Question about full boil vs. partial boil

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sdufford

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Hi guys, I've been doing some reading on partial boil vs. full boil, and it's my understanding that you place some rather severe limits on your hop utilization with a partial boil.

My question is this- if doing say, 2.5 gal instead of 5 gal, with the full extract amount added at beginning, are you essentially placing a "ceiling" on your hop utilization to the point where no matter how many hops you add you will still max out at the same utilization? In other words, if brewing an extremely hoppy beer (like a double IPA), would doubling the amount of hops at each addition fully compensate for the PB or would you be essentially wasting hops at a certain point?

Hope that question makes sense. Thanks for the help!
 
You will get better hop utilization if you add the extract at the end of the boil. The more dense your wort is during the boil, the less room you have for the hops to make their way in. So maybe try adding a little bit of the malt extract at the beginning, and the rest of of it at the end of the boil. Just make sure it hits at the very least 160 degrees for 10 minutes.
 
Question makes sense and BASICALLY I would tend to agree. I ran one of my IPA's through Brew Smith.

Full Boil I had 57 IBUs but when I went down to a 2 gallon boil it was only like 17 IBUs so then I doubled all of the hops and got it back to 47 IBU with doubling.
 
and is it correct to say that once you dillute it to reach 5 gal your IBUs will be going down as well? say you did a 2.5 gal partial at 100 IBUs and then once topped up to 5gal it would be cut in half to 50?
 
I don't know the maximum IBUs that 5 gallons of water can "hold" but full boils are better because if you reach the "hop-max" power of water in a partial boil (likely in an IIPA), you are then diluting it with the top-off water - unless, of course, you do two batches and combine them.
 
...or dry hop it

yes, absolutely dry-hop!!!

the OP's question seems to center around the achievement of the bitterness level - the flavor and aroma certainly would be addressed with some (aggressive ! :D) dry hopping - and might make up for a slight lack of bitterness, perceptually.
 
Question makes sense and BASICALLY I would tend to agree. I ran one of my IPA's through Brew Smith.

Full Boil I had 57 IBUs but when I went down to a 2 gallon boil it was only like 17 IBUs so then I doubled all of the hops and got it back to 47 IBU with doubling.

Does Brew Smith account for the fact you're topping off after the boil? As in, is there a spot were you input boil volume and then a spot for "final batch volume"? It seems like if it doesn't then your final value of 47 IBU would then be cut way down again after you dilute, as SquirrelMaster said.
 
Excellent question! I was assuming it was just utilization but perhaps they factor in the dilution due to adding water. hmmmm
 
guess i need to plan on doubling the amounts of hops in the recipe i just put together for my first partial mash. Was most likely going to end up with around 2-2.5 gal of water post boil
 
Add another confused by brewsmith partial boil calculation. Promash does not have this issue of diminishing IBUs, nor does Tastybrew.com
 
I use tastybrew and you can put in your boil volume and your batch size, so I assume that it knows you will top off your fermenter to reach the final batch size and calculate the IBU's accordingly.
 
Does Brew Smith account for the fact you're topping off after the boil? As in, is there a spot were you input boil volume and then a spot for "final batch volume"? It seems like if it doesn't then your final value of 47 IBU would then be cut way down again after you dilute, as SquirrelMaster said.

yup

it has a field for both batch size and boil size
 
I guess we also all need to be aware that IBUs and hop utilization are two different things- IBUs are a measure of bitterness in a volume of beer, whereas hop utilization is just a percentage measurement of the amount of alpha acids fully isomerized from the hops...

...so...hop utilization would not drop by adding water, but IBUs would. But as stated before, hop utilization is inherently less from the beginning if boiling a higher density wort.

Please chime in if any of this is wrong!
 
Question makes sense and BASICALLY I would tend to agree. I ran one of my IPA's through Brew Smith.

Full Boil I had 57 IBUs but when I went down to a 2 gallon boil it was only like 17 IBUs so then I doubled all of the hops and got it back to 47 IBU with doubling.

