You should see some yeast action, but fermentation at lower temps does take longer, so it probably won't be as vigorous as you are used to with a higher temp ale fermentation.

 

[zosimus]

I always just sprinkle Fermentis yeast products on wort with no agitation. The instructions may want you to agitate it to add some O2 to wort, but this is not necessary with first pitch of Fermentis yeasts. If you re use some of the yeast for later batches, then getting some O2 in wort is good, but not for first or single use pitch of this yeast brand, as they ad something in coating that helps the yeast get going without additional O2.

1.058 is a respectable gravity, should be a nice hearty Pils. S-23 is not my favorite Fermetis lager yeast, but it can make good beer.

What lager yeast do you recommend? For pilsner?

 

[Dland]

S-189 is what I usually use. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with S-23, it is matter of personal preference. S-23 tends to have a fruity profile, which can be good, and some people like a lot. S-189 is more neutral in flavor.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

What lager yeast do you recommend? For pilsner?

It really depends on the type of lager you are making. Diamond and 34/70 are kind of my general purpose lager yeast, but if I'm making a czech pils, festbier, American larger, doppelbock, etc., I try and use something more specific to the style. Also, how you ferment - cold, warmer, pressure, etc.