Pressure carbonating bottles

[Owly055]

I plan to experiment with pressure carbonating bottles using EZcap swing top bottles. I won't go into the details of the apparatus........ I post photos when I get it built and working.

What I need to know, and will find out either by good advice on this forum, or by experimentation.......... probably both, is what procedure to use.

The plan is to build a device that will hold a number of bottles.... the prototype will be a 2 bottle unit. The bottles will be clamped into it with seals on top to hold the CO2 pressure. I will pressure to a suitable pressure with the beer at "room temp", shaking to promote absorption. The bottles will then be chilled and removed from the fixture and the tops set in place (again these are swing top bottles)

I have no doubt that this will work once I get pressures and temps figured out. What I don't know is what combination to use. My initial experiments will probably be at 80F using about 25-30 psi. The chill will be to about 29F. I may put them in the freezer for a measured length of time to achieve this.

I'd love to hear some useful, experience based suggestions.

H.W.

 

[doug293cz]

Sounds like way more trouble than just counter pressure filling from a carbonated keg.

According to this, you need ~35psi @ 80°F to get 2.5 volumes of CO2. Make sure you have bottle explosion containment around your apparatus.

Your batch fill time will also be ridiculously long unless you have lots of fixtures you can put in your freezer. Take about two hours (just a guess) per bottle to cool from 80° to 30°, so bottling time = (#_of_bottles / #_of_fixtures) * 2 hrs + fill_shake&cap_time. Sounds like a long day bottling.

You're not by any chance related to Rube Goldberg are you?

Have fun, but don't hurt yourself.

 

[Owly055]

Sounds like way more trouble than just counter pressure filling from a carbonated keg.

According to this, you need ~35psi @ 80°F to get 2.5 volumes of CO2. Make sure you have bottle explosion containment around your apparatus.

Your batch fill time will also be ridiculously long unless you have lots of fixtures you can put in your freezer. Take about two hours (just a guess) per bottle to cool from 80° to 30°, so bottling time = (#_of_bottles / #_of_fixtures) * 2 hrs + fill_shake&cap_time. Sounds like a long day bottling.

You're not by any chance related to Rube Goldberg are you?

Have fun, but don't hurt yourself.

You make it sound much more complicated and time consuming than it has to be. With enough carbonators to do a batch....... my batches are 2.5 gallons, I should be able to rack and set them in the fixtures, hook up to CO2 and forget about them until I have time to chill and flip the tops on. I suspect that the fridge is cold enough.

Obviously the temp and pressure need to correspond for the desired volumes. I can't imagine your concern about bursting bottles?? That makes no sense at all. With CO2 you have a controlled environment well within the capacity of the bottles..... unlike bottle conditioning. My EZCap swing top bottles are rated for a burst pressure well above 100 psi....... very strong bottles.

I built a mock up of a 3 bottle carbonator today...... which makes more sense for me than a two bottle unit as my typical yield is 15 half liter bottles. With 3 bottles on a base and a corresponding 3 bottle carbonator head, a single threaded rod in the center can apply equal pressure to the seals on each bottle....... like a 3 legged stool it will pull down level. A wing nut will draw it down. My design is simple, though I will have to do a bit of lathe work to make the stainless steel caps from round shaft. I should be able to knock out those 15 pieces in a couple of hours on the lathe once I have a working prototype and know what I need.

For me it makes more sense than messing with kegs and beer guns.......... consistent carbonation, and no sediment.


H.W.

 

[Yooper]

For me it makes more sense than messing with kegs and beer guns.......... consistent carbonation, and no sediment.

And that's great, if it works for you.

But I don't know of anyone who "messes with kegs".

Kegging is: put beer in keg. Put keg in kegerator. The end.

To bottle from the keg: Use a piece of tubing. Turn down regulator. Put beer in bottles. Cap. The end.

it's super easy, uncomplicated, and so easy even a monkey could do it.

I have sediment-free beer that retains carbonation, and I have the medals and ribbons from competitions to prove it.

For you, if regular kegging doesn't work, and this does, that is great and it is another option for those who want to work for it.

 

[doug293cz]

You make it sound much more complicated and time consuming than it has to be. With enough carbonators to do a batch....... my batches are 2.5 gallons, I should be able to rack and set them in the fixtures, hook up to CO2 and forget about them until I have time to chill and flip the tops on. I suspect that the fridge is cold enough.

Obviously the temp and pressure need to correspond for the desired volumes. I can't imagine your concern about bursting bottles?? That makes no sense at all. With CO2 you have a controlled environment well within the capacity of the bottles..... unlike bottle conditioning. My EZCap swing top bottles are rated for a burst pressure well above 100 psi....... very strong bottles.