Brew Smith (and other brewing software) use totally outdated algorithms that make erroneous assumptions (e.g. incorrectly assuming that hop utilization is affected by wort gravity). If you use their hop corrections, your partial boils will wind up much hoppier than they're intended to be. Unfortunately, there's no great solution out there that'll give you adequate adjustments, but in general (especially with extract brewing) you want to be a lot closer to the hopping schedule that software suggests for a full boil than the overly-aggressive partial boil adjustments they make.

Hop utilization is independent of wort gravity, and the impact (if any) of partial boils and late extract addition on IBUs is much, much smaller than what software will calculate.

The most recent test on this was Basic Brewing Radio's experiment where they brewed the same recipe (same hop schedule) as a full boil, partial boil, and partial boil with late extract additions, then measured the IBUs of the 3 beers in the lab. Hop utilization was essentially identical (the three came out with nearly the same IBUs).
March 4, 2010 - BYO-BBR Experiment III:
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio

You can listen to John Palmer's "What is an IBU, Really?" from 20 March 2008 where he discusses the issue in some depth (including apologizing for getting this wrong in the most recent edition of How to Brew):
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2008

Now, there are some effects that often correlate with wort gravity that can impact final utilization--e.g. isomerized alpha acids can adsorb to break material. Those are much smaller effects than what brewing software calculates, though, and are pretty minimal in extract brewing (see the test above).

More discussion here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/estimating-bitterness-algorithms-state-art-109681/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/hop-utilization-178668/
 
Hi guys, I've been doing some reading on partial boil vs. full boil, and it's my understanding that you place some rather severe limits on your hop utilization with a partial boil.

My question is this- if doing say, 2.5 gal instead of 5 gal, with the full extract amount added at beginning, are you essentially placing a "ceiling" on your hop utilization to the point where no matter how many hops you add you will still max out at the same utilization? In other words, if brewing an extremely hoppy beer (like a double IPA), would doubling the amount of hops at each addition fully compensate for the PB or would you be essentially wasting hops at a certain point?

Hope that question makes sense. Thanks for the help!

This is something that most brewing books and software get wrong--it's only recently that people (like John Palmer) have figured out more of what's going on and that other people (like BBR) have done experiments to test it out.

There is probably a theoretical saturation limit, but nobody knows what it is (you hear 100 IBUs get thrown around a lot, but that's pure speculation).

If you're below that limit, utilization seems unaffected by the size of the boil (though obviously a very small boil would reach whatever the saturation point is pretty easily).

As noted above, BBR actually ran the test last year--they brewed the same recipe (same hop schedule) as a full boil, partial boil, and partial boil with late extract additions, then measured the IBUs of the 3 beers in the lab. Hop utilization was essentially identical (the three came out with nearly the same IBUs).

March 4, 2010 - BYO-BBR Experiment III:
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio
 
glad to hear beersmith is wrong. so i shouldn't be worried that when i change the boil volume in beer smith from 5 gal to 3 that the IBUs go down in half? so if it says 110 at 5 gal it may be less at 3 gal but not the 65 ibus its telling me?
 
so if this is my recipe and i plan on only having around 2.5-3gal of water after combining the strike and sparge water, i should be ok with having approximately the same amount of estimated IBUs after topping off to 5gal?

Type: Partial Mash
Date: 1/26/2011
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Brewer: Scott
Boil Size: 4.89 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: Brew Pot (5 Gallon)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.34 lb Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 66.64 %
2.98 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 23.78 %
0.60 lb Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 4.79 %
0.60 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4.79 %
2.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -
2.50 oz Chinook [13.00 %] (90 min) Hops 86.2 IBU
2.00 oz Amarillo Gold [10.00 %] (Dry Hop 7 days) Hops -
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (10 min) Hops 11.7 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [10.00 %] (10 min) Hops 9.0 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [10.00 %] (1 min) Hops 1.1 IBU
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (1 min) Hops 1.4 IBU
0.28 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [Starter 125 ml] Yeast-Ale


Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.081 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.019 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 8.06 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 109.4 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 31.4 SRM Color: Color
 
Why would anyone ever do a full boil extract again?

