Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[AzOr]

Yes. What’s gonna happen in a few years when the price of used, fast ev’s hit that “first car” price range?

 

[Airborneguy]

I’m so used to the ridiculous acceleration of my Model 3 Performance that I sometimes annoy passengers without realizing it.

It’s great for changing lanes or merging into traffic.

 

[Agent]

Yes. What’s gonna happen in a few years when the price of used, fast ev’s hit that “first car” price range?

If it's anything like Chevy Volt or Apple products, they'll just quietly decrease capacity and/or performance in order to increase longevity.

Then it'll just go regular EV speed.

 

[AzOr]

16yr old me + super fast car = tragic country western song.

Speaking of- I’ll know when ev’s are mainstream when there’s a country western song about driving to the river with fishing rods in my Teslas.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, very nice old hemis didn't come with stability control...or decent suspensions and competent brake systems, for that matter. Not that folks can't still find ways to wrap themselves around poles and trees.

I own two 5 second cars, including a modern hemi. I don't need faster than that.

Cheers!

 

[Kent88]

Country western songs aren't that rural anymore.

 

[Broothru]

Country western songs aren't that rural anymore.

Compliments of David Allen Coe:

"… Well, a friend of mine named Steve Goodman wrote that song
And he told me it was the perfect country & western song
I wrote him back a letter and I told him it was not the perfect country & western song
Because he hadn't said anything at all about mama
Or trains, or trucks, or prison, or getting' drunk

Well, he sat down and wrote another verse to the song and he sent it to me
And after reading it I realized that my friend had written the perfect country & western song
And I felt obliged to include it on this album
The last verse goes like this here

"… Well, I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison
And I went to pick her up in the rain
But before I could get to the station in my pickup truck
She got run over by a damned old train"

… And I'll hang around as long as you will let me
And I never minded standing' in the rain, no
But you don't have to call me darlin', darlin'
You never even called me
Well, I wonder why you don't call me
Why don't you ever call me by my name"

 

[Kent88]

I dunno, I haven't listened to much new country music lately. One of the last mainstream country songs I heard was "she had me at Heads Carolina", and searching that song to see what it's proper name was suggests Jo Dee Messina might've given this new song her blessing, but all that song really does for me is make me sad that I could be listening to "Heads Carolina, Tails California", but instead I'm stuck listening to some dudes tribute to that song. No thanks.

No, I expect that if EVs make it into country songs in a positive way (not like that dude who sings about a Prius driver who "... can't even bait a hook..." ), it'll probably be something mundane like making out in the car at a charging station.

 

[mac_1103]

it'll probably be something mundane like making out in the car at a charging station

Can the average country singer last 20 minutes?

 

[sibelman]

Don't need the speed myself. But Prius-class acceleration seems sub-par. I doubt EVs are headed there.

 

[beren]

What was Elon thinking?

My guess is “more Ketamine”
Or
“I am the greatest, this is the greatest truck ever. Everyone will love it and me. I drew this when I was 6 and now it’s the best!”

 

[beren]

​

• As of March 2024, the Tesla Cybertruck waitlist has over 2 million people. (Fortune)

The waitlist was 2 million people for a few months then it was zero. They’ve had a ton of recalls 8? and also quiet part swaps like motors and batteries. It’s really sad to see something advertised like it was stuck in an inch or two of snow in a video. There’s a great sub called cyber stuck on Reddit that just has tons of pictures and videos of it being terrible. Loads of laughs.

 

[Bilsch]

The waitlist was 2 million people for a few months then it was zero. They’ve had a ton of recalls 8? and also quiet part swaps like motors and batteries. It’s really sad to see something advertised like it was stuck in an inch or two of snow in a video. There’s a great sub called cyber stuck on Reddit that just has tons of pictures and videos of it being terrible. Loads of laughs.

Tesla didn't lose those reservations, they were for the lower priced trim versions which haven't gone up for sale yet. There is just so much FUD flying around about the CT it's obviously got some people worried.

 

[day_trippr]

So far the only people who seem to be worried are the ones with down payments that Tesla has told "Buy it now or lose your money"

 

[Bilsch]

So far the only people who seem to be worried are the ones with down payments that Tesla has told "Buy it now or lose your money"

There were a few who placed the order, paid the deposit and when the vehicle was ready did not to take delivery which would go against the original agreement. If you don’t take it you lose the deposit. I don’t understand why anyone would have a problem with that.

 

[Kharnynb]

At this point those people might have a case due to how many promises were broken on what the car would be capable of

 

[beren]

Tesla didn't lose those reservations, they were for the lower priced trim versions which haven't gone up for sale yet. There is just so much FUD flying around about the CT it's obviously got some people worried.