I built a mock up of a 3 bottle carbonator today...... which makes more sense for me than a two bottle unit as my typical yield is 15 half liter bottles. With 3 bottles on a base and a corresponding 3 bottle carbonator head, a single threaded rod in the center can apply equal pressure to the seals on each bottle....... like a 3 legged stool it will pull down level. A wing nut will draw it down. My design is simple, though I will have to do a bit of lathe work to make the stainless steel caps from round shaft. I should be able to knock out those 15 pieces in a couple of hours on the lathe once I have a working prototype and know what I need.

For me it makes more sense than messing with kegs and beer guns.......... consistent carbonation, and no sediment.

Got any pictures of your mock up? I'm having a hard time visualizing a really simple way to do this. You've got me intrigued now.

I was thinking more of standard crown bottles. 100 psi rated bottles should be fine.

You will need to shake enough to equilibrate the dissolved CO2 before chilling. You can't get enough gas in the headspace to get 2-3 volumes in it.

Brew on

 

[Owly055]

Got any pictures of your mock up? I'm having a hard time visualizing a really simple way to do this. You've got me intrigued now.

I was thinking more of standard crown bottles. 100 psi rated bottles should be fine.

You will need to shake enough to equilibrate the dissolved CO2 before chilling. You can't get enough gas in the headspace to get 2-3 volumes in it.

Brew on

My mock up is really crude.....not photo worthy. It was mainly done to work out the geometry of a 3 bottle assembly. I'll describe it more carefully........ and post a photo when I get a working prototype built. The mock up was built ONLY to work out dimensions and visualize potential problems.

The top piece: ***mock up only***

A roughly triangular piece of wood (mock up) with 3 short dowels that are 5/8" diameter projecting downward to fit into the bottles. Each dowel fits in one bottle. The dowels are drilled through to allow lines to go into the top of each to supply CO2.

A center hole equidistant from each dowel is for the hold down rod....... 3/8" threaded rod

A bottom piece of wood for the bottle bottoms to rest on, which also has a 3/8" hole for the threaded rod. On the working prototype, the base will be routed with 3 circular depressions to hold the bottle bottoms.


I keep upgrading and simplifying my design.....in my sketches, to make it simpler and easier to build. The 5/8" diameter dowel was used to center the bottles. I'm considering several other options including simply using the caps for flip top bottles, drilling and tapping each one to accept a small stainless bolt that is center drilled.... This is a very doable option and I'll probably resort to it. It will utilize a piece that is already made and works. I can easily run a quarter inch bolt through this. If done this way, I can drill the length of the bolt, cut off the head, and press it through the plate. A 1/8" hole through the center of the bolt to carry CO2, and the hoses can clamp right to the top ends of the bolts.
The goal is fast, simple, functional, and cheap............

Shaking vigorously a couple of times a day shouldn't be too much of an ordeal..... If a person got really lazy he could build a shaker pretty easily.


H.W.

 

[doug293cz]

Ok, I think I've got a better idea of what you have in mind now. Custom machining is only cheap if you aren't paying someone to do it. Sounds like you have pretty decent shop facilities available to you, and that you like to tinker and build things.

Brew on

 

[Owly055]

Ok, I think I've got a better idea of what you have in mind now. Custom machining is only cheap if you aren't paying someone to do it. Sounds like you have pretty decent shop facilities available to you, and that you like to tinker and build things.

Brew on

Doug:
I do have a pretty good shop, and build things all the time. My latest plan which will use the caps for flip top bottles could actually be done with little more than a drill press and a tap of suitable size. I've decided to use 5/16 bolts instead of 1/4 for more leeway for my hole. It's actually fairly easy to drill the length of a bolt using just a drill press. Clamp the bolt in the chuck and the bit in the drill press vice..... If you do a decent job of centering it, it will drill right through just like a lathe..... a tap to tap the caps..... a hack saw to cut the heads off bolts.. etc. I'm trying to do this with minimal equipment, and "blaze a path" anybody can follow.

Unfortunately there are many folks out there that lack even such basic tools as a drill press, torch, welder, taps and dies, etc........ Things I can't imagine living without. I've thought many times that urban areas need a "big boys club" with a shop building and equipment people who live the sterile condo existence can use for projects. There are folks who don't have any desire to work with their hands..........but many who are frustrated by lack of space and tools.

H.W.

 

[doug293cz]

Doug:
I do have a pretty good shop, and build things all the time. My latest plan which will use the caps for flip top bottles could actually be done with little more than a drill press and a tap of suitable size. I've decided to use 5/16 bolts instead of 1/4 for more leeway for my hole. It's actually fairly easy to drill the length of a bolt using just a drill press. Clamp the bolt in the chuck and the bit in the drill press vice..... If you do a decent job of centering it, it will drill right through just like a lathe..... a tap to tap the caps..... a hack saw to cut the heads off bolts.. etc. I'm trying to do this with minimal equipment, and "blaze a path" anybody can follow.

Unfortunately there are many folks out there that lack even such basic tools as a drill press, torch, welder, taps and dies, etc........ Things I can't imagine living without. I've thought many times that urban areas need a "big boys club" with a shop building and equipment people who live the sterile condo existence can use for projects. There are folks who don't have any desire to work with their hands..........but many who are frustrated by lack of space and tools.

Hadn't seen the reverse geometry for drilling thru bolts/rod before. Not sure I'll ever have a need for it, but I learned something new.

I still have doubts about your method being of wide interest, especially for people with kegging capability. I do find it to be an intriguing technical challenge, and am interested in seeing the final results.

I really like the idea of shared shop space, however the liability might be a nightmare. Folks screwing up equipment they don't know how to use would probably lead to very high maintenance costs. Although, I do have a friend who lives part of the year in a retirement community in FL, and they have a shared shop.

Brew on

 

[DurtyChemist]

When you remove the bottles how are you going to eliminate the 'I just opened a beer and recapped it' effect? Are you planning to move really quick and cap the bottles after removing them?

This still sounds like much more work and money than spending $85 for a Blichmann beer gun and some fittings and hose.

 

[Owly055]

When you remove the bottles how are you going to eliminate the 'I just opened a beer and recapped it' effect? Are you planning to move really quick and cap the bottles after removing them?

This still sounds like much more work and money than spending $85 for a Blichmann beer gun and some fittings and hose.

Let me repeat myself yet again..... I'm not intending to go to kegs. They are not a practical option for me............ The beer gun is only an option if you are kegging. In my brewing operation where I brew 2.5 gallons per week, kegging would be beyond absurd. I would need quite a collection of kegs, nor do I have space for a kegerator. Bottles are for me. I have absolutely zero intention of scaling up to larger batches...... I brew for the joy of experimenting and designing recipes, playing with hop varieties and enjoying variety in my beer. The only other option for pressure carbonating available to me is to go to plastic bottles and carbonator caps......... which doesn't interest me at all. It makes no sense at all to rack into a keg just to carbonate and fill bottles.

I'm not sure what the "I just opened a beer and recapped it effect" is....... Please explain this.... Straight out of the fridge, held under CO2 pressure, I can't see any significant oxygenation as a result of removing and capping the bottles.......... a matter of mere seconds. The absorbed CO2 will be bubbling off to some extent during this operation, flushing the bottle's empty space. I would classify this as "much ado about nothing" to borrow William Shakespeare's play title yet again.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

I've been through two iterations of my bottle carbonator. The first version simply used lines to the bottles and a common on/off valve. It was not very good as the beer would tend to go up the lines in the process. The second was just like the carbonation cap that is commercially available, except it works with swing top bottles. Each temporary cap uses an ordinary tire valve core, and in fact the next iteration will simply use a tubless tire valve stem that will be clamped to the top of the bottle....... cheap and simple. A central "draw bolt" holds 3 caps down onto three bottles, and you air them up with a CO2 bottle with a hose and a tire air chuck.

The problem is that quite a bit of agitation seems to be necessary to make the liquid absorb CO2, and I really don't have the patience to stand there and shake bottles.

The solution is a shaker...... which I have not yet built, but will consist of an old ATV tire bolted down to a piece of plywood, with a plywood disk bolted down to the top of it. an electric motor with an eccentric weight will be mounted to the bottom of the plywood, and my bottle fixture will attach to the top. When the motor is started, everything will shake violently.... Is this crazy or what ;-)

My bottle fixture is designed for 3 bottles currently as one central bolt can hold equal tension down on three bottle caps. Ultimately I want the shaker to handle 9 or 12 bottles at once. I'll pressure them up to 30 psi, shake, pressure up again, and repeat, etc....

The object is to have sediment free homebrew..... I intend ultimately to filter, with good predictable carbonation..............

H.W.

 

[augiedoggy]

Let me repeat myself yet again..... I'm not intending to go to kegs. They are not a practical option for me............ The beer gun is only an option if you are kegging. In my brewing operation where I brew 2.5 gallons per week, kegging would be beyond absurd. I would need quite a collection of kegs, nor do I have space for a kegerator. Bottles are for me. I have absolutely zero intention of scaling up to larger batches...... I brew for the joy of experimenting and designing recipes, playing with hop varieties and enjoying variety in my beer. The only other option for pressure carbonating available to me is to go to plastic bottles and carbonator caps......... which doesn't interest me at all. It makes no sense at all to rack into a keg just to carbonate and fill bottles.

I'm not sure what the "I just opened a beer and recapped it effect" is....... Please explain this.... Straight out of the fridge, held under CO2 pressure, I can't see any significant oxygenation as a result of removing and capping the bottles.......... a matter of mere seconds. The absorbed CO2 will be bubbling off to some extent during this operation, flushing the bottle's empty space. I would classify this as "much ado about nothing" to borrow William Shakespeare's play title yet again.

