Pseudo Bohemian Pilsener - step mash and boil times?

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Matheos

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I am planning to brew a "pseudo" Bohemian pilsener. I call it pseudo as I won't be doing any actual lagering, nor am I planning to ferment using lager yeast or at lager temps.

My recipe is as follows: Brewfather

Bohemian pseudo pilsener

Bohemian-Style Pilsener
4.9% / 11.5 °P
Recipe by
Matheos Mattsson
All Grain

Maischfest

75.8% efficiency
Batch Volume: 21 L
Boil Time: 90 min
Mash Water: 15.56 L
Sparge Water: 12.91 L
Total Water: 28.47 L
Boil Volume: 25.33 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.040

Vitals​

Original Gravity: 1.046
Final Gravity: 1.009
IBU (Tinseth): 29
BU/GU: 0.62
Color: 8.1 EBC


Mash​


Temperature — 63 °C20 min
Temperature — 70 °C30 min
Temperature — 76 °C10 min

Malts (4.33 kg)

3.85 kg (88.9%) — Weyermann Floor-Malted Bohemian Pilsner — Grain — 2.5 EBC
350 g (8.1%) — Weyermann Munich I — Grain — 15 EBC
130 g (3%) — Castle Malting Chateau Biscuit — Grain — 50 EBC

Hops (75.1 g)

37.3 g (22 IBU) — Saaz 4.5% — Boil — 60 min
18.9 g
(5 IBU) — Saaz 4.5% — Boil — 10 min
18.9 g
(1 IBU) — Saaz 4.5% — Aroma — 15 min hopstand

Hopstand at 80 °C

Yeast​

1 pkg — Lallemand (LalBrew) Voss Kveik 80%

Fermentation​

Primary — 20 °C14 days
Carbonation: 2.4 CO2-vol
I am mainly asking for advice on the choice of malt (Weyermann Floor malted bohemian) and if my mash schedule and time (60min) suits this malt (stole the schedule from another related thread). I am not interested in doing a more complicated mash than simply raising and lowering temps (sorry don't remember the fancy terms), so I rather choose another base malt than doing anything too complicated. Also, I put the boil time to 90 as I have heard it helps reduce DMS, what are your toughts on this in this case? Is it unnecessary?

Lastly, if you have any other improvements suggestions they are always welcome. I realize the choice of yeast may not be optimal (perhaps producing a bit more fruity flavour than the original style desires), and some people may want to crucify me for trying to call it a pilsener or lager :p The yeast choice is simply based on the fact that my fermentation temp cannot be controlled and will most likely be 24 -26 degrees (Summer in an apartment :/)

Cheers!
 

AlexKay

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The Weyermann floor-malted Bohemian is well modified, and I’ve had no trouble even with single infusions. And yes, as long as you’ve got a rolling boil, 60 minutes is fine.

Have you considered Lutra kveik (also available dry from Omega) instead? It’s reported to be cleaner than Voss.
 
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Matheos

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The Weyermann floor-malted Bohemian is well modified, and I’ve had no trouble even with single infusions. And yes, as long as you’ve got a rolling boil, 60 minutes is fine.

Have you considered Lutra kveik (also available dry from Omega) instead? It’s reported to be cleaner than Voss.
Oh okay. I read that Weyermann malts overall are almost undermodified, but I guess the information out there is a bit conflicting. According to the floor-malted Bohemian sheet it is 36-55 Kolbach, though I don't know what that means but perhaps you do :)

Any opinions on the mash schedule?

Regarding the yeast, yes I have concidered lutra but it is not too available here in Finland. Almost every finnish homebrew shop only supplies Voss. I saw Imperial Yeast Kviking has been available (which I think is Lutra?) but of course it is out of stock :/
Edit: Found Lutra from a finnish homebrew store. Though feels a bit silly ordering just yeast and having to pay for shipping (the store is not my local one). Though it is a possibility
 
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monkeymath

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The floor malted is just as well-modified as any other pilsner malt - it's a shame that dozens of blogs etc describe it as "slightly under-modified".

The beta-amylase rest might be considered a bit short, but it's probably fine. You could check out the "Warm fermented lager"-thread: I guess that W34/70 should work fine even at those elevated temperatures, but I haven't tried it myself.

More importantly than mash or boil times: pay close attention to your water!
 

AlexKay

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Well modified would be about 40 Kolbach, or 40% of the protein is soluble in a Congress mash… and that’s pretty much right in the middle of the range given. 80% friability is on the low side for modification. I wouldn’t call it a highly modified malt, but it’s modified enough that you don’t have to worry about protein rests, decoction, and the like. (Pay no attention to those who will soon tell you that a true Bo Pils cannot be made without a triple-decoction-double-axel mash.)

Anyhow, I have 55 pounds of personal experience with this malt, and that experience is that it is just fine with a single infusion. The Hochkurz you’re proposing will certainly work too.
 

Alan Reginato

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I use Voss Kveik two times, with low (23C) and high (35 C) fermentation temps and it's not neutral or clear. It's acid and show up some strong orange peel esters.
S-33, Nottingham and US-05 have a more suitable profile.
 
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Matheos

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I use Voss Kveik two times, with low (23C) and high (35 C) fermentation temps and it's not neutral or clear. It's acid and show up some strong orange peel esters.
S-33, Nottingham and US-05 have a more suitable profile.
Ok. Thanks for the tip. My temperatures may though be in the higher end for US-05 at least, but certainly not impossible.
For dry yeasts, I find Nottingham to be more neutral that US-05 above 22 C or so.
Thanks Alex for the tips on the single infusion. I am always for making my brew day easier :D What temp would you do for this malt for single infusion? 65 C?
Starts to seem like kveik may not be my best bet unless I get my hands on lutra for this one. Though as previously mentioned, I could do lutra if I order it separately. Would US-05 or Nottingham produce any unwanted characterstics when fermented at around 25 C? I realise this is above the recommended for nottingham and just at the higher end of recommended for US-05. Not overly excited spending 7,50€+3,50€ for lutra if US-05 or notty for fractions of that would do the trick :)
 
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Matheos

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The floor malted is just as well-modified as any other pilsner malt - it's a shame that dozens of blogs etc describe it as "slightly under-modified".

The beta-amylase rest might be considered a bit short, but it's probably fine. You could check out the "Warm fermented lager"-thread: I guess that W34/70 should work fine even at those elevated temperatures, but I haven't tried it myself.

More importantly than mash or boil times: pay close attention to your water!
Indeed. The blogs and whatnot do say that...
I did actually ferment a lager yeast warm last year. Though not this warm. I fermented it at room temps, S-189 I recall, and it worked very well :) I had about a 12-24h lag though before the fermentation took of. I am a bit sceptical at using lager yeast for 25C and perhaps above, which is a bit high to call "room temperature".

Could you elaborate on what you mean by paying close attention to the water? :)
 

monkeymath

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Could you elaborate on what you mean by paying close attention to the water? :)

Oh yeah, sure, sorry about that! Generally speaking, Czech pilsners draw some of their distinctive character from the very soft water of the region. So distilled or reverse osmosis water plus a teeny tiny bit of mineral additions to bump the calcium slightly is your friend (or being lucky enough to have a natural source of soft water).

On a related note: It's sort of a continuum between Blonde Ale, Kölsch, generic pale lager and Czech pilsner, and while I am not a style-focused fascist, you should have a reason in mind why your beer is a (pseudo) Bohemian Pilsner rather than, say, a Blonde Ale - in particular if using a yeast like US-05. The Saaz hops alone don't suffice imho.
 

AlexKay

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On a related note: It's sort of a continuum between Blonde Ale, Kölsch, generic pale lager and Czech pilsner, and while I am not a style-focused fascist, you should have a reason in mind why your beer is a (pseudo) Bohemian Pilsner rather than, say, a Blonde Ale - in particular if using a yeast like US-05. The Saaz hops alone don't suffice imho.

My take on it is that Bohemian Pilsner is crisper, hoppier, and substantially more bitter than, say, a Munich Helles. I agree the Saaz alone doesn't suffice, but if you had more Saaz it just might. Maybe 40 g each, for all three additions? Weikert's write-up (I like Weikert's write-ups) is "You’re going to add an absurd amount of hops to this beer. I mean it, really: like, a borderline-disturbing amount, and it’s all Saaz."
 
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Matheos

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Oh yeah, sure, sorry about that! Generally speaking, Czech pilsners draw some of their distinctive character from the very soft water of the region. So distilled or reverse osmosis water plus a teeny tiny bit of mineral additions to bump the calcium slightly is your friend (or being lucky enough to have a natural source of soft water).
Ah, thanks for the explanation! We actually do have "very soft water" (very scentific I know...) here in our municipality, at least according to the authorities website. To be specific, it should on average be 2.9 °dH or 0.51 mmol/l. I am yet to get into water chemistry either way (besides using campden and that I guess does not count lol), so I guess I will consider myself lucky on this matter :p
My take on it is that Bohemian Pilsner is crisper, hoppier, and substantially more bitter than, say, a Munich Helles. I agree the Saaz alone doesn't suffice, but if you had more Saaz it just might. Maybe 40 g each, for all three additions? Weikert's write-up (I like Weikert's write-ups) is "You’re going to add an absurd amount of hops to this beer. I mean it, really: like, a borderline-disturbing amount, and it’s all Saaz."

Regarding the choice of yeast and "what is a bohemian pilsener".
I am certainly no expert on this style. I just want to try something new. That being said, I do like Alex's take on it. My homebrew shop supplies hops in 100g bags, so for simplicity I could do 33g additions for all my additions making it at least a bit hoppier while using up the whole bag. Or maybe even better yet 40g @ 60 followed by 30g + 30g :)? Just to get some IBUs from the 60 addition.
The yeast... Will I be OK with US-05? Considering the temps... Or should I play it "safe", and order the expensive lutra from further away... I read that saison yeasts also like this kind of temperature, though I have no clue if it suits the beer in question... What would your guys' choice be, considering the temperature and style, as well as the fact that I cannot (unfortunately) impact the temperature.

Thanks again for all the great tips :)
 

monkeymath

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Ah, thanks for the explanation! We actually do have "very soft water" (very scentific I know...) here in our municipality, at least according to the authorities website. To be specific, it should on average be 2.9 °dH or 0.51 mmol/l. I am yet to get into water chemistry either way (besides using campden and that I guess does not count lol), so I guess I will consider myself lucky on this matter :p


Regarding the choice of yeast and "what is a bohemian pilsener".
I am certainly no expert on this style. I just want to try something new. That being said, I do like Alex's take on it. My homebrew shop supplies hops in 100g bags, so for simplicity I could do 33g additions for all my additions making it at least a bit hoppier while using up the whole bag. Or maybe even better yet 40g @ 60 followed by 30g + 30g :)? Just to get some IBUs from the 60 addition.
The yeast... Will I be OK with US-05? Considering the temps... Or should I play it "safe", and order the expensive lutra from further away... I read that saison yeasts also like this kind of temperature, though I have no clue if it suits the beer in question... What would your guys' choice be, considering the temperature and style, as well as the fact that I cannot (unfortunately) impact the temperature.

Thanks again for all the great tips :)

The water should be fine then, I guess - it's probably deficient in calcium, so if you can find some calcium chloride or calcium sulfate, that might help. It's not strictly necessary for Czech pilsners, but calcium levels above 50ppm generally aid yeast flocculation, which is particularly important if you cannot lager your beer. If your authorities published a water report, you could post it here so we can help you figure it out.

As far as yeasts go: yes, Saison yeasts like those temperatures, but they are basically the opposite of lager yeasts and produce very strongly flavoured fermentation byproducts (esters and phenols). Basically: if you use a Saison yeast, you're making a Saison. (Which is awesome, I love Saisons!)
I've never used a Kveik yeast, some people report great success making mock lagers using those. If US05 is the simpler/cheaper option for you, I'd say give it a shot. If you're not satisfied with the result, you can still try and improve it on the next attempt using Kveik. If you start with Kveik and love it, you'll never dare try it with US-05 and then you'll always have to reach for Kveik ;) (This is a piece of advice I *never* follow myself: I always try to get things exactly right on the first try. Be smarter than me!)

I have also planned to brew another Czech pilsner this year and I'll split 100g of Saaz evenly across three additions (60, 15 and 5 minutes) and then possibly include some other hop in the 60 min addition to hit my target IBUs, just because I have only 100g of Saaz and you can't really taste the difference in the bittering addition anyways.
 
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Matheos

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The water should be fine then, I guess - it's probably deficient in calcium, so if you can find some calcium chloride or calcium sulfate, that might help. It's not strictly necessary for Czech pilsners, but calcium levels above 50ppm generally aid yeast flocculation, which is particularly important if you cannot lager your beer. If your authorities published a water report, you could post it here so we can help you figure it out.

As far as yeasts go: yes, Saison yeasts like those temperatures, but they are basically the opposite of lager yeasts and produce very strongly flavoured fermentation byproducts (esters and phenols). Basically: if you use a Saison yeast, you're making a Saison. (Which is awesome, I love Saisons!)
I've never used a Kveik yeast, some people report great success making mock lagers using those. If US05 is the simpler/cheaper option for you, I'd say give it a shot. If you're not satisfied with the result, you can still try and improve it on the next attempt using Kveik. If you start with Kveik and love it, you'll never dare try it with US-05 and then you'll always have to reach for Kveik ;) (This is a piece of advice I *never* follow myself: I always try to get things exactly right on the first try. Be smarter than me!)

I have also planned to brew another Czech pilsner this year and I'll split 100g of Saaz evenly across three additions (60, 15 and 5 minutes) and then possibly include some other hop in the 60 min addition to hit my target IBUs, just because I have only 100g of Saaz and you can't really taste the difference in the bittering addition anyways.

Water report: https://www.turunseudunvesi.fi/wp-c...-Halisista-lahtevan-veden-vedenlaatu_2021.pdf Unfortunately only in finnish. But the names are quite the same. Calcium seems to be 18 mg/L which I googled should be equivalent to 18ppm.

I also always try to get everything perfect on the first try... :p Which is why we are even having this conversation haha. I get your point though, if I would try US-05 for this beer at this temps, it should be now. If I don't do it now, and succeed with something else, I will never do it. It is true. Perhaps I should give it a shot... Unless someone else tells me otherwise and that US-05 will produce absolute crap beer at 25C XD

Good point on the hops... I do have some extra cascade and chinook and whatnot in the freezer. Could throw some extra in at 60 and even out the Saaz over the three additions :)
 

Oleson M.D.

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I contacted Weyermann, asking about their malts.
They said the malts are well modified. But when making a Pilsner, they strongly recommended a decoction mash.
 

AlexKay

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Weyermann gave us a couple recipes. These called for a triple step mash.
With what steps?

Decoction makes sense if you’re trying to brew traditionally for the sake of brewing traditionally. It makes sense if you’re on a desert island without a thermometer. Maybe it makes sense if you believe in Maillard products forming in the boil. But a three-step decoction for a well modified malt is just silly.
 

Oleson M.D.

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With what steps?

Decoction makes sense if you’re trying to brew traditionally for the sake of brewing traditionally. It makes sense if you’re on a desert island without a thermometer. Maybe it makes sense if you believe in Maillard products forming in the boil. But a three-step decoction for a well modified malt is just silly.


Direct from the source - Weyermann.
This should help answer your questions:

Mash (Infusion):
Mash in at 62°C (145°F), hold this temperature, 63°C (145°F) and rest for 30 min, hold another break at 68°C (154°F) for 10 minutes, rise up the temperature to 72°C (162°F) and rest for 15 min. Mash out by 78°C (172°F)
 
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Matheos

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Direct from the source - Weyermann.
This should help answer your questions:

Mash (Infusion):
Mash in at 62°C (145°F), hold this temperature, 63°C (145°F) and rest for 30 min, hold another break at 68°C (154°F) for 10 minutes, rise up the temperature to 72°C (162°F) and rest for 15 min. Mash out by 78°C (172°F)
Thanks for sharing! Does not seem to be too difficult... This may be a stupid question (I have never done a more advanced mash than a single temp), how long is mash out? I mean, I raise the temp to 78 C, but for how long do I hold it until I bring the wort to a boil? Again, sorry if this is a stupid question
 

monkeymath

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Water report: https://www.turunseudunvesi.fi/wp-c...-Halisista-lahtevan-veden-vedenlaatu_2021.pdf Unfortunately only in finnish. But the names are quite the same. Calcium seems to be 18 mg/L which I googled should be equivalent to 18ppm.

I also always try to get everything perfect on the first try... :p Which is why we are even having this conversation haha. I get your point though, if I would try US-05 for this beer at this temps, it should be now. If I don't do it now, and succeed with something else, I will never do it. It is true. Perhaps I should give it a shot... Unless someone else tells me otherwise and that US-05 will produce absolute crap beer at 25C XD

Good point on the hops... I do have some extra cascade and chinook and whatnot in the freezer. Could throw some extra in at 60 and even out the Saaz over the three additions :)

Well, "homebrew wisdom" surely dictates that US-05 at 25 Celsius makes an undrinkable mess, but I generally believe homebrewers overestimate the impact of the things they do (such as step mashing) or the ingredients they use (such as the differences between the pilsner malts from various manufacturers).

I think for bittering almost anything will do, but I'd try and find a hop variety with low cohomulone content. So Chinook, the old taste buds grinder, is not suitable imho.
 

Oleson M.D.

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Thanks for sharing! Does not seem to be too difficult... This may be a stupid question (I have never done a more advanced mash than a single temp), how long is mash out? I mean, I raise the temp to 78 C, but for how long do I hold it until I bring the wort to a boil? Again, sorry if this is a stupid question

Not a stupid question!
I bring the mash up to 170F, and let it rest for 5 minutes or so. Then the sparge is started, with 170 degree water.
Just run off into the boil kettle until you have the desired volume.

Pretty easy.
 

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Not a stupid question!
I bring the mash up to 170F, and let it rest for 5 minutes or so. Then the sparge is started, with 170 degree water.
Just run off into the boil kettle until you have the desired volume.

Pretty easy.

Any adjustments for BIAB?
 

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Sorry, I cannot help you on this one.
We have a separate mash tun, hot liquor tank, and boil kettle. Old fashioned, I guess.
That's ok. After 200 batches I figure it's time I tried something new and have never step mashed so I'll go grab a calculator and see what happens. I'll be adding hot water, not direct fire for temp step as I just don't have the setup.
 

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That's ok. After 200 batches I figure it's time I tried something new and have never step mashed so I'll go grab a calculator and see what happens. I'll be adding hot water, not direct fire for temp step as I just don't have the setup.

I have been experimenting with BIAB step mashing. General concept is mash in at a low temperature with just enough water to get 1.25 qt per pound of grist. You could go as low as 1 qt per pound. Let it rest for 30 minutes. 156*F water into 66* grist gave me 145F* first step mash temp. Bring enough water to a boil so you reach 160* after adding the boiling water to the wort, rest another 20 min. For me this took all the remaining water to get it up to temp for the second step. Then lift the bag above the kettle and heat the wort in the kettle to 178 and let the grain bag back down and stir. This gave me 170*. Hold that for 10 minutes then lift, drain and squeeze the bag as you like. Brewers Friend has a calculator for this but I find with my equipment, adding the amount of boiling water they recommended did not raise the wort temperature as much as predicted.
 

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On BIAB, I skip the mashout. Typically you are raising the temperature up to boiling at that point, it is going to pass through the mashout temp range in 5-10 minutes anyway, so you will be denaturing the enzymes on your way to boil.
 
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Matheos

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Not a stupid question!
I bring the mash up to 170F, and let it rest for 5 minutes or so. Then the sparge is started, with 170 degree water.
Just run off into the boil kettle until you have the desired volume.

Pretty easy.
Ok. Thanks! May give the mash steps a try :)

Well, "homebrew wisdom" surely dictates that US-05 at 25 Celsius makes an undrinkable mess, but I generally believe homebrewers overestimate the impact of the things they do (such as step mashing) or the ingredients they use (such as the differences between the pilsner malts from various manufacturers).

I think for bittering almost anything will do, but I'd try and find a hop variety with low cohomulone content. So Chinook, the old taste buds grinder, is not suitable imho.
Ok yea thanks. Your comment does not highly motivate me to go for US-05 at this temp, even if it may be overexaggerated "homebrew wisdom". I rather stick to something safe... That lutra pack, even though pricey, looks a lot more appealing now... :p I mean sure I could do Voss too, but then I guess I would get something a bit more fruitier than is to expect from this kind of a beer.
For the bitterings, I do have other hops in my freezer too, I'm sure I will find some low on cohomulone :)
 
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