Pretty advanced question I think

[CaptainFrank]

If my brewhouse efficiency in BeerSmith is set at 72% and it determines 1.065 og, than what was my real brewhouse efficiency if I got 1.052 og?
What’s the formula?

 

[RPh_Guy]

72 * 52 / 65 =

 

[CaptainFrank]

So 57.6%?
Lol, it’s that simple? I forgot elementary school math
Thanks

 

[CaptainFrank]

If I keep my mash temp more stable that will improve right?
My mash temp went from 155-148f. I really need a better thermometer so those numbers are approximate, and I used a new pot so I wasn’t able to keep it as stable as usual.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Increasing efficiency is mainly related to:

• Ensuring full extraction -- Tighter crush and/or longer mash time help ensure full mash efficiency.
• Sparge technique -- Fly sparge is most efficient, followed by batch sparge, and then no sparge.
• Avoiding equipment losses -- The less wort left behind in your equipment (mash tun, kettle, tubing, etc.), the more of the grain sugar ends up in your fermenter.

Mash temperature has little effect, but a mash-out step can help increase efficiency a little bit, especially when sparging.
Cheers

 

[CaptainFrank]

Thanks for the info. Maybe I’ll mash longer next time or sparge. I biab for an hour. No sparge

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks for the info. Maybe I’ll mash longer next time or sparge. I biab for an hour. No sparge

No problem. Edited the last post for typos.

Good luck!

 

[eric19312]

Thanks for the info. Maybe I’ll mash longer next time or sparge. I biab for an hour. No sparge

BIAB no sparge tighten up your crush, mash longer, and stir the mash once in a while.

For next batch set your est efficiency to last batch actual efficiency until you get your system dialed in.

 

[Ridenour64]

I did a mash out over the weekend for the first time and it was the first time that I ever beat my predicted OG. I set brewers friend at 75% for OG 1.048 and I hit 1.052 or 3. So I am a believer in that now.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I did a mash out over the weekend for the first time and it was the first time that I ever beat my predicted OG. I set brewers friend at 75% for OG 1.048 and I hit 1.052 or 3. So I am a believer in that now.

Be careful what you believe in lol...
Perhaps your mashout just marginally helped to overcome another issue, like perhaps a poor grain crush?

Crush better and perhaps watch your efficiency climb into the mid eighties or higher, then you’ll have another thing to believe in

Somebody around here once said that the three most important factors affecting efficiency are:
1. Crush
2. Crush
3. Crush

 

[Ridenour64]

The reason I say that though is because a mashout was the only thing I’ve changed. I’ve had my own mill and have not changed the gap.

The only other possible difference this time around was a little more stirring, and I did raise the bag once to boost temp.

I’ve never had bad efficiency, but this was definitely my best thus far.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Be careful what you believe in lol..

Many brewers do report an efficiency increase with a mash out step because it can help overcome other inadequacies, as you said.

Some good reading for anyone interested:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Efficiency#Mash-out

https://pricelessbrewing.github.io/methods/Efficiency/

https://www.beer-simple.com/brewing/2017/11/20/mashing-out-is-dumb-but-do-it-anyway

I agree I wouldn't point to it as a good way to increase efficiency (and I didn't up above ).

 

[Bobby_M]

The other way to figure it out is to go into the session tab of beersmith and enter "actual OG" and hit enter. It will tell you your actual efficiency

 

[LittleRiver]

I did a mash out over the weekend for the first time and it was the first time that I ever beat my predicted OG...

I never do mashouts, and I consistently hit or exceed recipe targets (normally I exceed them). My normal process is:

• crush at .025"
• stir in the grains with a whisk (never had a dough ball)
• full volume mash for one hour (no sparge)
• insulate the kettle during the mash (no recirculation or mid-mash heating)
• don't remove the insulation during the mash (no stirring during the mash)
• let the bag drain over the kettle during the entire boil (no squeezing, let gravity do the work)

As you can see, this is a very simple and easy process, especially considering the good results. As others have pointed out, the key is a fine grain crush.

 

[doug293cz]

If my brewhouse efficiency in BeerSmith is set at 72% and it determines 1.065 og, than what was my real brewhouse efficiency if I got 1.052 og?
What’s the formula?

