Pseudo-decoction

[rzwahr]

I recently listened to a Basic Brewing Radio show where Kai and James discussed decoction in pretty great detail. It's a great show, and I recommend you listen to it if you haven't yet. Click here for the show.

Kai mentions at about 48:55 an alternative decoction method that he called pseudo-decoction where he gives the following points:

- dough in with 1/2 the grain and 1/3 the water, boil for 20-30 minutes
- add in the rest of the grain and water and shoot for 67C (152F) and take it from there as a normal brew

He says you can get much of the same flavor profile as other decoctions this way.

Being a BIABer, I've been looking for a way to do decoctions that would fit in with a more streamlined process, so this sounds intriguing. I found some articles regarding the Schmitz process (BYO, Instructables), which seems to share some similarities with Kai's method, but with marked differences.

I've seen many people saying decoction doesn't make a difference but I'm a sucker for tradition, and I'm also hardheaded thanks to my German heritage.

I'm primarily interested in a bit more details on the various rests following the initial boiling etc. based on the different styles. I pretty much brew all German style beers so this would definitely come in handy.

Does anyone have any further information on this method, or have done it? Hopefully Kai will see this and weigh in.

-Ryan

PS - good info from wobdee and vlad on this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6236457&postcount=1

 

[wobdee]

I've done lots of BIAB brews using a variation of the Schmitz process or Kessel mash. I do it all in one kettle since I have a stainless mesh basket to boil the grains in. Here's a short run down of how I do it.

Dough in full volume, protein rest 130-133 for 15 min, direct heat to 150 hold 15 min, drain about 2/3 mash liquid to cooler to keep temp, bring mash slowly up to boil and boil 30 min, cool down mash to about 160-165, return liquid back to mash and mash 30 min at 155-160, pull basket to drain.

This schedule works pretty well for me, makes great lagers according to me as well as members of my club and doesn't add a lot of extra time to the brew day but I can't say it's as good as a triple decoction because I've never done it to compare.

My last couple brews I've gone back to direct heat step mashing just to compare the same recipes to my Schmitz brews.

 

[lazarwolf]

With BIAB decoction is easy, just remove 1/3 of your mash after protein rest to a pot on the stove, bring to a boil. Add back in. Repeat once or twice. I know decoction is technically not necessary any longer, but there is something about it, a subtle taste difference.

 

[wobdee]

Another decoction schedule I found and would like to try was from Gordon Biersch. 126, 144, 154, 162, boil 1/4 of mash for 10 min to reach each step.

 

[rzwahr]

lazarwolf - i've been contemplating doing just that with my next brew.

wobdee - very interesting, i've never seen that schedule before. Something else to try!

The pseudo/schmitz method sounds most efficient from a process standpoint, since it takes place in one heated vessel and only requires a cooler to hold the 2/3 wort that you draw off. No harm in trying them both and seeing which suits your style.

-Ryan

 

[Spartan1979]

I recently listened to a Basic Brewing Radio show where Kai and James discussed decoction in pretty great detail. It's a great show, and I recommend you listen to it if you haven't yet. Click here for the show.

Kai mentions at about 48:55 an alternative decoction method that he called pseudo-decoction where he gives the following points:

- dough in with 1/2 the grain and 1/3 the water, boil for 20-30 minutes
- add in the rest of the grain and water and shoot for 67C (152F) and take it from there as a normal brew

He says you can get much of the same flavor profile as other decoctions this way.

Being a BIABer, I've been looking for a way to do decoctions that would fit in with a more streamlined process, so this sounds intriguing. I found some articles regarding the Schmitz process (BYO, Instructables), which seems to share some similarities with Kai's method, but with marked differences.

I've seen many people saying decoction doesn't make a difference but I'm a sucker for tradition, and I'm also hardheaded thanks to my German heritage.

I'm primarily interested in a bit more details on the various rests following the initial boiling etc. based on the different styles. I pretty much brew all German style beers so this would definitely come in handy.

Does anyone have any further information on this method, or have done it? Hopefully Kai will see this and weigh in.

-Ryan

PS - good info from wobdee and vlad on this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6236457&postcount=1

Has anyone tried this yet?

Any idea what the water temperature should be when you add it to the decocted mash?

 

[agrazela]

With BIAB decoction is easy, just remove 1/3 of your mash after protein rest to a pot on the stove, bring to a boil. Add back in. Repeat once or twice. I know decoction is technically not necessary any longer, but there is something about it, a subtle taste difference.

My fake-decoction is very similar to lazarwolf's, though even simpler.

In a 5gal full volume stovetop BIAB, after hitting mash temp and resting ~10-15min, I'll scoop 4qts (grains and all) out of the main kettle into a 10qt pot on another smaller burner, bring that to a boil, and let it roll the whole rest of the mash time. Then pour it back into the main kettle just before pulling the bag.

 

[wobdee]

Has anyone tried this yet?

Any idea what the water temperature should be when you add it to the decocted mash?

I haven't tried this yet but I found this post from Kai at another forum that looks similar.