Yeah. Worried they are diving next to me. Thise FSD videos are scary. Those reservations were for a $40k truck that could do 500mi, stainless exoskeleton with amphibious capabilities. What they delivered is only that in looks. With a sub-meter precision body, not millimeter, and fragile cast aluminum frame and I’ve seen it get stuck in 2in of snow in a parking spot. Not sure where the FUD is. Maybe they keep it in the frunk?

 

[Bilsch]

Yeah. Worried they are diving next to me. Thise FSD videos are scary. Those reservations were for a $40k truck that could do 500mi, stainless exoskeleton with amphibious capabilities. What they delivered is only that in looks. With a sub-meter precision body, not millimeter, and fragile cast aluminum frame and I’ve seen it get stuck in 2in of snow in a parking spot. Not sure where the FUD is. Maybe they keep it in the frunk?

90% of the so called ‘news’ on the CT are hit pieces so it is difficult to know what the real truth is but in the meantime people are happy to jump to conclusions. I don’t own one or have any experience with the vehicle so i prefer to ignore the BS and take a wait and see approach. Similarly there was good deal of FUD about Tesla’s other vehicles of which I own two. Turns out 99.9% of that was lies as well so you can understand my reluctance to fall for the current line.

 

[Kent88]

I don't usually get caught up in vehicle aesthetics. I don't like how the CT looks, but there are other vehicles out there that I think look a bit strange. I don't get caught up in all that.

There are other things that kind of bug me about it. The range issue is really weird. They even came up with an extra battery that can be installed in the truck bed and it still isn't hitting that range.

But me getting worked up about how ugly it is isn't going to change things. It will continue to exist. Some people are going to buy it. Some of those people will enjoy driving it. Good for them. I'd rather look at a Sierra EV or an R1T. But it doesn't matter much, as I'm not looking for a vehicle right now and if I was most EV trucks available today are out of my price range.

 

[Bilsch]

The CT is a definite departure from the norm so as is true with all such things you are going to have some successes and some failures. I wouldn't buy one but applaud them for pushing the envelope. The 48v architecture and drive by wire are certainly interesting technology advances. The body construction maybe not so much but then it’s too early yet to draw any conclusions on any of it.

Personally if I were going to get a truck I think the Lightening would be my first choice simply for the vehicle to house back up capability. Like a really big whole house backup battery you could use occasionally to haul stuff.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

they were for the lower priced trim versions which haven't gone up for sale yet

Oh, the vaporware versions?

 

[NeoBrew]

The CT is a definite departure from the norm so as is true with all such things you are going to have some successes and some failures. I wouldn't buy one but applaud them for pushing the envelope. The 48v architecture and drive by wire are certainly interesting technology advances. The body construction maybe not so much but then it’s too early yet to draw any conclusions on any of it.

Personally if I were going to get a truck I think the Lightening would be my first choice simply for the vehicle to house back up capability. Like a really big whole house backup battery you could use occasionally to haul stuff.

I am not sure drive by wire could be considered an "advance". It boggles my mind that people constantly deal with software glitches all day on every device but are then jazzed about letting technology control life critical functions.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I am not sure drive by wire could be considered an "advance". It boggles my mind that people constantly deal with software glitches all day on every device but are then jazzed about letting technology control life critical functions.

Agreed... To a point.

We let technology control a LOT of life critical functions. If you've ever flown on an Airbus A320 or a Boeing 777, you've been on an airplane that is fly-by-wire. In my career, I used to deal with customers who were developing products that handled critical healthcare functions, such as medication infusion pumps (the things that regulated EXACTLY how much of an intravenous medicine you got in the hospital) and heart ablation machines. The sort of thing where a single software screwup could kill you.

That said, the FAA and the FDA are deeply involved in the regulation and safety validation processes for these types of applications. Properly regulated, drive-by-wire should be safe and secure. And that should mean that the computer systems used for critical functions like drive-by-wire should be separate from the ones driving your infotainment and other non-critical functions. Such that the level of critical functionality of drive by wire can't be impacted by a bug in, for example, an OTA update.

 

[sibelman]

Properly regulated, drive-by-wire should be safe and secure.

Hmmm. I kinda like that my steering wheel and brake pedal can operate even if everything electronic is off line.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Hmmm. I kinda like that my steering wheel and brake pedal can operate even if everything electronic is off line.

Remember, everything's a tradeoff...

Mechanical linkages add weight. They may require certain physical routing demands (such as a steering wheel->linkage->wheels) that force vehicle design to meet certain sub-optimal form factors. Depending on the system, there might be additional costs from the mechanical linkages. There may be more maintenance needs based upon those.

