Post Fermentation Problems

[Peter Gustaitis]

I have a continual flaw in my brewing process: Finished beer in keg tastes good the first day, after that it develops a particular off taste. I can only describe as "alcohol -ey" and caramel. The beer also turns a burnt orange color. All within 2 days of kegging. No matter the hops or yeast used or malts the beer ends up with the exact same off taste.
I've contacted friends who own Home brew Supply stores and also are Head Brewers at award winning breweries.
All of them think the issue is "Post Fermentation Oxidation." Trans-2-Nonal has also been mentioned.
Last 6-7 brews have turned worthless.
Other factors:
1. Happens with all grain or extract brewing.
2. Happens using a Boil and Brew electric unit or BIAB using a pot.
3. Wort tastings through process seem to be on the mark.
4. O.G. and F.G readings are on target.
5. I've used CO2 purging 3-4 times and the lit match testing process. I've also purged kegs using 5 gallons of Star San solution pushed through the keg to be purged into a receiving keg.

So I concentrated on Post Fermentation transfers. Last batch was an extract (went back to the basics) and I fermented in a purged closed keg for approx. 2 weeks. Took S.G readings using a "picnic tap" connected directly to the "beer out" post. Never opened the fermenter keg. Beer fermentation and S.G readings were good.
The secondary / serving keg was also purged using 5 gallons of Star San pushed through to a 3rd receiving keg.
The closed transfer between the fermentation keg and the secondary keg went with out a hitch. No problems. Pushed the beer between the "Beer Out" posts using CO2 into the Fermentation Keg.
Cold Crashed at 35 degrees for 2 days. Carbonated at 10 psi for a couple of days then served. I served the beer using the "picnic tap connected directly to the "beer out" post to eliminate any issue with taps and tap hoses, etc.
First serving - tasted good, Next day - same old burnt orange color with the off taste described above.

Appreciate any thoughts and advice. The simpler the solution the better
Thanks!

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

When you cold crashed did you have co2 pressure on your keg...

Your process looks good, to me extracts can all have a common flavor that I don't care for though I've had some I enjoy.. do an all grain batch with your closed transfer and see how that goes.

Next thing to look into is water chemistry.

 

[Peter Gustaitis]

When you cold crashed did you have co2 pressure on your keg...

Your process looks good, to me extracts can all have a common flavor that I don't care for though I've had some I enjoy.. do an all grain batch with your closed transfer and see how that goes.

Next thing to look into is water chemistry.

Thanks. Been a constant source of frustration, either extract or all grain........Next batch is an all grain.

 

[ncbrewer]

Maybe an infection in some post fermentation equipment?

 

[wdavis2003]

Could happen if you're not letting the yeasties finish cleaning up post fermentation or they weren't happy during fermentation i.e., stressed yeast.

Happens to me from time to time. Tastes good going into the fermenter. First tasting has that off flavor. Although, it doesn't explain the burnt orange color..


I don't think you are dealing with an infection

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Good point @wdavis2003 ...

So are you possibly under pitching?

Do you have fermentation temp control?

How long are you fermenting before cold crashing?

 

[hotbeer]

Are you certain there isn't something in your keg or elsewhere in the system that isn't made of some metal or material that really shouldn't be there. Maybe it's being eaten away by the beer and that is what is ruining it.

Ever tested the pH of your beer?

Or perhaps there is a valve or something that that has some very old contamination in it that is infecting your beer. Ball valves if you use them will have a area that you can't clean without taking it apart.

If it is a infection, then I'd think your SG will now be much lower than your FG at kegging time.

 

[Peter Gustaitis]

All great suggestions, I really appreciate you all taking the time.
I'm going to take it one step at a time on my next brew, make sure everything is right.
I thought about yeast and fermentation, but I hit my key SG readings and especially the FG reading...
Thanks Again!

 

[khannon]

I'm with your LHBS on this one. The color change along with caramel flavors scream oxidation/staling to me.
I might try changing out your o-rings on the keg, and even on the jumper you use to transfer. Make sure everything is tightened up correctly also. You could be getting ingress through the o-rings.

