Pumpernickel Porter?

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Alemaker

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I've been thinking about brewing a rye porter and spicing it with caraway seeds. My vision is pumpernickel bread in a glass. I'm looking for chocolate and molasses notes, spiciness from the rye, and a hint of caraway. I've seen a few posts and some Google results referencing some commercial pumpernickel porters and even kvass, but not much in the way of recipes. I'm not interested in a Kvass either.

Anyone ever done a rye porter they'd repeat? Any experience with caraway seeds in a rye ale?
 

Nikkimaija

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This sounds awesome. I love rye beers, I love caraway, and I've been wanting to combine them. So long way round to say, I have no idea, but hope it works out and look forward to seeing people's ideas.
 
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Alemaker

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I've never used it, but you should consider using chocolate rye.
I don't know if my LHBS has that. I don't recall seeing it, although I've never paid attention to anything rye before. Definitely of interest.
 
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Alemaker

Alemaker

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Here's what I've come up with so far. My base style will be something along the lines of a brown porter. This recipe so far is assuming I won't be able to get a hold of chocolate rye.

I've never used rye before, so someone please tell me if this is too much rye malt.


For 10 Gallons assuming 75% efficiency:

Target OG: 1.051

12 lbs Maris Otter
4 lbs Rye Malt
2 lbs Crystal 60L
1 lb Chocolate Malt

Hops:

2 oz Fuggle 60 min.

Spices:

1 Tbsp crushed caraway seeds 15 min.

Yeast: S-04 or Nottingham

No idea how much flavor the caraway seeds will contribute. I'd rather it be on the subtle side. I'm more of a session beer fan, so I'd like it to be not too overpowering and plenty quaffable.
 
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Alemaker

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Another rambling thought...this might actually be pretty good with a weizen yeast. I could sub out a portion of the MO with some wheat malt too. I'm thinking banana, clove, chocolate, and caraway...
 

bwomp313

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so like a rye dunkelweizen? sounds good. I'm curious to hear about how the caraway turns out.
 

SchlazzGraft

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How does adding actual molasses affect the flavor? Anyone tried this? I could see it being a little intense, but in moderation it could be good. I've used brown sugar and I guess thats the same principal

Sounds awesome, I might have to try this one someday!:mug:
 
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Alemaker

Alemaker

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I've seen a few porter recipes with molasses. Could be an option for this beer. I think it would definitely go.

I'm deciding against the weizen yeast on this one. It kind of makes it a roggenbier done wrong. I'm back to making this a brown porter.

1 lb of molasses could be interesting in it for sure.
 
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Alemaker

Alemaker

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Updated recipe:


For 10 Gallons assuming 75% efficiency:

Target OG: 1.052

11 lbs Maris Otter
4 lbs Rye Malt
2 lbs Crystal 60L
1 lb Chocolate Malt
1 lb Dark Molasses
Hops:

2 oz Fuggle 60 min.

Spices:

1 Tbsp toasted and crushed caraway seeds 15 min.

Yeast: S-04 or Nottingham


The biggest unknown here are the caraway seeds. Should I "dry caraway" in a secondary, or just add them to the boil? The amount is still a big question too.
 

Revvy

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Have you considered actually baking a pumpernickle (or buy a couple loaves of your favorite brand) and mashing with it?

There's a lot of experimentation going on with that these days. Iron brewer cometitions have some neat things with dumping frosted oatmeal cookie and even cakes into the mash tun.

Plus there's the whole ancient use on Bappir bread in the recreation of the Gilgamesh Brew. And Even on one of the last couple Brewmasters tv show Sam did a bread in the mashtun brew.

There's also Kvass.

We have a decent thread about it here Brewing with Bread.

I make a Jamaican Spiced Banana rum Bread every year, and as I mentioned in another thread, I am planning to do a 2.5 gallon batch of a base porter with a couple loves crumbled up and tossed in the mash tun, and maybe one in the last 10 minutes of the boil.
 
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Alemaker

Alemaker

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Yeah, I thought about adding some bread to the mash tun. I guess it would convert pretty well. I think for this one though, I'll stick to unbaked goods.

How does it work to add bread to the boil? Without conversion in the mash, is it at all fermentable?
 

Oldsock

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How does it work to add bread to the boil? Without conversion in the mash, is it at all fermentable?
That's how we did our pumpernickel porter kvass. We added it while the beer was coming up to a boil, so there might have been some conversion. It seemed to add a more substantial body, and maybe some "bready" flavors, but not a whole lot.

Some brown malt is a nice addition to a recipe like this, nice bread crust flavor, but otherwise looks like good recipe. I think your amounts of molasses/caraway are right on, although I might hold back a bit and add more to the fermenter if the flavor needs it.
 

Revvy

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Yeah, I thought about adding some bread to the mash tun. I guess it would convert pretty well. I think for this one though, I'll stick to unbaked goods.

How does it work to add bread to the boil? Without conversion in the mash, is it at all fermentable?
Even the bread in the mash tun may not convert, to me, it's really about the flavoring. We know a good pumpernickle is full of flavor, so rather than trying to re-create the elements of the flavor into a beer (like deconstructing it) I see it more as taking a base beer that won't overpower it, and flavoring that with the bread....Like we use orange peals, oak and other things in our beers.
 
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Alemaker

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I've never used brown malt. Sounds good. Biscuit malt may be a welcome addition as well. I'll think about incorporating one or the other. Generally, I try to keep the recipe as "uncluttered" as I can.
 

Revvy

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That's how we did our pumpernickel porter kvass. We added it while the beer was coming up to a boil, so there might have been some conversion. It seemed to add a more substantial body, and maybe some "bready" flavors, but not a whole lot.
FYI, I've been meaning to say, it's really cool having one of my homebrewing heroes on here! You seem to be on here a lot more lately, which is cool.

:mug:

I just saw your latest stuff about that posted on Basic brewing. Can't wait to settle in and listen.
 

Oldsock

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FYI, I've been meaning to say, it's really cool having one of my homebrewing heroes on here! You seem to be on here a lot more lately, which is cool.

:mug:

I just saw your latest stuff about that posted on Basic brewing. Can't wait to settle in and listen.
Thanks, but I’m not a hero, the yeast that give their lives every day to produce beer are the real heros…

This board has a so much activity and so many people trying the same sorts of stuff I’m into that it is hard not to get sucked in. About to take a vacation though, so my posts will drop off for a couple weeks without having work time to kill.
 

Hex23

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I've been following this thread because I think the flavors you're trying to blend would be fantastic. I tried adding molasses to a beer once and was pretty disappointed. I really tasted none of the molasses when it was ready. Maybe I used the wrong type, or maybe I should have used it for bottle conditioning sugar. Anyway, I'd love to hear how this turns out for you.
 

gratus fermentatio

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The biggest unknown here are the caraway seeds. Should I "dry caraway" in a secondary, or just add them to the boil? The amount is still a big question too.
I Haven't brewed a beer with caraway yet, but I've been experimenting with caraway in graf with great results. I've tried adding to just the boil, just "dry hopping" & doing both. I've used up to 2 tablespoons of raw caraway seed in a "dry hop" application, I just put the seed in a hop bag & rack onto it. I've left it in as long as 3 weeks & the end product had a nice caraway flavour without overpowering anything else.

I've also experimented with adding caraway seed to the bottles. Obviously the longer it's in, the stronger the caraway flavour will be & it will eventually reach a point where it's just too strong; but I can tell you that 5 individual caraway seeds in a graf wort using 1.5lbs amber LME & 2lbs of specialty grains (2 row, Munich, crystal 60L & honey malt) at bottling (1L bottle) will impart a fairly strong caraway flavour after 5 weeks of bottle conditioning.

The boil only was less noticable, but it worked pretty well too; it was just a bit more in the background, a "softer" flavour, whereas the "dry hopping" really brought it to the front. Doing both works well too, but I haven't really noticed any more depth of flavour like you get by adding fruit to primary & then again later in tertiary for a mead/melomel. I haven't tried toasting the caraway seed yet, but I'll do so eventually.

My concern would be whether the amount of caraway in your boil will be able to come through the specialty malts. I'd say go ahead with your plan, but ALSO "dry hop" with caraway, that way you can taste as it goes along & remove it when it reaches the flavour level you want it to have.

One thing I've noticed about caraway seed is that the stuff you buy from those bulk jars is much less aromatic that what you buy in those little sealed 1-2oz bottles. The fresher & more aromatic the better.

I'm really interested in your results, I've been thinking about adding caraway to all sorts of brews. Keep us posted. Regards, GF.
 

kanzimonson

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This is one of those recipe ideas that you can only refine so much... just brew it!

I like everything you're planning EXCEPT for the molasses. I think there's a misconception that molasses is liquid brown sugar - this is not true. Yes, molasses is an ingredient in good brown sugar, but we're only talking about 15% of the weight. I hate the taste and smell of molasses - it's like overpowering citrus peels combined with charred corpses. Before you add it to your beer, taste it.
 