And some of those systems then require ancillary systems just to work. Heck, just think of power steering! Have you ever tried to drive an old car that is pre-power steering? Hope you have some muscles! So not only do you need a mechanical linkage to steer the vehicle, now you need an extra system to give mechanical advantage because the car is too heavy for all people to steer. With drive by wire you don't need power steering, because you're not trying to overpower a big, heavy, mechanical linkage.

In cars, we've already seen a major shift electronically where we've introduced more complexity of one type to save complexity in another: the introduction of the CAN bus. As cars become more electrically complex, it meant that the wiring needed in a car kept getting more complex to match it--which creates tons of problems with wiring harness size, weight of wiring, risk of all those wires/connections increasing the likelihood of something to fail, etc. With the CAN bus, you can put a ton of systems on a simple 2-wire bus/interface where they communicate via messages where the sender and recipient system are specified rather than requiring point-to-point connections between every system.

Infiniti has been doing steer-by-wire since 2013... Wikipedia says that brake-by-wire has been "widely commercialized".

This is not some new Tesla thing.

And remember--when we DO finally get to fully autonomous driving (i.e. L5), it's all going to be controlled by wire by the car's computer because your car won't have a steering wheel or a brake pedal anyway

 

[NeoBrew]

Agreed... To a point.

We let technology control a LOT of life critical functions. If you've ever flown on an Airbus A320 or a Boeing 777, you've been on an airplane that is fly-by-wire. In my career, I used to deal with customers who were developing products that handled critical healthcare functions, such as medication infusion pumps (the things that regulated EXACTLY how much of an intravenous medicine you got in the hospital) and heart ablation machines. The sort of thing where a single software screwup could kill you.

That said, the FAA and the FDA are deeply involved in the regulation and safety validation processes for these types of applications. Properly regulated, drive-by-wire should be safe and secure. And that should mean that the computer systems used for critical functions like drive-by-wire should be separate from the ones driving your infotainment and other non-critical functions. Such that the level of critical functionality of drive by wire can't be impacted by a bug in, for example, an OTA update.

Perfect example. Thanks for T-ing that one up for me! This kind of thinking is what lead to the death of 346 people on two Boeing 737 MAX airplanes. There was a fly by wire system that was created to overcome design faults in the airplane due to the installation of engines that created unsafe flight characteristics. A whole series of bad decisions caused those choices to be made and led Boeing to want to cover up the fact they did it as well as try to suppress it after the first crash. They only had to admit to it after the second one forced their hand. The FAA oversight was highly compromised and Boeing's conflicting needs led them down a bad path.

There were a lot of factors here, but company goals were not focused on ultimate safety, engineers did a bad job of designing the plane itself, software/hardware engineers did a bad job designing the system to mitigate the bad airframe design, market forces and regulation led to less than adequate training, and PR led to it's cover up for as long as possible.

So...if you think airplanes are regulated more than cars, what is to stop tragic mistakes from happening to the design of electronics in cars?

My point is, don't place faith in the idea that "the system" will watch out for us.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Perfect example. Thanks for T-ing that one up for me! This kind of thinking is what lead to the death of 346 people on two Boeing 737 MAX airplanes. There was a fly by wire system that was created to overcome design faults in the airplane due to the installation of engines that created unsafe flight characteristics. A whole series of bad decisions caused those choices to be made and led Boeing to want to cover up the fact they did it as well as try to suppress it after the first crash. They only had to admit to it after the second one forced their hand. The FAA oversight was highly compromised and Boeing's conflicting needs led them down a bad path.

There were a lot of factors here, but company goals were not focused on ultimate safety, engineers did a bad job of designing the plane itself, software/hardware engineers did a bad job designing the system to mitigate the bad airframe design, market forces and regulation led to less than adequate training, and PR led to it's cover up for as long as possible.

So...if you think airplanes are regulated more than cars, what is to stop tragic mistakes from happening to the design of electronics in cars?

My point is, don't place faith in the idea that "the system" will watch out for us.

As an engineer, I'm not going to get into armchair Monday morning quarterbacking of what happened with Boeing and those 737 MAX aircraft. Most laymen outside the actual company probably have absolutely ZERO idea what is going on, and internet speculation about same is likely about as wrong as it can possibly be. My evidence for that is as someone in a very highly technical field, basically everything I see on the internet about my company or our products is speculative and wrong. I am a layman when it comes to aviation, I'm outside of Boeing, so I'm not in any position to actually speak authoritatively about what screwup(s) led to these tragedies.

That said, I reject your premise. "The system" cannot EVER achieve 100% perfect safety in everything every company ever does.