What does not sit as well with me is that it happens in a few days. It seems like you would have to push a lot of O2 in (think the party taps that you pump air in to dispense beer).

It does not sound like infection. Typically that is sour(unexpectedly) or thin or other bad flavors

 

[RJK]

I have a continual flaw in my brewing process: Finished beer in keg tastes good the first day, after that it develops a particular off taste. I can only describe as "alcohol -ey" and caramel. The beer also turns a burnt orange color. All within 2 days of kegging. No matter the hops or yeast used or malts the beer ends up with the exact same off taste.
I've contacted friends who own Home brew Supply stores and also are Head Brewers at award winning breweries.
All of them think the issue is "Post Fermentation Oxidation." Trans-2-Nonal has also been mentioned.
Last 6-7 brews have turned worthless.
Other factors:
1. Happens with all grain or extract brewing.
2. Happens using a Boil and Brew electric unit or BIAB using a pot.
3. Wort tastings through process seem to be on the mark.
4. O.G. and F.G readings are on target.
5. I've used CO2 purging 3-4 times and the lit match testing process. I've also purged kegs using 5 gallons of Star San solution pushed through the keg to be purged into a receiving keg.

So I concentrated on Post Fermentation transfers. Last batch was an extract (went back to the basics) and I fermented in a purged closed keg for approx. 2 weeks. Took S.G readings using a "picnic tap" connected directly to the "beer out" post. Never opened the fermenter keg. Beer fermentation and S.G readings were good.
The secondary / serving keg was also purged using 5 gallons of Star San pushed through to a 3rd receiving keg.
The closed transfer between the fermentation keg and the secondary keg went with out a hitch. No problems. Pushed the beer between the "Beer Out" posts using CO2 into the Fermentation Keg.
Cold Crashed at 35 degrees for 2 days. Carbonated at 10 psi for a couple of days then served. I served the beer using the "picnic tap connected directly to the "beer out" post to eliminate any issue with taps and tap hoses, etc.
First serving - tasted good, Next day - same old burnt orange color with the off taste described above.

Appreciate any thoughts and advice. The simpler the solution the better
Thanks!

 

[RJK]

Hi,

Do you think the off-taste could be diacetyl?

I have a continual flaw in my brewing process: Finished beer in keg tastes good the first day, after that it develops a particular off taste. I can only describe as "alcohol -ey" and caramel. The beer also turns a burnt orange color. All within 2 days of kegging. No matter the hops or yeast used or malts the beer ends up with the exact same off taste.
I've contacted friends who own Home brew Supply stores and also are Head Brewers at award winning breweries.
All of them think the issue is "Post Fermentation Oxidation." Trans-2-Nonal has also been mentioned.
Last 6-7 brews have turned worthless.
Other factors:
1. Happens with all grain or extract brewing.
2. Happens using a Boil and Brew electric unit or BIAB using a pot.
3. Wort tastings through process seem to be on the mark.
4. O.G. and F.G readings are on target.
5. I've used CO2 purging 3-4 times and the lit match testing process. I've also purged kegs using 5 gallons of Star San solution pushed through the keg to be purged into a receiving keg.

So I concentrated on Post Fermentation transfers. Last batch was an extract (went back to the basics) and I fermented in a purged closed keg for approx. 2 weeks. Took S.G readings using a "picnic tap" connected directly to the "beer out" post. Never opened the fermenter keg. Beer fermentation and S.G readings were good.
The secondary / serving keg was also purged using 5 gallons of Star San pushed through to a 3rd receiving keg.
The closed transfer between the fermentation keg and the secondary keg went with out a hitch. No problems. Pushed the beer between the "Beer Out" posts using CO2 into the Fermentation Keg.
Cold Crashed at 35 degrees for 2 days. Carbonated at 10 psi for a couple of days then served. I served the beer using the "picnic tap connected directly to the "beer out" post to eliminate any issue with taps and tap hoses, etc.
First serving - tasted good, Next day - same old burnt orange color with the off taste described above.