Without accurate volume measurements (strike volume, sparge volume, pre-boil volume, post-boil volume, and volume to fermenter), grain bill weight, and SG measurements (end of mash, pre-boil, post-boil) it's not possible to answer your question. If you want to understand what is going on, then you have to collect complete and proper data.

Here are the formulas for efficiency:

Conversion Efficiency = Weight of extract (sugar mostly) created in mash / Maximum potential weight of extract from grain bill

Lauter Efficiency = Weight of extract collected in BK / Weight of extract created in mash

Mash Efficiency = Conversion Efficiency * Lauter Efficiency = Weight of extract collected in BK / Maximum potential weight of extract from grain bill

Brewhouse Efficiency = Mash Efficiency * Volume in fermenter / Post-boil volume [assumes no fermentables added in boil]

Conversion efficiency is calculated from the weighted average extract potential of the grain bill, the strike water volume and the end of mash SG. The method is described here. Conversion efficiency is primarily determined by fineness of crush and mash time/temp. A mash out may increase conversion efficiency in cases where conversion was incomplete (due primarily incomplete gelatinization of the starch) within the allotted mash time

Lauter efficiency is calculated from the conversion efficiency and mash efficiency as:

Lauter Efficiency = Mash Efficiency / Conversion Efficiency​

Lauter efficiency is determined by how much extract (mostly sugar) is left in the spent grain and MLT after lautering is complete. Sparging will always have a higher lauter efficiency than no-sparge, all else being equal. Minimizing grain absorption (eg. by squeezing or long draining) and undrainable MLT volume will help maximize your lauter efficiency. Lauter efficiency always decreases with increasing grain bill weights for the same pre-boil volume. There is no way around this.

Most brewing software will calculate your mash efficiency for you given your grain bill, pre-boil volume, and pre-boil SG. The calculation can also use grain bill, post-boil volume, and post-boil SG, if no fermentables were added during the boil. You can do a fairly accurate approximate calculation from:

Pre-boil Volume * (Pre-boil SG - 1) / Grain bill weight * (weighted average grain potential - 1)​

The above formula assumes the grain potential is given in SG form. You maximize mash efficiency by maximizing both conversion efficiency and lauter efficiency. Note that pre-boil SG measurements are unreliable if the wort is not well homogenized (stirred like crazy) when using a sparged process.

Brewhouse efficiency determined by mash efficiency and volume losses from BK to fermenter. You maximize brewhouse efficiency by minimizing volume losses and maximizing conversion efficiency and lauter efficiency.

Brew on

 

[myndflyte]

Not sure what your gap on your mill is but since you BIAB, tighten it down as far as it will go and do a double crush. I never do a mash out either. I feel like the tight double crush is what consistently gets me 80% efficiency.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The regulars tend to assume everyone has a mill

@doug293cz
Thanks for that, again. I knew I wasn't using the right words but was too lazy to look them up.

I've been wondering: Does stirring or recirculating actually increase efficiency? I see people making these claims and don't understand why or know whether it's true always vs sometimes vs never.

 

[dmtaylor]

I've been wondering: Does stirring or recirculating actually increase efficiency? I see people making these claims and don't understand why or know whether it's true always vs sometimes vs never.

I don't stir after the first 5 minutes and my average brewhouse efficiency used to be 92%. I brought it down to 82% now just to be closer to "normal".

So no. I don't think stirring does much. At least not if your crush isn't horrible. The one thing it might do is to keep the temperature more consistent throughout the mash. But I don't think mash temperature is super critical as long as the AVERAGE is maintained within a reasonable range of roughly 147-158 F or thereabouts.

P.S. And I never mash out. Just drain and friggin get it up to the boil and it mashes out all by itself.

 

[doug293cz]

...

I've been wondering: Does stirring or recirculating actually increase efficiency? I see people making these claims and don't understand why or know whether it's true always vs sometimes vs never.