H.W.

How would kegging be absurd? If you brew that much a week surely your consuming it just as fast? a coulpe 2.5-3 gallon kegs is a lot more practical than all that bottling every week.... its a lot of extra work for what? Do you sell your bottled beer or something? or do you have a beer cellar full of bareley wines and heavy beers that your aging? otherwise I dont see the logic to saying its absurd at all..

I rarely ever bottle once I discovered how much more sense kegging makes...

bottled beer goes flat (or close to it) once you open and recap it without measures to replace the now oxygen with pressurized co2 again.. its as simple as that. the head space in an unpened bottle of beer is pressurized co2.The instant its opened its gone... if the beer is overcarbed going into the bottle this can compensate for this to some degree.

I'm no rocket scientist but I believe this is what DurtyChemist is referring to and overcarbing the beer with a beergun overcomes this issue to a degree as well as working to replace the air with co2 in the neck if I understand how it works....With a foamy head you can remove the oxygen in the deadspace but it doesnt address the pressure in the bottle.. Since you arent doing this The question remains how are you going to keep the bottles from going flat? do you plan on overcarbing the beer on its way to the bottle to pressurize it?
I was under the impression that even bottles filled with the beergun wont stay carbonated as well for as long. Is that wrong?

It all seems like an overcomplicated "Cobbled " system to me...

they make sediment trap caps that work very well BTW...

 

[Owly055]

How would kegging be absurd? If you brew that much a week surely your consuming it just as fast? a coulpe 2.5-3 gallon kegs is a lot more practical than all that bottling every week.... its a lot of extra work for what? Do you sell your bottled beer or something? or do you have a beer cellar full of bareley wines and heavy beers that your aging? otherwise I dont see the logic to saying its absurd at all..

I rarely ever bottle once I discovered how much more sense kegging makes...

bottled beer goes flat (or close to it) once you open and recap it without measures to replace the now oxygen with pressurized co2 again.. its as simple as that. the head space in an unpened bottle of beer is pressurized co2.The instant its opened its gone... if the beer is overcarbed going into the bottle this can compensate for this to some degree.

I do not have the space for a kegerator, and kegging my small batches would involve a lot of investment in kegs.... as I brew 2.5 gallon brews. I normally have at least 5 brews "on deck" as I like variety.... one of the reasons I brew small. Thus far in 2015, I've brewed 11 times.......... I expect to brew two more batches before the end of February. It would take quite a few kegs to deal with the variety of beers I produce...... It simply does not make sense for me. I can do my carbonating out in the shop using my big CO2 bottle that I use for welding.

If I had a larger home where I could set up a bar and a decent size kegerator..... It's workable for some folks... not for me.

H.W.

 

[augiedoggy]

I do not have the space for a kegerator, and kegging my small batches would involve a lot of investment in kegs.... as I brew 2.5 gallon brews. I normally have at least 5 brews "on deck" as I like variety.... one of the reasons I brew small. Thus far in 2015, I've brewed 11 times.......... I expect to brew two more batches before the end of February. It would take quite a few kegs to deal with the variety of beers I produce...... It simply does not make sense for me.

If I had a larger home where I could set up a bar and a decent size kegerator..... It's workable for some folks... not for me.

H.W.

Now that I think about it, arent you the same Guy who went on in another thread about how you have streamlined and shortened your brewing process to under 3 hrs because your time is more important?? Yet kegging is still absurd to you vs all this?

I am very short on space as well but unpasteurized bottled beer need to be kept chilled too or it oxidizes and changes in flavor due to the yeast still left in the beer... I dont think you will be able to get it all out to prevent this...(this is why beers like sierra Nevada are only shipped refrigerated)

2.5 gallon kegs will fit in a fridge... or tabletop serving device..surely you have room for a fridge perhaps out in the shop?

 

[augiedoggy]

Have you seen these?

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2PPBmJZFd0[/ame]

 

[Owly055]

Now that I think about it, arent you the same Guy who went on in another thread about how you have streamlined and shortened your brewing process to under 3 hrs because your time is more important?? Yet kegging is still absurd to you vs all this?

I am very short on space as well but unpasteurized bottled beer need to be kept chilled too or it oxidizes and changes in flavor due to the yeast still left in the beer... I dont think you will be able to get it all out to prevent this...(this is why beers like sierra Nevada are only shipped refrigerated)

2.5 gallon kegs will fit in a fridge... or tabletop serving device..surely you have room for a fridge perhaps out in the shop?

The shop is frequently not heated as I work in other people's shops a great deal. It would not be impossible to shoehorn a small fridge in. I have a couple of locations where I could potentially put an apartment size fridge if I was really determined........ But as you gathered, I am determined not to go there. I really don't want beer on tap here. That would mean having quite a few kegs. I like being able to grab a few bottles.... a variety, and drop by a friend's house. My beer doesn't sit around long enough to have negative flavor changes from aging and oxidization. I rarely have a beer on deck that's been in the bottle more than 6 weeks. Some like my stouts and porters sit out in the pump house longer, where the year round temp runs around 50F.