I found another neat "pseudo" decoction that can be done with just one heated mash tun on a German brewing board. You mash only about 2/3 of the malt with ~1/2 of the strike water. Then the whole thing is boiled and the remaining water is added to cool it back to 160F. Once that that temp the remaining 1/3 of the malt are added and left to convert the mash. After that you mash-out (or not) and lauter. If you use Pils and Munich in the recipe it is best to keep the enzymatically stronger Pilsner for the late malt addition.*

 

[didinho]

With BIAB decoction is easy, just remove 1/3 of your mash after protein rest to a pot on the stove, bring to a boil. Add back in. Repeat once or twice. I know decoction is technically not necessary any longer, but there is something about it, a subtle taste difference.

I agree. classic decoction seems easier, and you just need a pot more during mash.
and it MAKES the difference in beer flavor, more maly tastes. It also enhance nutty flavors in english styles when you use Pale malt.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Kai's Pseudo decoction sounds like a great shortcut, although I am wondering about one aspect that Kai might have missed. There seem to be two main advantages to doing a decoction:

1) you release more starches which enhances the later conversion process;

2) you get Maillard reactions which gives that nice caramelly type of flavour.

In some decoctions, you boil the grain after it has been partially or fully converted, unlike Kai's approach. Thus, when you boil, some of the sugars caramelize. With Kai's approach, there are no sugars to boil.

My understand is that the Maillard reaction occurs when sugars and amino acids combine at high temperatures.

My questions is, without the converted sugars, would this approach inhibit or reduce the Maillard reactions?

 

[kevin58]

With BIAB decoction is easy, just remove 1/3 of your mash after protein rest to a pot on the stove, bring to a boil. Add back in. Repeat once or twice. I know decoction is technically not necessary any longer, but there is something about it, a subtle taste difference.

This is what I do with my electric all-in-one. I use a kitchen strainer to pull off the grain... walk it over to the stove... bring to a boil and then back to the kettle.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

This is what I do with my electric all-in-one. I use a kitchen strainer to pull off the grain... walk it over to the stove... bring to a boil and then back to the kettle.

Yes, but the grain is not yet converted. Thus, although you release starches during the boil, you miss out on the Maillard reactions

 

[doug293cz]

Yes, but the grain is not yet converted. Thus, although you release starches during the boil, you miss out on the Maillard reactions

You will get some saccharification while heating to a boil, so yes there will be sugar present by the time you reach a boil. The slower the heating rate, the longer the amount of time spent in the enzyme active temp range, so the more sugar there will be.

Brew on

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Interesting thread resurrection. Kai's site has been a wealth of info for me (https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com) but he was active before I got involved with online brewing forums. Interesting to hear his voice.

I could not track down my copy of "Modern Lager Beer" (a very good book!), but I recall there being a page or two on a simplified decoction process for homebrewers. I think it was basically a single decoction after the mash that will heat the mash up to mash out temps. You would not get #1 ("release more starches which enhances the later conversion process") but with today's malts that might not be a big deal.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Interesting thread resurrection. Kai's site has been a wealth of info for me (https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com) but he was active before I got involved with online brewing forums. Interesting to hear his voice.

I could not track down my copy of "Modern Lager Beer" (a very good book!), but I recall there being a page or two on a simplified decoction process for homebrewers. I think it was basically a single decoction after the mash that will heat the mash up to mash out temps. You would not get #1 ("release more starches which enhances the later conversion process") but with today's malts that might not be a big deal.

I found the book. Above is not quite right.

There are a few pages on a Simplified Decoction process that could be applied to a professional brewery. That is similar to what I posted above and I was likely thinking that would be a decent process to apply to a homebrew level. At the pro level, it mentions moving 75% of the completed mash to the lauter tun and bring the remaining 25% up to a boil (with some alternatives based on equipment).

There is a "Homebrew Tips" section with 2 options. One is a single-vessel method that involves a 15 minute mash with 25% of the grain before boiling, then adding in the rest of the grain and water. The other is a two-vessel method that involves a standard mash with 75% of the grain in one pot, and a separate short mash+boil in another pot. At the end, the contents of both pots are combined. In theory, the two-vessel method would not add much additional time since both are done in parallel.

But, get a copy of the book yourself. I am not much of a lager brewer myself, but "Modern Lager Beer" would fit in my top 10 favorite homebrewing books.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

You will get some saccharification while heating to a boil, so yes there will be sugar present by the time you reach a boil. The slower the heating rate, the longer the amount of time spent in the enzyme active temp range, so the more sugar there will be.

Brew on

Yes, going slowly may work, as long as you stay in the saccharification range for at least 10 or 15 minutes. You need a lot of sugars to get significant Maillard reactions, especially at the low temperature of 212 F. Most of the Maillard reactions that do occur, occur in the random, temporary over-heated areas where the heat touches the bottom of the pot, and/or where the grain slightly scorches.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Interesting thread resurrection. Kai's site has been a wealth of info for me (https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com) but he was active before I got involved with online brewing forums. Interesting to hear his voice.

I could not track down my copy of "Modern Lager Beer" (a very good book!), but I recall there being a page or two on a simplified decoction process for homebrewers. I think it was basically a single decoction after the mash that will heat the mash up to mash out temps. You would not get #1 ("release more starches which enhances the later conversion process") but with today's malts that might not be a big deal.

Kai is very much missed. I'm not sure why he suddenly seemed to disapear. I have learned so much from his websites, and videos, and I'm grateful that he still has them up. Thanks for the book recommendation. I wasn't aware of that one - it seems as though it just came out recently.