It can under some conditions. Stirring and recirculation can speed up the movement of large, but soluble, starch molecules away from the surface of the girts. This then allows water to more rapidly diffuse into, and gelatinize more of the still solid starch, since it doesn't have to diffuse thru a thicker layer of mushy, gelatinized starch clinging to the surface of the grits. (A shorter diffusion path provides faster diffusion.) Also, agitation increases the extract concentration gradient near the surface of the grits, which also speeds up diffusion. Additionally, stirring can mechanically knock some of the gelatinized, but not yet soluble, starch off of the surface of the grits, speeding things up even further.

Since the primary effect of agitation is to speed up gelatinization, and therefor the conversion process overall, it is more beneficial for larger grits (coarser crush) that takes longer to compete conversion, than smaller grits (finer crush.) Pretty much the same benefit can be achieved with longer mash times for coarser crushes.

Brew on

 

[CaptainFrank]

Thanks for the info doug293cz, now it’s gonna take me an extra hour to calculate everything all the way through my brew. Pandora’s box is open lol.
I fermented this beer in a controlled fermentation chamber (for the first time) at 62-66 degrees using safale us04. It looks beautiful and comes in at 1.004fg, for a little on the high side 6.3abv. That’s fine with me since it’s a faketoberfest anyway, but now that I got my temp controlled fermentation chamber up and running it will be a let down next year when I go for a true Oktoberfest.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Crush(or lack of it) does seem to be the biggest driver of efficiency. I do BIAB with batch sparge and it seemed to also help a little in my setup to increase the mash water volume a little too.

 

[TGFV]

Crush alone brought my efficiency up from the low 70s to the mid and high 80s. Plus since I got a Corona, I easily grind to in-between flour and meal.

I also do extended mashes, but that's mostly for convenience, since I get housework done during this time to keep SWMBO happy.

 

[Nubiwan]

I never do mashouts, and I consistently hit or exceed recipe targets (normally I exceed them). My normal process is:

• crush at .025"
• stir in the grains with a whisk (never had a dough ball)
• full volume mash for one hour (no sparge)
• insulate the kettle during the mash (no recirculation or mid-mash heating)
• don't remove the insulation during the mash (no stirring during the mash)
• let the bag drain over the kettle during the entire boil (no squeezing, let gravity do the work)

As you can see, this is a very simple and easy process, especially considering the good results. As others have pointed out, the key is a fine grain crush.

I do all those but I do open the kettle to stir up grains and, like you, never get dough balls of grain. I squeeze the bag of every ounce of juice I can get from her. I find it improves my efficiency. I do not sparge. My efficiency and targets are always met with my process.

I usually only mash for an hour, and my temp might change 2-3 degrees. I am of the opinion it will make no difference if it fluctuates, or you somehow keep the mash temp constant. No difference in how the beer will taste that is.

My last batch I let mash for almost 3 hours. I had to go somewhere. My mash temp fluctuated from 154-146 over those 3 hours. My OG was 1.056 and FG is going to be 1.008 or less. Very good attenuation which I assume can be attributed to the mash temp falling through 146 degrees and breaking down longer sugars.

My beer samples have taste quite decent.

 

[jdudek]

72 * 52 / 65 =

That would assume constant volume would it not? If OP had lower OG but higher volume then efficiency could still be 72 (or better)

 

[jdudek]

So I’ve been wondering for some time now. How do the 3V folks get stellar efficiencies? I know fly sparging can be very efficient but that won’t help if conversion efficiency wasn’t good to begin with. And since they are sparging they need fairly large crush. So what do they do to get high conversion with Coarse crush??

 

[RPh_Guy]

That would assume constant volume would it not? If OP had lower OG but higher volume then efficiency could still be 72 (or better)

Right.

So what do they do to get high conversion with Coarse crush??

Conditioning, recirculation, good temperature control (step mash), and good pH control (5.4-5.5 @20°C).

 

[jdudek]

Conditioning, recirculation, good temperature control (step mash), and good pH control (5.4-5.5 @20°C).

Interesting... With my 1V setup I tried multiple attempts with temp control, recirc and good PH. I always had bad conversion efficiency (80s) Could be that the store crush was just really coarse. I never step mashed my understanding was that it was a bad idea with highly modified malt. I always seem to get a compacted mash even with really slow recirc.