I'm making an effort to develop efficient bottle processing and handling and bottling to reduce the time involved. Remember that my efforts to reduce brewing time were focused on the commitment of 4 1/2 hours in a single block, wiping out most of a Saturday doing brewing. I can now brew in 2.5 hours, which means that I can come home from work and brew after dinner, and still get to bed at a decent hour. I can brew more conveniently because it's easier to find the block of time I need. Bottling and bottle processing are small time increments scattered throughout the week. The two station separately valved, kitchen counter mounted bottle washer that drains right into the kitchen sink will make handing empties far more convenient, as will the tote mounted sanitizer... it all takes space of course.

I've thought a great deal about the small kegs....... Thus far I've ruled them out for me.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

Have you seen these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2PPBmJZFd0

I've seen these...........though I bottle ONLY in swing top EzCap bottles, and have a considerable investment in these. Part of the reason to carbonate in bottles is that I have problems with bottle conditioning this time of year...... I can get consistent levels of carbonation doing this. I've looked at many options, and at this point I intend to stay with bottles............

H.W.

 

[augiedoggy]

The shop is frequently not heated as I work in other people's shops a great deal. It would not be impossible to shoehorn a small fridge in. I have a couple of locations where I could potentially put an apartment size fridge if I was really determined........ But as you gathered, I am determined not to go there. I really don't want beer on tap here. That would mean having quite a few kegs. I like being able to grab a few bottles.... a variety, and drop by a friend's house. My beer doesn't sit around long enough to have negative flavor changes from aging and oxidization. I rarely have a beer on deck that's been in the bottle more than 6 weeks. Some like my stouts and porters sit out in the pump house longer, where the year round temp runs around 50F.

I'm making an effort to develop efficient bottle processing and handling and bottling to reduce the time involved. Remember that my efforts to reduce brewing time were focused on the commitment of 4 1/2 hours in a single block, wiping out most of a Saturday doing brewing. I can now brew in 2.5 hours, which means that I can come home from work and brew after dinner, and still get to bed at a decent hour. I can brew more conveniently because it's easier to find the block of time I need. Bottling and bottle processing are small time increments scattered throughout the week. The two station separately valved, kitchen counter mounted bottle washer that drains right into the kitchen sink will make handing empties far more convenient, as will the tote mounted sanitizer... it all takes space of course.

I've thought a great deal about the small kegs....... Thus far I've ruled them out for me.

H.W.

Well if you do ever peruse a fridge in you unheated shop keep in mind (if you dont already know this) that you want an older R12 refrigerant in it as the R134a turns to slush in freezing temps and shortens the life of the compressor a great deal causing them to burn out...Modern fridges are only designed to last for 5 years vs the older ones which doesnt help... (my homemade kegerator fridge at my cabin has been going since the early 50's!)

I have discovered that kegs can be found very cheap by scouring Craigslist and I have about 20 of them now including 10 gallon ones... the downside to this with no basement I have very little cold storage.

 

[drksky]

Have you seen these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2PPBmJZFd0

Not to digress, but that's got to be the most ridiculously designed product for a non-problem that I've ever seen.

 

[Owly055]

Not to digress, but that's got to be the most ridiculously designed product for a non-problem that I've ever seen.

It is neither ridiculous, nor does it address a "non problem". It is an ingenious design that addresses what for many people is a "problem". I often don't take home brew places because for one thing it is easy to stir the sediment up, and for another it means that whoever I'm visiting needs to provide glasses... or I do..... One more thing to wash. Most people don't want to drink the sediment, and in the clear bottles I use, it's unsightly. It's NOT a "non problem"...... just something that rates as a "non problem" in your scheme of things. What matters to one person may not matter to another. There are many products out there that I consider ridiculous.... and I consider address a "non problem".... But someone else might see it entirely differently.........They obviously do or there wouldn't be a market!

H.W.

 

[drksky]

I've carried beer across states in my car. Properly packed in a cooler or case boxes, I've never had issues with sediment getting stirred up.

Don't want to wash glasses? Buy some opaque dixie cups. You could probably buy 5000 of them for what they want for enough of these things to cover one batch of beer. Don't want to use plastic cups? I'm betting 95% of homebrewers would rather drink the yeast than pay for these things.

Sure, it's an ingenious design, but for the amount of beer I brew, I'd have to have enough for at least 6 cases. Don't forget, you can't reuse them until you drink the beer.

 

[Jaymex98]

When autopilot first came out (for airplanes), pilots despised it. Some called it unsafe, others called it unneeded. Now, air lines mandate use of autopilot for safety reasons...among others.