Fly by wire is standard in other Airbus and Boeing airframes that don't suffer the same issues. Whatever was screwed up in the 737 MAX wasn't the fault of fly by wire, it was the fault of something else.

 

[day_trippr]

The whole Max thing really isn't hard to understand, at least to this ex-engineer...

 

[sibelman]

With drive by wire you don't need power steering

With drive by wire, it's all power steering.

Infiniti has been doing steer-by-wire since 2013... Wikipedia says that brake-by-wire has been "widely commercialized".

This is not some new Tesla thing.

That's at least dimly reassuring

fully autonomous driving

Yes, it seems one must have drive by wire before one can have fully autonomous driving. I'm okay with neither. But I admit computers may already outperform humans at driving.

Just sayin' I'm not ready, and I'm not sure they (car makers) are either. This is more emotional than logical, but there it is.

Seems to me Laurel and Hardy did a thing with a steering wheel that fell off in the driver's hands. Then there's pressing on the brake pedal but, alas, no braking. Scary, no?

 

[Kharnynb]

until tesla lets go of their insane choice to use only cameras for their autonomous driving system, it's about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.

the cybertruck is just showing more and more faults every week, now it turns out you can't drive it in snowy weather since the shelf in front of the headlights will fill up with snow and block any light and the wheels are literally falling to pieces since they were never designed for the actual weight of the vehicle.

 

[Airborneguy]

The way people continue to describe FSD is wild considering how many times my car has driven for me with little to no intervention. Is it perfect? No. Are most random internet comments against it wildly exaggerated? Yup.

 

[Kent88]

Until I can get in the driver's seat after having a few beers, type in my destination, and fall asleep while the car drives me there without any input on my part, I don't plan to spend money on autonomous driving tech that isn't just a small safety feature or two.

 

[Kharnynb]

my issue with it isn't that it works quite often, my issue is that it will fail randomly and dangerously.

While the disclaimers all say you should be ready to intervene, we all know how stupid people can get

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

The way people continue to describe FSD is wild considering how many times my car has driven for me with little to no intervention. Is it perfect? No. Are most random internet comments against it wildly exaggerated? Yup.

My issue is that it isn't FSD until/unless it satisfies the following:

Until I can get in the driver's seat after having a few beers, type in my destination, and fall asleep while the car drives me there without any input on my part, I don't plan to spend money on autonomous driving tech that isn't just a small safety feature or two.

I'd add one additional point--it also removes any legal liability from me being drunk and asleep in the driver's seat.

Until then, it's not FSD, it's just ADAS. It might be a really *good* ADAS, but ADAS doesn't equal autonomous.

 

[Airborneguy]

Until I can get in the driver's seat after having a few beers, type in my destination, and fall asleep while the car drives me there without any input on my part, I don't plan to spend money on autonomous driving tech that isn't just a small safety feature or two.

Perfectly reasonable. But pretending it doesn’t work is just wild.

 

[AzOr]

Until I can get in the driver's seat after having a few beers, type in my destination, and fall asleep while the car drives me there without any input on my part, I don't plan to spend money on autonomous driving tech that isn't just a small safety feature or

You can almost do that in Phx. I’m here for family stuff and I must have passed at least twenty waymo cars near the airport.
Last time I was here I saw a few but not this many.

 

[tracer bullet]

Last time I was here I saw a few but not this many.

Except, if I was in a driverless Jag, I'd want to jump in the front seat and take it over and see how it handles.

 

[Kharnynb]

yea, but waymo uses a combination of sensors including radar and lidar and cameras and combines with very high level processing ai to make it work rather well.
meanwhile tesla decided that a camera that can't see the difference between the sky and the side of a white lorry trailer is fine.

 

[Bilsch]

my issue with it isn't that it works quite often, my issue is that it will fail randomly and dangerously.

People also fail randomly and dangerously it's just a matter of which system fails less often.

 

[beren]

The way people continue to describe FSD is wild considering how many times my car has driven for me with little to no intervention. Is it perfect? No. Are most random internet comments against it wildly exaggerated? Yup.

The first 90% is easy. The next 5% is hard. The last 5% is near impossible. Tesla is somewhere between 90-95%. Considering how many bad choices it makes, like turning onto train tracks, I’m not sure that it’s only a sensor issue.

Like I often say, seatbelts aren’t needed for far over 99% of drives. Doesn’t mean it’s safe to drive without them. Real self driving would have liability for accidents on the mfg. When Tesla takes that risk, then you know they stand by what they are selling.

Also, aircraft have about 100x the inspection and upkeep cars get to stay legal, with multiple redundant systems controls. Read up on the Toyota expert witness testimony to see how bad things can be with car code if you don’t get qualified outside audits. Some commentary: