Plate Chiller vs Counter Flow Chiller

[htims05]

So my chilling time is currently like a 2-4 hours with my current setup - I just started brewing. I want to drop that down to minutes.

I found this Duda Diesel chart - https://www.dudadiesel.com/files/beerwortchart.pdf and the reviews of their chillers are fantastic...minus the fact that PC's can clog without good filtering...so I read.

I also read that CFC's are nearly the same efficiency (anyone have a chart like the DD one I linked) so I'd be inclined to go that route for the sake of less clogging issues.

I like the small form factor of the plates and the cost of the duda's so are there any CFC's out there for the same cost and same efficiency?

 

[gnef]

Do you know what your ground water temperature is throughout the year?

Depending on that, you may need to also get a submersible pump so that you can circulate ice water through your chiller, whatever you decide to get.

I personally built a two stage counterflow chiller to use groundwater for the first stage, and then ice water recirculated for the second stage. I can chill 5 gallons in about 7 minutes to 62F in one pass into the fermenter. You could do this with two standard counterflow chillers, or build a custom one like I did that has both stages together.

If you do get a sumbersible pump for ice water, you can also get the immersion chiller Hydra, do groundwater first, and then do ice water recirculated through. I have seen many good reports on this particular immersion chiller.

 

[jjjjfrench]

To your specific question, in my experience no. I had two different counter-flows before I got my Duda-Diesel PC. The PC outperformed both by a long-shot. However, I have brewing friends who swear by counter-flows, so clearly there are some that work well--I just was never lucky enough to have one....

I also acknowledge that I utilize a hopstopper2.0 in my kettle and it does an amazing job of filtering out hop material and coagulated proteins. I've passed ~1500 gallons of wort through my PC and nothing even close to a clog. Cleaning is comprised of a hot water rinse both directions immediately after each use and PBW followed by acid #5 every ~150 gallons of wort (15 batches for me).

As gnef pointed out, if your ground water is warm you may need to pre-chill...there is just no beating physics. But whether you need to pre-chill or not, the efficiency you get from a PC compared to a counter-flow should not change.

-J

 

[day_trippr]

I'd like to know the OP's current chilling methods - and the temperature of the available cooling water - to understand why the current setup doesn't work, before prescribing alternatives.

Even the cheap 3/8" 25' IC I cobbled together as my first wort chiller would bring 5 gallons to pitching temperature in under 20 minutes. That still required stirring the wort, otherwise it could take three times as long...

Cheers!

 

[gnef]

I forgot to put a link of the build of my two stage counterflow chiller:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/two-stage-counterflow-chiller.568689/

 

[teesherv]

If possible, borrow to try out what works for you. I don’t like Duda plate chillers but my neighbor loves his. I’ve loaned my Hydra chiller a number of times and some brewers don’t like it but for me it’s the best thing I’ve used.
One last thought, before I bought a chiller, I used ice bath in the tub. Took about 45mins to an hour.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I have a 30 plate 12" long Dudadiesel PC that with the advent of huge post boil WP hops has seen way less use than my 50' 1/2" SS IC. I only use it now if there are no post-boil additions...

Cheers!

 

[augiedoggy]

I chill in one pass through my duda straight from BK to conical and usually chill 11 gallons in under 10 mins. I also use 2 hop screen baskets which work well. Ive never had any indication of any solids getting in in the chiller. I use a sabco pro plate chiller at the brewpub and it takes much longer to chill 3bbls.. That one I can take apart and clean out manually.

 

[ChaosB]

Blichmann plate chiller. I usually recirculate wort through it last 10 mins of boil to sanitize and continue a few minutes once I turn the chill water on but after a few minutes, temps are always at pitching temp, I never have to wait other than for oxygenation and cleanup that distracts me.

 

[augiedoggy]

Blichmann plate chiller. I usually recirculate wort through it last 10 mins of boil to sanitize and continue a few minutes once I turn the chill water on but after a few minutes, temps are always at pitching temp, I never have to wait other than for oxygenation and cleanup that distracts me.

This is similar to how we use it at the brewpub. I will say when I take the sabco apart, There is a heavy buildup on the plates even though I backflush about 30 gallons of water through as im filling the kettle for CIP and also recirc heated pbw through it...

I can only imagine how nasty the inside of most homebrewing chillers are including my own that cant be opened up. I have never used a CFC but think they would be a great option for those that like hoppy beers.

 

[mongoose33]

I've never used a plate chiller but the potential clogging issues were enough to point me in another direction.

I now use a Stainless Steel counterflow chiller (which isn't quite as efficient as a copper one would be), but I miss the days of using my Jaded Hydra immersion chiller. In the spring, when the water temp fell into the 50s, I could chill a 5-gallon batch from boiling to 70 degrees in 4 minutes. That's not a misprint. A minute or so longer in the fall after the water warmed during the summer.

I'm using a CF chiller because I'm doing LODO techniques and I wanted to get copper out of the system entirely. I also have a heating element in my kettle and the immersion chiller would need to rest on that, unless I built some stilts for the Hydra.

But man, I sure miss using that Hydra.

