ProMash Batch Sparge Help

[Moonpile]

We're about to do our second AG on Sunday and I muddled through our first one with regards to designing the mash in ProMash. I hope someone who batch sparges and uses ProMash can help me out on exactly how to enter it in the mash schedule so I can figure out volumes and temperatures, etc.

Here's our specifics. We have a 72 qt Coleman eXtreme MLT, which should be plenty big. We're trying to achieve a 10 gal wort post boil.

Our grain bill is as follows:

Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 88.9    20.00 lbs. Maris Otter                   England        1.038      3
  2.2     0.50 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt                      1.033     12
  8.9     2.00 lbs. Crystal 10L                   America        1.035     10

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.

We want to mash at 150F, with a 1.25 qt/lb ratio. Using the complex mash schedule, here's what I've got so far:

Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: 017 IPA Mash

Total Grain Lbs:   22.50
Total Water Qts:   28.13 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal:    7.03 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass:   0.30
Grain Temp:        60.00 F


                     Step   Rest   Start   Stop  Heat     Infuse   Infuse  Infuse
Step Name            Time   Time   Temp    Temp  Type     Temp     Amount  Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saccarification        5     90    150     150   Infuse   173       28.13   1.25

So far so good (I think, please point out anything I might have done wrong thus far). When I try to add a sparge step, that's where I just am not understanding ProMash. I've tried to read several sites but they seem more focused on converting fly to batch, which is not what I'm trying to do.

How do I enter a Sparge step and have it calculate the infusion amount and temp?

Thanks!

Justin

 

[Bearcat Brewmeister]

Not sure if I am 100% following you, but if you are fly sparging, start draining the tun and sparge with water around 175F. You don't want the overall temperature to go over 170F, so with your 150F mash, you will be fine.

And make sure your grain is truly at 60F. That is the Promash default, but I store mine in the kitchen the night before I brew and it is 70F there. That will make a 2 degree mash temperature difference. Also make sure your tun thermal mass is correct (conduct experiment to verify with just water). There is about a 7 degree strike water temperature difference between your thermal mass of 0.3 compared to a preheated tun (thermal mass 0) like some of us do.

 

[Moonpile]

No, as I said, I'm batch sparging and I can't get it to (automatically) tell me how much more water and at what temperature I should add for the sparge. I figured it out last time through some arcane method that I've now kind of forgotten.

I do intend to measure the temp of the grain before mashing and adjust that setting accordingly.

I preheated the tun last time and the calculations I used came out pretty close when using 0.3 thermal mass. As I said, I was fudging it pretty well though (and the beer came out great!).

 

[Blender]

It's not really batch sparge friendly and really figuring it out is pretty simple with pen and calculator. You want to get roughly half of your volume in the first runnings and then the rest in the 2nd or 3rd.

Have you read Denny Conn's page. It is dead simple and he is the king of batch sparging. http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

Also here is a very good mash calulator. >> http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml

That's what I use as compared to try to figure out Promash. Preheat your cooler.

 

[Moonpile]

I had read Denny Conn's page, but rereading it is helping. I was aware that ProMash is sub-optimal for batch sparging, but though it could be fudged.

Here's what I'm getting now.

Dough in with 28.13 qts (7.03 gal) of water at 173F

If I just ran that off, I'd have 28.13 qts - 8 qts from absorption, or 20.13 qts (5.03 gal). I could add a Mash Out Infusion of 3.98 qts (~1 gal) at 196F to raise the mash temp to 155. I'd then run off just over 6 gal of first runnings.

Then I'd add 20 qts (5 gal) of sparge water to get my remaining volume, but at what temperature?

 

[Blender]

I had read Denny Conn's page, but rereading it is helping. I was aware that ProMash is sub-optimal for batch sparging, but though it could be fudged.

Here's what I'm getting now.

Dough in with 28.13 qts (7.03 gal) of water at 173F

If I just ran that off, I'd have 28.13 qts - 8 qts from absorption, or 20.13 qts (5.03 gal). I could add a Mash Out Infusion of 3.98 qts (~1 gal) at 196F to raise the mash temp to 155. I'd then run off just over 6 gal of first runnings.

Then I'd add 20 qts (5 gal) of sparge water to get my remaining volume, but at what temperature?

Run the sparge water at about 175 or so, it won't raise the temperature above 170. How much do you want to collect before boiling?

 

[Bobby_M]

I'd recommend downloading the trial of Beersmith since it has batch sparging presets built in.