Owly, soon people might be buying the "owly-nator" for HBers who don't want kegs.

That is why this hobby is fun. The limits are your own. I'm going to watch and I might learn something from owly.

I keg, by the way.

 

[Owly055]

When autopilot first came out (for airplanes), pilots despised it. Some called it unsafe, others called it unneeded. Now, air lines mandate use of autopilot for safety reasons...among others.

Owly, soon people might be buying the "owly-nator" for HBers who don't want kegs.

That is why this hobby is fun. The limits are your own. I'm going to watch and I might learn something from owly.

I keg, by the way.

"The limits are your own" A very astute observation.

We all have our ways of doing things, and often consider them the best, most efficient, and smartest. This is a group where everybody is eager to share their knowledge and experience, and many of us are eager to learn from the experience of others. That's what makes it dynamic and exciting.

Like everybody else, in the end I will end up doing things my way.... But what is "my way"? It's a tapestry composed from the experience and ideas of others, combined in my own way with a personal twist. I shamelessly copy every day from the works and ideas of others.... and add my own twist. Some folks are content to do things the way they have always been done, or exactly as someone else has done........ Because it works and works well........ And I often do that, or end up there, going the "long way" round. There's great satisfaction in sharing your ideas and methods with others, particularly when they adopt them and are very satisfied with the results, and great frustration when someone simply will not see........ Just the other day I went through this.... watching men do a job the hard way.... using my equipment, and just absolutely deaf to my suggestions that could save a great deal of time and labor. Ultimately I just had to demonstrate..... I know how it feels!
My efforts to explore shorter mash times and other ways of reducing the brew day depended heavily on the ideas and experiences of others....... For example RMNM inspired me to do the 10 minute mash with his experience in rapid conversion, and the experience of others with their home built immersion chillers, shortened boils, heat sticks, etc. Absolutely nothing original. It would have taken a great deal more time and experimentation. I'd have to try everything myself.


H.W.

 

[tehnick]

I had a problem getting beer to carbonate due to temperature swings. It was too warm inside and too cold outside at below freezing temperatures. To combat this, I did something simple:

I bought a couple corny kegs, a regulator, all tubing, fittings, and a co2 tank. Because I like to share beer, I have a beer gun to fill bottles as needed.

This allows me to carbonate my beer all at the same time without giving myself tendinitis by shaking bottles. I understand if you don't do larger batches of beer and only do 2.5 gallon batches. That's why you can get 2.5g and 3g kegs. They will fit in a fridge easily without converting it and allow you to hit it with gas. You can very easily force carbonate a chilled keg and once pressurized and carbonated you can store it. It will take up less square footage than bottles. Seriously.

Very simple solution without fabricating a bunch of unnecessary BS unless you'd prefer to do something untested and potentially fatal to get the same end result and look cool. There's more than one way to accomplish a task, but forcing gas into a glass receptacle is asking for a Darwin Award.

I have a carbonator cap and use it, but only on 20oz PET bottles to carbonate small samples for testing. If that bottle bursts, I won't have to pull shards of glass from my body.

I guarantee I'll save more time doing single batch carbonation and filling bottles with a beer gun than you will shaking bottles and doing it the way you want to do it. To each their own. The reason I keg is because bottling is a pain in the ass except for a quick impromptu party arrival or bottling a few beers for competition. If you have the room to stack boxes of bottles for small batches, you have enough room for a regular size fridge that will hold around 4 2.5g corny kegs.

Clear bottles? Are you intentionally trying to skunk it like Corona or do you just not know what the **** you're doing?

 

[Owly055]

I had a problem getting beer to carbonate due to temperature swings. It was too warm inside and too cold outside at below freezing temperatures. To combat this, I did something simple:

I bought a couple corny kegs, a regulator, all tubing, fittings, and a co2 tank. Because I like to share beer, I have a beer gun to fill bottles as needed.

This allows me to carbonate my beer all at the same time without giving myself tendinitis by shaking bottles. I understand if you don't do larger batches of beer and only do 2.5 gallon batches. That's why you can get 2.5g and 3g kegs. They will fit in a fridge easily without converting it and allow you to hit it with gas. You can very easily force carbonate a chilled keg and once pressurized and carbonated you can store it. It will take up less square footage than bottles. Seriously.

Very simple solution without fabricating a bunch of unnecessary BS unless you'd prefer to do something untested and potentially fatal to get the same end result and look cool. There's more than one way to accomplish a task, but forcing gas into a glass receptacle is asking for a Darwin Award.

I have a carbonator cap and use it, but only on 20oz PET bottles to carbonate small samples for testing. If that bottle bursts, I won't have to pull shards of glass from my body.

