Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?

[Jonakr]

So you have to let the state inspect your vehicle annually?

We have to be inspected almost every year. I pay for two at a time, though, whenever possible.

 

[doug293cz]

Renting for a road trip seems like more trouble than it’s worth. Fast charging and highway driving means it’s not cheaper than gas, and you have the stress of trying to find chargers but it’s not your car that you know well.

Also hate to burst the bubble, but Musk is far from a genius. He doesn’t know how to code, Tesla and SpaceX have said they had handlers for him to keep him distracted and away from the engineers that do the work. His destroying of twitter’s value, insane hours “playing” Diablo 4, and 200 tweets a day shows he doesn’t do anything else but troll the net. Tesla would be so much better without him honestly. His cyberdumpster is on its 6th recall in a year.

My wife's battery SUV averages about 3.7 mi/kWH. With public fast chargers @ $0.50/kWH, that works out to ~$0.135/mi. With gas @$3.00/gal and 25 mi/gal the cost/mile is $0.12/mi. If gas is $4.00/gal then it's $0.16/mi. If you only get 20 mi/gal then it works out to $0.15/mi and $0.20/mi.

Our home marginal electric rate is ~$0.15/kWH, so my wife is usually driving for ~$0.04/mi.

Brew on

 

[Agent]

I'm currently taking advantage of the fact that most EVs >10 years old are basically disposable to get some hands-on experience.

I picked up a 2012 Chevy Volt as a mechanic special, and am fiddling around trying to make it function properly again. Software is not understanding about any imperfections.

 

[doug293cz]

Interesting report on cold weather testing of BEVs:

Norwegian Auto Federation Warns: Tesla’s Performance Drops in Cold Weather Compared to Chinese EVs​

"Twice a year, Norway’s El Prix tests electric vehicles under harsh winter conditions. The latest study, conducted with temperatures ranging from -2°C to -10°C, compared the real-world range of 23 different EV models against the range advertised under WLTP (Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicle Test Procedure) standards. The goal? To see how well EVs perform when snow and freezing temperatures put their batteries to the ultimate test.​

​

The Tesla Model 3 Long Range, known for its impressive reputation, fell short in this trial. Despite its 75 kWh battery, the Model 3 managed only 441 kilometers, a significant drop from its WLTP-rated 629 kilometers. This 30% discrepancy placed it among the weakest performers, trailing just behind the Volkswagen ID.7, which showed a 31.9% difference.​

​

In stark contrast, Chinese EVs proved to be winter champions. The HiPhi Z, a premium sedan less known outside China, achieved an outstanding 522 kilometers on a 120 kWh battery. The difference between its real-world range and WLTP rating was just 5.9%, making it one of the most reliable performers in the test."​

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

Tesla M3 LR: 5.88 km/kw vs HiPhi Z: 4.35 km/kw

 

[doug293cz]

Tesla M3 LR: 5.88 km/kw vs HiPhi Z: 4.35 km/kw

Comparison was about relative range degradation with very low temperatures vs. "normal" temperature range. Not absolute economy of one vs. the other. Taken at face value, the Chinese vehicle did not lose as much of its normal range performance as did the Tesla at low temps. Would be interesting to know what about the technologies used account for the difference.

Brew on

 

[Broothru]

Comparison was about relative range degradation with very low temperatures vs. "normal" temperature range. Not absolute economy of one vs. the other. Taken at face value, the Chinese vehicle did not lose as much of its normal range performance as did the Tesla at low temps. Would be interesting to know what about the technologies used account for the difference.

Brew on

Heated battery?

 

[day_trippr]

I get all that, but the Tesla seems to be waay more efficient in the cold just the same which makes me wonder what weight the article's point actually carries IRL...