 

[Moonpile]

Ok, I'm trying BeerSmith, and I had looked at it about a year ago. Now it makes more sense to me.

However, I'm choosing "Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge" and I'm still only getting one step, namely "Mash In". Still no info on the Sparge.

Basically, at this point I think I'm just going to do the Mash In as said and then sparge with 175F water using a volume that will make up the difference between what I collect and my desired pre-boil volume. Does that sound right?

 

[Moonpile]

Ok, ok, now I see!!!!!

It doesn't show the batch sparge details in the mash details window. It shows it when you create a Brew Sheet!!

Nice. Bobby_M, I think you just made BeerSmith a sale.

 

[Blender]

Measure your first runnings and then you will know how much to sparge with to get your desired pre-boil volume. You can do 2 sparges as many do here to get your volume.

Heat up plenty of water as it always a good thing to have more rather than less. I personally think you might lose more to absobtion on the first runnings so be prepared.

 

[kappclark]

*Maybe Off-Topic*

Is BeerSmith the only brewing sw which supports batch sparging, or makes batch sparging calcs easy ?

I always just use a notepad, and pen ...

I am using 1.5 qts/ld, and now I think that's wrong .. better get BeerSmith !

 

[Blender]

I use a notepad and pen as well. Why do you think your way is wrong?

 

[Moonpile]

*Maybe Off-Topic*

Is BeerSmith the only brewing sw which supports batch sparging, or makes batch sparging calcs easy ?

I always just use a notepad, and pen ...

I am using 1.5 qts/ld, and now I think that's wrong .. better get BeerSmith !

There's different reasons to use different mash thicknesses.

I will say, I did just buy Beer Smith and I've been using ProMash. Maybe it's just because I'm (very) newly converted, but I think it's a lot better. The brew sheet that you print out is worth it's weight in gold.

 

[Bobby_M]

I have Beer Tools Pro but I think beersmith is a little more intuitive for novice all grainers. There are a lot of settings you should be able to change behind the scenes like the water/grain ratio. I recommend 1.25 qts/lb. I think it allows you to break your sparge into equal portions as well which I also recommend. Finally, bring your sparge temp up to 180 instead of 168 which is probably default.

 

[Moonpile]

I have Beer Tools Pro but I think beersmith is a little more intuitive for novice all grainers. There are a lot of settings you should be able to change behind the scenes like the water/grain ratio. I recommend 1.25 qts/lb. I think it allows you to break your sparge into equal portions as well which I also recommend. Finally, bring your sparge temp up to 180 instead of 168 which is probably default.

It seems to have defaulted to 1.25, perhaps as a function of having chosen "Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge"? I actually haven't seen a setting for mash thickness, so far. EDIT: I found the mash thickness. I can change it when I edit the Mash In step.

It definitely wanted me to use 168F water to sparge. I can set that in the Mash Profile windo. Why 180F?

 

[Bobby_M]

Because you want to raise the grainbed temp up to near 170 during the sparge to increase efficiency. There's also the "mash out" that you can use to raise the temp but I don't find it any benefit at all. It actually reduced my efficiency a bit because it left less room for sparging in the long run.

 

[Moonpile]

Because you want to raise the grainbed temp up to near 170 during the sparge to increase efficiency. There's also the "mash out" that you can use to raise the temp but I don't find it any benefit at all. It actually reduced my efficiency a bit because it left less room for sparging in the long run.

We did a mash out on our first AG, but I think I see why that might impede efficiency. Basically you have more "clean" water to wash the grains with during the sparge.

I have some more questions about setting up Beer Smith but I'm going to post them in the software forum.

 

[Alemental]

Here is complete instructions for batch sparging with Promash:

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=40175

 

[jdoiv]

There is a water needed calculator in promash. If you start a new brewing session, enter your recipe into the session then at the bottom is a water needed tab. Open that up and it will have already entered your water needed for mash and you can adjust your qts/pound ratio. Then just adjust your sparge volume and losses and keep an eye on the amount that makes it to the fermenter until it says 10 gallons. Split the sparge amount in half and you have your batch volumes. Everything you need is in Promash, it's just not always easy to find at first.

 

[Moonpile]

Here is complete instructions for batch sparging with Promash:

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=40175

I have read this page a few times and I think that's how I figured things out for our first AG, and using the water needed as jdoiv mentioned.

That process just never "flowed" easily for me though.