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Alemaker

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Thanks for the input everyone. I'm going to try to brew this on Jan 1st. I think I'll heed the warnings about molasses and skip it this time. That way I'll have a baseline for what this will taste like without it. I could do another batch in the future with it, but only if I find the flavor lacking. If it just kicks ass, I won't bother.
 

dzlater

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This might give you some ideas, a recipe from the Papazian book MicroBrewed adventures. He recomends English ale yeast or a German wheat yeast, if you like those flavors.
I haven't brewed it yet, but I am meaning to someday.



PUMPERNICKEL RYE - Stout
================================================================================
Batch Size: 5.000 gal
Boil Size: 6.000 gal
Boil Time: 1.000 hr
Efficiency: 80%
OG: 1.056
FG: 1.014
ABV: 5.5%
Bitterness: 30.7 IBUs (Rager)
Color: 28 SRM (Morey)

Fermentables
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Mashed Late Yield Color
Pale Malt (6 Row) US Grain 6.000 lb Yes No 76% 2 L
Rye Malt Grain 1.000 lb Yes No 63% 5 L
White Wheat Malt Grain 12.000 oz Yes No 86% 2 L
Caramunich Malt Grain 12.000 oz Yes No 72% 56 L
Corn, Flaked Grain 12.000 oz Yes No 80% 1 L
Rice Hulls Adjunct 8.000 oz Yes No 0% 0 L
Roasted Barley Grain 8.000 oz Yes No 55% 300 L
Acid Malt Grain 4.000 oz Yes No 59% 3 L
Chocolate Malt (US) Grain 4.000 oz Yes No 60% 350 L
Carafa III Grain 2.000 oz Yes No 70% 525 L
Total grain: 10.875 lb

Hops
================================================================================
Name Alpha Amount Use Time Form IBU
Liberty 5.0% 0.600 oz Boil 1.000 hr Pellet 13.7
Mount Hood 6.0% 1.000 oz Boil 30.000 min Pellet 15.2
Crystal 4.5% 0.500 oz Boil 1.000 min Pellet 1.7
Hallertau 4.5% 0.250 oz Dry Hop 7.000 day Pellet 0.0
 

coypoo

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I tried to PM Alemaker about this beer and I dont think he is on the forum anymore b/c I never heard anything back....
 

HawkDriver

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Well I hadn't heard how any of this turned out, so I went into this semi-blind. I combined a few recipes and techniques found here and across the interwebs, plus a few actual pumpernickel bread recipes, and came up with this extract version. I also found somewhere a technique that only adds caraway sparingly in order to not overpower it, and that appealed to me. I started fermenting on October 9, so I have a few weeks before I can tell you how it turned out.

So far, here's where I'm at...

Steeping grains
1 pound flaked rye
0.75 pounds crystal 40L
0.50 pounds chocolate malt

Boil for 1 hour.
Add at the start:
4.5 pounds amber LME
3.5 pounds dark LME
8 oz molasses
4 oz unsweetened cocoa powder
1.5 oz Williamette hops, 5.5% AAU

15 minutes left in boil:
4 oz fresh ground coffee
1 tsp Irish moss or fining agent (optional)

0 minutes (add when you turn off heat, before you cool)
1 tbsp caraway seeds

Add white labs London ale yeast, WLP0013

Hit an OG of 1.059, much less than the 1.072 my brew calculator gave me... Since this was an experiment, I'm not sure if I really did miss the mark or if it calculated the estimate correctly with the steeping grains.

note that I was worried about a blowout in primary fermentation. Let's just say I'm happy I used a blowoff tube and switched to the airlock on day 2. Pretty vigorous. I'm planning on racking to secondary any day now, whenever I get some free time. I'm going for about a month total fermentation before kegging. Probably another month in the keg before it'll be fully ready. I'll let you guys know how this experiment pays off!

Sent from my iPad using HB Talk
 

HawkDriver

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Wow yeah- didn't realize I forgot to come back with the results. Unfortunately it's been too long to be specific but honestly I don't remember that brew all that well. Don't think it turned out very memorable unfortunately.
 

BreezyBrew

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Wow yeah- didn't realize I forgot to come back with the results. Unfortunately it's been too long to be specific but honestly I don't remember that brew all that well. Don't think it turned out very memorable unfortunately.
LOL. Just giving ya a hard time. Thanks for the reply!
 
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