 

[Kharnynb]

I get all that, but the Tesla seems to be waay more efficient in the cold just the same which makes me wonder what weight the article's point actually carries IRL...

check the weight...that other car is almost twice as heavy, so quite impressive on it's economy at cold temperature

Tesla has gotten a lot worse with their newer cars, not to mention the abomination that is the cybertruck failblazer

 

[Broothru]

check the weight...that other car is almost twice as heavy, so quite impressive on it's economy at cold temperature

Tesla has gotten a lot worse with their newer cars, not to mention the abomination that is the cybertruck failblazer

Inceltruk?

 

[Kent88]

Don't that man have like 15 kids?

 

[NeoBrew]

I get all that, but the Tesla seems to be waay more efficient in the cold just the same which makes me wonder what weight the article's point actually carries IRL...

It seems odd that in the face of, what appears to be, an empirical study you are more inclined to share that it "seems" to be waay more efficient.

Maybe there is a different between moderately cold environments and very cold environments? I am not sure that heating degree days is the best measure for this. (See link below) It is a baseline used in heating capacity calculations, but you can see that someplace like Minnesota is approximately 55% consistently more cold than Massachusetts. As we all transition to electric it may take different solutions based on regional climates. While some of this is part of the car market now. (I am not sure what people in Florida think when they see seat heaters, but I wouldn't buy a car without them anymore!) I don't think we have seen car companies providing different power plants for cars based on regional climates.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/us-degree-days-d_1569.html

 

[Broothru]

Don't that man have like 15 kids?

Allegedly. Though I don’t recall any women actually claiming to have had ‘relations’ with Elmo.

 

[DonT]

Don't that man have like 15 kids?

11... but, still... allegedly he's in some weird "populate the world" cult

 

[Kent88]

11... but, still... allegedly he's in some weird "populate the world" cult

I'll omit my rant about how most of us, myself included, are probably descended from jerks with enough money to have a dozen kids, maybe even some mistresses. It would be off topic.

 

[DonT]

I'll omit my rant about how most of us, myself included, are probably descended from jerks with enough money to have a dozen kids, maybe even some mistresses. It would be off topic.

Yep... hijack over...

Please continue....

 

[sibelman]

maybe even some mistresses

So, electric cars are now "chick magnets?"

 

[day_trippr]

It seems odd that in the face of, what appears to be, an empirical study you are more inclined to share that it "seems" to be waay more efficient.

Tesla M3 LR: 5.88 km/kw vs HiPhi Z: 4.35 km/kw

With respect to getting from Point A to Point B the most efficiently, what part of that aren't you getting?
I don't care if the HiPhi Z is dragging the Titanic in it's wake - that's on their design choices, and I'm not referring to "pound feet" as a performance metric in this case...

Cheers! ("Ah, well, the pig is three times the weight, so it's more efficient!" )

 

[doug293cz]

Tesla M3 LR: 5.88 km/kw vs HiPhi Z: 4.35 km/kw

With respect to getting from Point A to Point B the most efficiently, what part of that aren't you getting?
I don't care if the HiPhi Z is dragging the Titanic in it's wake - that's on their design choices, and I'm not referring to "pound feet" as a performance metric in this case...

Cheers! ("Ah, well, the pig is three times the weight, so it's more efficient!" )

It wasn't an efficiency discussion. It was about what percentage of their "normal" temperature range is lost at "cold" temperatures. If the Chinese vehicle maintains a greater percentage of its range than a Tesla, then apparently the Chinese car has some more advanced technology than the Tesla. Eventually whatever this "cold resistant" technology is will spread across the rest of the industry. It's interesting mostly because of the anti-EV folks' talking point about how badly EVs perform when it gets cold.

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

holy cow, I literally acknowledged the temperature thing, but questioned if that actually mattered considering the Tesla is still more efficient...

 

[sibelman]

questioned if that actually mattered

Of course it actually matters. If your EV or mine maintained its summer battery performance year round, that would be splendid. I'm hoping my next EV will benefit from this or, preferably, even better battery price/performance improvement. This doesn't mean either of us ought to wish for that particular Chinese car, of course.