Less caramelization of wort (better color and theoretically less extract twang), no worries about running up against a theoretical aa supersaturation point, maybe others. Usually by the time you're worried about that, partial mashing is on the table too.
 
glad to hear beersmith is wrong. so i shouldn't be worried that when i change the boil volume in beer smith from 5 gal to 3 that the IBUs go down in half? so if it says 110 at 5 gal it may be less at 3 gal but not the 65 ibus its telling me?

Well, there's where you get into a tricky area. I got interested in the subject because the hops corrections software was giving made everything too hoppy for my extract brews; personally I'd adjust a little bit (to account for the precipitation factor Palmer discusses in that podcast), but only maybe 10% more bittering hops and no adjustment on the 15 minute or less additions.

Unfortunately while the newer research shows that the old formulas are wrong, there isn't a well-accepted replacement yet; some people (including some really experienced brewers who know their stuff--e.g. YooperBrew) still think the old adjustments are fairly close, while others (including other experienced brewers who know their stuff, e.g. the measurements at BBR) would have you adjust very little or not at all.
 
SumnerH said:
Brew Smith (and other brewing software) use totally outdated algorithms that make erroneous assumptions (e.g. incorrectly assuming that hop utilization is affected by wort gravity). If you use their hop corrections, your partial boils will wind up much hoppier than they're intended to be. Unfortunately, there's no great solution out there that'll give you adequate adjustments, but in general (especially with extract brewing) you want to be a lot closer to the hopping schedule that software suggests for a full boil than the overly-aggressive partial boil adjustments they make.

Hop utilization is independent of wort gravity, and the impact (if any) of partial boils and late extract addition on IBUs is much, much smaller than what software will calculate.

The most recent test on this was Basic Brewing Radio's experiment where they brewed the same recipe (same hop schedule) as a full boil, partial boil, and partial boil with late extract additions, then measured the IBUs of the 3 beers in the lab. Hop utilization was essentially identical (the three came out with nearly the same IBUs).
March 4, 2010 - BYO-BBR Experiment III:
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio

You can listen to John Palmer's "What is an IBU, Really?" from 20 March 2008 where he discusses the issue in some depth (including apologizing for getting this wrong in the most recent edition of How to Brew):
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2008

Now, there are some effects that often correlate with wort gravity that can impact final utilization--e.g. isomerized alpha acids can adsorb to break material. Those are much smaller effects than what brewing software calculates, though, and are pretty minimal in extract brewing (see the test above).

More discussion here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/estimating-bitterness-algorithms-state-art-109681/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/hop-utilization-178668/

So I just want to make sure I understand. If I buy a recipie kit that is designed for a partial boil of 2.5 gallons, I can do a full boil without adjusting the amount of hops at all? I always thought I would have to make adjustments for the beer to come out as expected.
 
So I just want to make sure I understand. If I buy a recipie kit that is designed for a partial boil of 2.5 gallons, I can do a full boil without adjusting the amount of hops at all? I always thought I would have to make adjustments for the beer to come out as expected.

See my last note. Unfortunately there's no easy answer to that.
 
SumnerH said:
See my last note. Unfortunately there's no easy answer to that.

So would it be a safer bet to make adjustments, or just leave it as is.
 
Wow, this is great info! When I put in my amber ale in Beersmith the IBU change for my smaller boil got me worried. Guess everything may be perfect after all.


Rev.
 
Well, there's where you get into a tricky area. I got interested in the subject because the hops corrections software was giving made everything too hoppy for my extract brews; personally I'd adjust a little bit (to account for the precipitation factor Palmer discusses in that podcast), but only maybe 10% more bittering hops and no adjustment on the 15 minute or less additions.

Unfortunately while the newer research shows that the old formulas are wrong, there isn't a well-accepted replacement yet; some people (including some really experienced brewers who know their stuff--e.g. YooperBrew) still think the old adjustments are fairly close, while others (including other experienced brewers who know their stuff, e.g. the measurements at BBR) would have you adjust very little or not at all.

Sumner and I have talked about this, and I'll further explain my own findings.

In a normally low IBU beer (15 IBUs), doing a full boil gave me an unexpectedly bitter beer. This was before I had Beersmith or heard that a full boil (or late extract addition) might change hops utilization. I remember saying, "This beer is twice as bitter as the last time I made it!" after my first full boil with it. Later, after I got Beersmith, I saw that the full boil changed the IBUs from 15 to 28. Which seemed about right to me, in the taste.

In a higher IBU beer, there was a much less noticeable effect. In an APA, I don't remember even noticing a difference! Possibly because there isn't an easy way to determine, say, 35 IBUs from 45 IBUs (as an example- I didn't calculate anything!).

So, when I discussed this with John Palmer (who originally said there was an impact of gravity on hops utilization), he blamed it on "break material" in the kettle. That is, the gravity doesn't affect hops utilization but instead the amount of break material does.

Also, when making hoppy beers, keep in mind that only so much of the hops oils can isomerize, and probably max out at 100 IBUs or so if you believe the current theories. That means if you're making a 75 IBU beer with a 2.5 gallon partial boil, well, you can't. Whatever IBUs you manage to get into the beer will be diluted by the top off water. So, if you do manage to get 3 gallons of 95 IBU wort, adding 3 gallons of top off water will definitely affect the bitterness. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but it makes sense that there IS a saturation point. If you do a full boil or a late addition of extract in this beer, you will have greater bitterness than a partial boil. And you'll be closer to the AG version of the same recipe, in that respect (boil volume, break material, gravity, etc).

All that to say this- for non-hoppy beers, where the bittering may be overpowering if you're making a beer like a cream ale, it won't hurt to reduce the bittering hops by 15% or so in a full boil or a late addition of the extract. But for a hoppy beer, particularly if it's a pretty high IBU beer, I wouldn't bother. Just be mindful of the ingredients and the desired effects.
 
thanks for posting the basicbrewing podcast, makes me feel much better! i had actually listened to that before i started homebrewing but i guess it didn't really sink in until i listened to it again now.

the one slight concern i still have is, and they mention it for a second on the podcast, would the results be any different on a high IBU beer? They did their tests using an ipa of about 60 IBUs. when brewing a full boil, partial and partial late extract, the beers came out essentially the same. One of the guys mentioned the results could be slightly different if the intended beer was 100+ IBUs. While there might be some loss, i'm at least more certain now that it would not be the 50% loss that beersmith suggests when doing a partial boil
 
Also, when making hoppy beers, keep in mind that only so much of the hops oils can isomerize, and probably max out at 100 IBUs or so if you believe the current theories. That means if you're making a 75 IBU beer with a 2.5 gallon partial boil, well, you can't.

the one slight concern i still have is, and they mention it for a second on the podcast, would the results be any different on a high IBU beer? They did their tests using an ipa of about 60 IBUs. when brewing a full boil, partial and partial late extract, the beers came out essentially the same. One of the guys mentioned the results could be slightly different if the intended beer was 100+ IBUs. While there might be some loss, i'm at least more certain now that it would not be the 50% loss that beersmith suggests when doing a partial boil

The point they were making is exactly the one Yooper is talking about above. There's got to be some saturation point beyond which you simply can't get any more isomerized oils into solution.

The question is what that point is. Yooper's right that if it is, say, 100 IBUs then you couldn't do more than a 50 IBU beer in a 2.5 gallon partial boil. On the other hand in the BBR test they had no problem brewing a 60 IBU beer with a 2.5 gallon boil--that should mean the limit's at least 120 IBUs.

It could be exactly that, or it could be 150 or 500 or 10000 IBUs; AFAIK, there hasn't been any testing done on that front (BBR said they were planning a follow up, but if they've done it I missed it).
 
squirrelmaster, any news on this? it sounds like the methodology for calculating the various thresholds for partial and full boils should be straightforward for someone with the right equipment to measure real IBUs.
 

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