Appreciate any thoughts and advice. The simpler the solution the better
Thanks!

 

[Peter Gustaitis]

Hi,

Do you think the off-taste could be diacetyl?

I've ruled that out because friends who are master brewers, said it is not. But that doesn't mean it is not.
I'll have to read up again on diacetyl.
Thanks!

 

[pvtpublic]

That definitely sounds like severe oxidation.
1. What kind of fermentor are you using?
2. When do you get it cold?
3. What type of CO2 are you using? (ie. beverage grade, welding tank, etc)

 

[RJK]

I've ruled that out because friends who are master brewers, said it is not. But that doesn't mean it is not.
I'll have to read up again on diacetyl.
Thanks!

If you are getting a butterscotch taste then it will be diacetyl.

To undertake a diacetyl test:

1. Heat some hot water in a pot to around 65 Deg C and turn off the heat

2. Place some of your wort within a small glass jam jar with the lid on

3. Place the jar in the water and leave for around 30 mins

4. Remove the lid of the jam jar and you will smell strong butterscotch if it is diacetyl


The next time you do a brew PLEASE do the following Experiment and you should see a completely different result:

1. Use tap water - not bottled water etc (add 1/2 Campden tablet to 23 litres to remove Chlorine & Chloramine)
2. Aerate your wort once it is down to pitching temperature by agitating it with a paddle
3. Re-hydrate your yeast before pitching by adding it to 250ml of warm water. Leave for 15mins in the water and then add some DME to activate the yeast. Then pitch your yeast ( John J Palmer method)
4. Add around 2 level teaspoons of diammonium phosphate (DAP) or better still use 7g - 9g of Fermaid K per 23 Litres to your wort about 24 hours after you have pitched your yeast.
5. For just this one time try fermenting in a fermentation bucket without an airlock but leave the lid of the bucket loose (I use a Coopers fermentation bucket which is designed to work without an airlock and this made a massive difference)
6. One other thing is to ensure you are not fermenting below the temperature range of your yeast but I am assuming you know this.

Stick to these rules for one batch and I think you will eliminate any chance of stressing your yeast.

You can easily go back to your normal fermentation method after this batch and once you have identified the issue

It sounds like your yeast is stressed based on what you have said but please try what I have said and you will find the outcome is likely to be very different with a fantastic tasting beer.

I had a number of disastrous batches with ongoing 'home-brew' twang and resolved it completely by going back to basics as stated above.

 

[pvtpublic]

It's not diacetyl. Two reasons.
1. Diacetyl doesn't develope seemingly overnight, like oxidation can.
2. Diacetyl doesn't change the color of your beer, like oxidation can.

 

[KeizerBrewr]

It sounds like it could be a yeast and water issue. I would also doublecheck your poppets, pull your kegs completely apart and clean em and sanitize them good. What yeast are you using, where are you getting it and how old is it? T2N could be the case, but some of it definitely sounds like a water/yeast interaction

 

[Broken Crow]

5. I've used CO2 purging 3-4 times and the lit match testing process. I've also purged kegs using 5 gallons of Star San solution pushed through the keg to be purged into a receiving keg.

Just for absolute clarity; Does this mean you filled the keg with 5G of star san and then purged the headspace before transfering to another (with CO2) to another keg? (the wording has me wondering) Also: Did you remember to purge your transfer lines?

 

[pvtpublic]

The StarSan bubbles might be full of regular even after purging the keg

 

[Freddroid]

I have the exact same issues as you do. This is a recurring issue that happens to me almost on all my brews. The only once that it doesn't happen to are very light lagers, and ciders which I make from my own apples. Any type of darker lager or Ales (IPA, Pale whatever). All beers taste great in the fermentor, give it one/two days in the keg and it has completely changed. Also happens when I bottle carb. I've had this issue for 10+ years, and all my equipment has probably changed 2x during this period, so the only thing left is water (I've moved places during this period, by the water has the same origin).