 

[mac_1103]

questioned if that actually mattered

I think it matters when you're trying to get from point A to point B in cold weather. Depending of course on how cold it is, how far apart point A and point B are, and what the nominal range of the vehicle is in warm weather. I kinda wish this kind of data was more readily available for more EVs.

 

[Broothru]

How about ability (or inability) and rapidity to obtain a complete state of charge (SOC) in cold weather? I know the LiPO4 batteries in my motorhome are averse to both charging and discharging whenever ambient temperature falls much below 40F without turning on the integral battery heaters. It takes kW to load up those stored kWs, and that needs factoring into the final equation.

 

[beren]

Comparison was about relative range degradation with very low temperatures vs. "normal" temperature range. Not absolute economy of one vs. the other. Taken at face value, the Chinese vehicle did not lose as much of its normal range performance as did the Tesla at low temps. Would be interesting to know what about the technologies used account for the difference.

Brew on

Reading comprehension is hard nowadays.

 

[beren]

holy cow, I literally acknowledged the temperature thing, but questioned if that actually mattered considering the Tesla is still more efficient...

It’s simple. If your car normally gets 300mi and in the cold it drops to 200 mi, vs if you car gets 250mi and in the cold it drops to 230mi it’s way easier to plan distances in the 2nd case. Less variability is a good thing and also impressive.

 

[Pkrd]

Hang on. They tested the Tesla in cold weather and compared that value to the claimed normal range. Which they tend to tell the biggest porkies about of any EV manufacturer.

the Model 3 managed only 441 kilometers, a significant drop from its WLTP-rated 629 kilometers

 

[sibelman]

fwiw, my Chevy Bolt definitely loses range bigtime in winter: around 25%, maybe more. And Portland winters aren't severe. Of course, the degradation may mostly "bottom out" at some temperature. Intuitively more likely, it keeps worsening as temps drop. But there's super-heavy EV adoption in Norway

 

[doug293cz]

fwiw, my Chevy Bolt definitely loses range bigtime in winter: around 25%, maybe more. And Portland winters aren't severe. Of course, the degradation may mostly "bottom out" at some temperature. Intuitively more likely, it keeps worsening as temps drop. But there's super-heavy EV adoption in Norway

According to the link, 93.6% of new car purchases in Norway for Nov. 2024 were EVs!

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

Apparently the cost to charge an EV is way lower than refueling a gasser in Norway.
Gas averages $6.27/gallon there today....

 

[Kent88]

I'd be a smart aleck and ask why there's such a difference, but I think the answer would belong in Debate.

 

[mac_1103]

I don't think it would be smart-alecky to say that there are many factors that contribute to the big difference. I don't think saying so would belong in the debate forum either.

 

[sibelman]

So, is it inappropriate to inquire (outside the debate forum) what folks think about EV purchase incentives? Battery plant construction incentives? These seem integral - or closely related - to this "poll"? If so, then just delete this paragraph.

Alternatively: have EV incentives shaped your purchase decisions?

 

[doug293cz]

So, is it inappropriate to inquire (outside the debate forum) what folks think about EV purchase incentives? Battery plant construction incentives? These seem integral - or closely related - to this "poll"? If so, then just delete this paragraph.

Alternatively: have EV incentives shaped your purchase decisions?

Yes, to the first question.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[mac_1103]

So, is it inappropriate to inquire (outside the debate forum) what folks think about EV purchase incentives? Battery plant construction incentives? These seem integral - or closely related - to this "poll"?

Yes, to the first question.

But not to the second?

ISTM that it should be possible to discuss the impact of incentives on a purchasing decision without discussing the politics of those incentives, but that would probably last about 30 seconds so I get it.

edit - Oh, you were treating the first paragraph as a single question; nevermind then.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Alternatively: have EV incentives shaped your purchase decisions?

Agree with Doug that the first question is for the debate forum.