I guarantee I'll save more time doing single batch carbonation and filling bottles with a beer gun than you will shaking bottles and doing it the way you want to do it. To each their own. The reason I keg is because bottling is a pain in the ass except for a quick impromptu party arrival or bottling a few beers for competition. If you have the room to stack boxes of bottles for small batches, you have enough room for a regular size fridge that will hold around 4 2.5g corny kegs.

Clear bottles? Are you intentionally trying to skunk it like Corona or do you just not know what the **** you're doing?

Clear bottles don't skunk beer........ exposure to sunlight does. I don't store bottles for long periods of time..... and they are stored in a dark place. I've had no issues with skunked beer. Clear bottles are a personal preference.... I love to see the beer in the bottle. UV can skunk beer in a very short period of time..... actually while it's sitting in the glass. My fermenters are clear, my bottles are clear, but my house has very little UV penetration. About 25% of my bottles are brown, so I have a "control". If you were here, I'd crack a clear bottle and a brown bottle, pour one into one glass and the other into another glass and have you tell me which was which...........

As far as bottle shards......... that is absurd beyond words. The EzCap bottles I use are rated in excess of 100 psi burst pressure. Where do you get off thinking that carbonating with a regulated pressure is going to create the classic "bottle bomb".... ?? Let's at least deal in reality here instead of descending into a world of illusion and fantasy.... A completely unproductive exercise that definitely does not add to the case you are presenting.

I completely recognize the merits of your arguments.....(please don't try to baffle me with BS.... I wasn't born yesterday) .... But at this time I am NOT going there.




H.W.

 

[1975brewer]

I'm not sure why you think you need a kegerator to carbonate in a keg & then bottle. you buy 1 keg fill it, carb it, bottle it & clean the keg ready for the next batch. I understand if you are enjoying yourself I've done some projects that only had value to me. That being said remember you did ask for our opinions.

 

[tehnick]

blah blah blah

You're right. Let's not deal with fantasy and with reality instead. The reality of it all is that if you were to drink a commercially packaged beer, it would have been done in one of two ways most of the time:

1. Bottle conditioning, which is the only method that should be used with certain styles if doing it right...

2. Conditioned and force carbonated in a brite tank, then transferred to bottles with a slightly higher volume of co2 to accommodate loss before capping.

The way you want to go about this is absurd, and I think the only purpose it serves is for you to try and narcissisticly swing your e-penis around on Internet forums thinking we'll be impressed by your ability to fabricate things. The thing is, it's really nothing more than some backwoods hillbilly nonsense that will waste time that you are so concerned about saving by cutting your mash times and cutting other corners as you've posted elsewhere on the forums. The time you try to save will be wasted in bottling. I'm serious. Others have said the same thing, just in less of a direct ******* way like me.

The bottom line is if you have the cubic feet to store up to 60 500ml flip tops in boxes for up to 5 2.5g batches, you have the space to get a small fridge and stack the boxes on top after bottling. It will take the same real estate, just added vertical height.

Beer absorbs carbonation better when it's cold. Unless you are able to constantly keep your area a consistent temperature all of the time, you won't have the same carbonation levels in the bottles. Trying to dissolve the co2 in warm solution and then chilling it will leave you with undercarbonated beer and guessing the next dose of pressure to get the carbonation right. You need consistent temperatures and it's best to keep it cold.

So, if you want my opinion and the same opinion of others who also know what they are talking about, you'll get a small fridge, one or two 2.5g kegs, a beer gun, and chill your bottles before filling. You can use force carbonation techniques on the entire batch, dial it for 0.2 more volumes of co2 to save any carbonation loss, and fill each bottle one by one in succession, capping, and storing.

Or you can fill two bottles, shake it up, chill it, find you need more carbonation, try to guess the right amount of carbonation in the bottles, and try again. Rinse and repeat as needed.

Or you can do the entire thing from start to finish the way we've recommended to actually save time since you're going to lose any time saved with your methods.
You might as well have the thread closed unless you want to make it a "how i made this" instead of a "what is the best way to do this" and then dismiss our advice. You probably shouldn't have asked for it in the first place since you're obviously set on your way or the highway.

Since I'm not a total dick, I've attached a photo to help with carbonation levels. I also have an industry pdf document on draught beer systems for anyone wanting to perfectly dial in their keezers and kegerators.

/reality

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-DVWcS-Cem7RjhEV2ZQdTA5WFE/edit?usp=docslist_api

 

[Owly055]

You're right. Let's not deal with fantasy and with reality instead. The reality of it all is that if you were to drink a commercially packaged beer, it would have been done in one of two ways most of the time:

1. Bottle conditioning, which is the only method that should be used with certain styles if doing it right...

2. Conditioned and force carbonated in a brite tank, then transferred to bottles with a slightly higher volume of co2 to accommodate loss before capping.

The way you want to go about this is absurd, and I think the only purpose it serves is for you to try and narcissisticly swing your e-penis around on Internet forums thinking we'll be impressed by your ability to fabricate things. The thing is, it's really nothing more than some backwoods hillbilly nonsense that will waste time that you are so concerned about saving by cutting your mash times and cutting other corners as you've posted elsewhere on the forums. The time you try to save will be wasted in bottling. I'm serious. Others have said the same thing, just in less of a direct ******* way like me.

The bottom line is if you have the cubic feet to store up to 60 500ml flip tops in boxes for up to 5 2.5g batches, you have the space to get a small fridge and stack the boxes on top after bottling. It will take the same real estate, just added vertical height.

Beer absorbs carbonation better when it's cold. Unless you are able to constantly keep your area a consistent temperature all of the time, you won't have the same carbonation levels in the bottles. Trying to dissolve the co2 in warm solution and then chilling it will leave you with undercarbonated beer and guessing the next dose of pressure to get the carbonation right. You need consistent temperatures and it's best to keep it cold.

So, if you want my opinion and the same opinion of others who also know what they are talking about, you'll get a small fridge, one or two 2.5g kegs, a beer gun, and chill your bottles before filling. You can use force carbonation techniques on the entire batch, dial it for 0.2 more volumes of co2 to save any carbonation loss, and fill each bottle one by one in succession, capping, and storing.

Or you can fill two bottles, shake it up, chill it, find you need more carbonation, try to guess the right amount of carbonation in the bottles, and try again. Rinse and repeat as needed.

Or you can do the entire thing from start to finish the way we've recommended to actually save time since you're going to lose any time saved with your methods.
You might as well have the thread closed unless you want to make it a "how i made this" instead of a "what is the best way to do this" and then dismiss our advice. You probably shouldn't have asked for it in the first place since you're obviously set on your way or the highway.

Since I'm not a total dick, I've attached a photo to help with carbonation levels. I also have an industry pdf document on draught beer systems for anyone wanting to perfectly dial in their keezers and kegerators.

/reality

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-DVWcS-Cem7RjhEV2ZQdTA5WFE/edit?usp=docslist_api

............7....................................8...............................................9........................................10

You seem to think I haven't looked at the options or studied the technology, or taken any of that seriously.

If I had the space, and was willing to invest the money............ and it adds up to a very significant investment, I probably would try kegging some of my brew. The fact is that I would need around 6 kegs, or would need to keg and then bottle from the kegs. At about $100 each including freight for the small kegs.... which cannot be found used, plus the cost of a bottle, regulator, taps, kegerator, lines, beer gun, etc..... Well, you do the math!!
There is economy of time, and economy of dollars........ How many of us would be brewing if we were told we had to have a Braumeister or a 3 tier brew stand, a Monster Mill, and a kegging setup to even think about home brewing?

There is no doubt that I could buy a single keg, a CO2 bottle, regulator, and beer gun, and simply keg, and bottle from the keg...... But does that really make sense when I brew about once a week on average? I don't think so. I typically have around 4-5 beers on deck at any given time, so the choice is to keg and bottle everything, to bottle condition, or to do some of each. Of course it makes more sense to brew 5 gallon or 11 gallon brews half or a quarter as often......... Then a few larger kegs would work. But contrary to what some folks have tried to accuse me of in the pursuit of reducing my brew day, I actually like to brew, and I like having a constantly changing "beerscape".

I'm well aware of the temperature / absorption factor on CO2.......... I do read up on things and I don't experiment without first finding out what is out there and what other people's successes, and failures are, and how the have approached the same problems.

What I do have is a good shop, and a lot of experience fabricating things, both simple and complex, as well as a lot of materials, and an inclination to figure out how to accomplish things with what I have on hand. How do you do things with what you have instead of simply throwing money at it. I design and build things for people all the time, ordering the materials and components I need, and spending large amounts of money in the process. I am good at keeping the costs down as compared to most people.

The challenge here is to accomplish what I want WITHOUT spending large amounts of money.... Using what I have on hand. I have CO2 in a very large bottle, I have swing top bottles. I have the tools and the know how to fabricate and machine things. I can do this without investing much of anything.

My batch size yields about 15 half liter bottles, and if this technique works decently, there is no reason why I couldn't set things up to process an entire batch in one cycle. Throw all 15 in the fridge to chill, take them out and do several cycles of pressurizing and shaking. If it doesn't work, I'll have some cute bottle caps drilled and tapped with tire valves in them, and a shaker made from a tire and an electric motor with an eccentric weight to go into my pile things that didn't work.......... I do have such a pile ;-) ....... Most things I build work, but in 35 years of designing and building things, the failures pile up........ It's called "experience".


H.W.

 

[Homercidal]

OP asked for suggestions and only wants to argue when he gets them. Nobody can offer advice since the device doesn't make sense to anyone.

Start a new thread when you have some images of your mock up, and are willing to accept suggestions without arguing.