 

[cmac62]

Conditioning the grain when crushing and re-circulation seemed to help the most, of course the herms helps with temp control also.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Could be that the store crush was just really coarse.

If there were uncrushed kernels, conversion efficiency would definitely take a big hit.

 

[DannyBoy270]

Thanks for the info. Maybe I’ll mash longer next time or sparge. I biab for an hour. No sparge

I BIAB and mash for 90 mins, then squeeze out the bag while my wort comes to a boil. No sparging. Likewise, I just let the homebrew shop crush my malt. I leave my target efficiency around 75% and haven't had issues hitting my targets

 

[bracconiere]

I did a mash out over the weekend for the first time and it was the first time that I ever beat my predicted OG. I set brewers friend at 75% for OG 1.048 and I hit 1.052 or 3. So I am a believer in that now.

i've been saying that since this thread was new, lol.....i go from 1.060 to 1.068....about the same increase, but i only mash out at 162f to keep alpha active, and add gluco so wouldn't know what it does to the FG......

 

[jimyoung]

I BIAB, and played with lots of variables. I monitor the mash with my hydrometer and it always takes >75 minutes to stabilize. Squeezing doesn't seem to get me anything but more beer and more haze (?). Pre-COVID I was able to set the LHBS mill really tight but now they do it for me, I did notice a drop in efficiency... so for me, tight crush or double, and watch the mash and let it tell you when it's done.

 

[jdudek]

Squeezing doesn't seem to get me anything but more beer and more haze (?)

Squeezing will give you more volume... won't change the gravity. All you're doing is extracting liquid from the grain, not more sugar from the grain. Not sure about haze though, but not sure why squeezing would increase haze

 

[VikeMan]

Squeezing will give you more volume... won't change the gravity.

This is true if not sparging. But if you squeeze after sparging, you'll actually decrease the gravity of the mixed wort.

 

[InspectorJon]

More volume at the same gravity from the same grain bill will give you higher efficiency, so squeezing the bag should increase efficiency as long as more water is not added before squeezing if one is chasing efficiency.

 

[jdudek]

But if you squeeze after sparging, you'll actually decrease the gravity of the mixed wort.

good point... thanks for the correction.

 

[bracconiere]

maybe i'm wrong...but squeezing would increase volume, thus increasing OG...because you'll get more wort to boil down, and in turn concentrate the sugar....because water evaporates during a boil, not the sugar....

 

[VikeMan]

maybe i'm wrong...but squeezing would increase volume, thus increasing OG...because you'll get more wort to boil down, and in turn concentrate the sugar....because water evaporates during a boil, not the sugar....

Yes, if you have two worts of different volumes but the same gravity, and boil them down to the same volume, the one that originally had the bigger volume will have a higher post-boil OG.

This supposes boiling down to a to a target volume. But most people boil for "X" minutes, and hitting a target volume is just a function of dialing in the process (total water in this case).

 

[doug293cz]

This is true if not sparging. But if you squeeze after sparging, you'll actually decrease the gravity of the mixed wort.

This is overly simplistic. If you do two mashes and lauters with the same grain bill, and the same pre-boil volume, one no-sparge and one sparged, the sparged batch will have higher pre-boil SG, even though the sparged wort will be much lower SG than the non-sparged wort. It's the extra sugar in the initial runnings of the sparged batch that tips the scales.

Likewise sparged and squeezed (whether squeezed after initial run-off, or sparged run-off, or both) will have higher SG than not squeezed, for the same pre-boil volume.

Sparging and squeezing both get additional sugar out of the grain mass. Less sugar left in the grain mass, the higher the lauter efficiency. And the higher the SG for a fixed pre-boil volume.

Of course if you put the same amount of sugar in a lower volume and a higher volume, the higher volume will be lower SG.

Brew on

 

[VikeMan]

This is overly simplistic. If you do two mashes and lauters with the same grain bill, and the same pre-boil volume, one no-sparge and one sparged, the sparged batch will have higher pre-boil SG, even though the sparged wort will be much lower SG than the non-sparged wort. It's the extra sugar in the initial runnings of the sparged batch that tips the scales.

Yes, I agree with all that. My response was to one very specific statement.