As for the second question, I'll say that if EV incentives are still around when I look at my next vehicle purchase, they would certainly factor in to my decision. I've said previously that I'm not committed to an ICEV or a BEV next time 'round. At the time of my last purchase (2017), the BEV infrastructure just wasn't mature enough for me, and there were no BEVs on the market that met my needs and price targets even remotely competitive with ICEV, so I went ICEV. By the next time I purchase (no sooner than late 2026, barring an accident/etc forcing my hand), my needs will have changed as kids start heading off to college, the competitiveness of BEVs has certainly changed, and the infrastructure will be mature enough to consider BEV.

It will depend on a lot of variables, some of which might be preferential (i.e. the acceleration of a BEV, the ability to charge at home and never worry about "filling up"). But with a large expensive purchase like this, some variables are just straight up economics. That's purchase price, operating costs, resale value projections, used market (I generally buy used vehicles), and of course incentives. If it's close economically with or without incentives, I might lean BEV anyway. If it's not quite close enough without incentives but EV incentives tip the economic scale considerably to BEV, to ignore that in my decision would be silly.

 

[mac_1103]

I'll say that if EV incentives are still around when I look at my next vehicle purchase, they would certainly factor in to my decision.

I'm not really sure how much impact the tax credits are actually having on final cost of the vehicles to consumers. Many EVs that don't qualify seem to be getting discounted by quite a bit more than EVs that do qualify, at least in my neck of the woods. About $7500 more as it happens.

 

[Kent88]

I guess I'll say that if you can stick to just talking about the incentives in that they exist, we'll probably leave you alone. If we start a back and forth on whether they should exist, or how they should be tweaked, or going on at length about how they're too much / not enough, that will probably cause problems. That sort of discussion would be appropriate for Debate, not here.

Kent88
HBT Moderator

 

[Broothru]

Agree with Doug that the first question is for the debate forum.

As for the second question, I'll say that if EV incentives are still around when I look at my next vehicle purchase, they would certainly factor in to my decision. I've said previously that I'm not committed to an ICEV or a BEV next time 'round. At the time of my last purchase (2017), the BEV infrastructure just wasn't mature enough for me, and there were no BEVs on the market that met my needs and price targets even remotely competitive with ICEV, so I went ICEV. By the next time I purchase (no sooner than late 2026, barring an accident/etc forcing my hand), my needs will have changed as kids start heading off to college, the competitiveness of BEVs has certainly changed, and the infrastructure will be mature enough to consider BEV.

It will depend on a lot of variables, some of which might be preferential (i.e. the acceleration of a BEV, the ability to charge at home and never worry about "filling up"). But with a large expensive purchase like this, some variables are just straight up economics. That's purchase price, operating costs, resale value projections, used market (I generally buy used vehicles), and of course incentives. If it's close economically with or without incentives, I might lean BEV anyway. If it's not quite close enough without incentives but EV incentives tip the economic scale considerably to BEV, to ignore that in my decision would be silly.

My son-in-law just purchased a Lucid. What a sweet ride. Incentives played no role in the decision-making process, I guarantee!

 

[Bilsch]

Renting for a road trip seems like more trouble than it’s worth. Fast charging and highway driving means it’s not cheaper than gas, and you have the stress of trying to find chargers but it’s not your car that you know well.

Also hate to burst the bubble, but Musk is far from a genius. He doesn’t know how to code, Tesla and SpaceX have said they had handlers for him to keep him distracted and away from the engineers that do the work. His destroying of twitter’s value, insane hours “playing” Diablo 4, and 200 tweets a day shows he doesn’t do anything else but troll the net. Tesla would be so much better without him honestly. His cyberdumpster is on its 6th recall in a year.

Do you happen to own an EV by chance? Because I do and roadtrips with fast charging are still less than half the cost of gas, typically about a 1/3rd. As for the Elon thing well I’m sure he does his share of goofing off but his companies keep plowing along making money. Also tell me you don’t understand how over the air software update recalls work without telling me.

 

[Kent88]

As far as the Elon thing, EVs shouldn't need a single figurehead/spokesperson that we immediately think of when we think of EVs.