 

[htims05]

I'd like to know the OP's current chilling methods - and the temperature of the available cooling water - to understand why the current setup doesn't work, before prescribing alternatives.

Even the cheap 3/8" 25' IC I cobbled together as my first wort chiller would bring 5 gallons to pitching temperature in under 20 minutes. That still required stirring the wort, otherwise it could take three times as long...

Cheers!

Sorry I’ve not been getting the notifications on this thread.

I’m between the hydra and a plate chiller. PC because of its small footprint and quick/easy to use. Hydra because it doesn’t clog.

That said I’m in the south east...my water temp right now is about 55-60f. I don’t know what summer time is, my guess is about 75f.

 

[Robert65]

Go with the immersion chiller and the two stage method mentioned earlier. Run tap water (anytime of year) and in a few minutes you'll be below 100°F (even in summer your tap water will be significantly below that.) Then use a utility pump to recirculate ice water, and the rest of the way will go just as quickly. Do stir the wort gently on occasion during both stages or it will slow down, as an isothermal barrier layer will set up around the coil. Got to keep it moving to get good heat exchange. This setup gives nice, fast chill times, and absolutely no question of clogging or sanitation issues.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

A Hydra will bring your wort to within a couple of degrees of ground water temperature in <15 minutes, won't clog, and is easy to clean. It is one of those things I wish I had bought much earlier. It's also built like a tank.

 

[brewbama]

Go with the immersion chiller and the two stage method mentioned earlier. Run tap water (anytime of year) and in a few minutes you'll be below 100°F (even in summer your tap water will be significantly below that.) Then use a utility pump to recirculate ice water, and the rest of the way will go just as quickly. Do stir the wort gently on occasion during both stages or it will slow down, as an isothermal barrier layer will set up around the coil. Got to keep it moving to get good heat exchange. This setup gives nice, fast chill times, and absolutely no question of clogging or sanitation issues.

Or just put hot boiling wort in a keg and put it in a keezer for a week. [emoji43]

(Sorry. Couldn’t resist. I DO NOT recommend this)

Actually, I do exactly what Robert describes. It is very quick.

 

[htims05]

Go with the immersion chiller and the two stage method mentioned earlier. Run tap water (anytime of year) and in a few minutes you'll be below 100°F (even in summer your tap water will be significantly below that.) Then use a utility pump to recirculate ice water, and the rest of the way will go just as quickly. Do stir the wort gently on occasion during both stages or it will slow down, as an isothermal barrier layer will set up around the coil. Got to keep it moving to get good heat exchange. This setup gives nice, fast chill times, and absolutely no question of clogging or sanitation issues.

So maybe I’ll do the hydra and hook my pump up and create a whirlpool?

 

[kh54s10]

I have built an IC that has two 20' sections of copper tubing. I can put both in the pot when the ground water is cool or put one in a bucket of ice water. As said you have to keep the liquid moving or it just heats around the coil. I recently went electric and recirculate. I had that running while cooling and it was much faster than when stirring.

 

[cubalz]

My suggestion is to buy a Jaded Hydra, works way faster than either the CFC or plate and none of the downsides. I have owned all three at one point of my life and there really is no comparison to the Jaded.

 

[htims05]

Anyone heard of CUSS Brewing. Looks like they have something like the hydra too. Just saw an advertisement for them recently.


https://cussbrewing.com/collections/frontpage/products/the-tricoil-1-2

I wonder if there is any difference between the two IC’s

 

[Robert65]

Anyone heard of CUSS Brewing. Looks like they have something like the hydra too. Just saw an advertisement for them recently.


https://cussbrewing.com/collections/frontpage/products/the-tricoil-1-2

I wonder if there is any difference between the two IC’s

As I understand, it CuSS was started by one of the design people originally with JaDeD (both companies have cApiTaLizAtion issues.) So naturally the products are mighty similar if not identical. And note that both companies have stainless steel versions of the Hydra type chiller coming out soon, if anyone has a preference for that.

 

[balrog]

Go with the immersion chiller and the two stage method mentioned earlier. Run tap water (anytime of year) and in a few minutes you'll be below 100°F (even in summer your tap water will be significantly below that.) Then use a utility pump to recirculate ice water, and the rest of the way will go just as quickly. Do stir the wort gently on occasion during both stages or it will slow down, as an isothermal barrier layer will set up around the coil. Got to keep it moving to get good heat exchange. This setup gives nice, fast chill times, and absolutely no question of clogging or sanitation issues.

This. Groundwater is so much cooler than boiling wort, that if you agitate the Immersion Chiller in the wort with groundwater flowing through you will be quickly removing heat. Outflow captured for cleaning. By the time you fill 2 - 5gal buckets you should be close to 100F. THen sw to pump recirc in cooler with ice and within 10m you will be mid 60F. CONSTANTLY MOVE WORT will be a key factor in this.

This is what I do. When I do my WY1007 batches at 60F I am chilling 5g to 60F in 12-15m in this manner. Simple 3/8, 25' copper IC.

 

[mongoose33]

So maybe I’ll do the hydra and hook my pump up and create a whirlpool?

I used to just use a spoon to stir back and forth. The Hydra--well, any IC--works better if the wort is constantly moving past it. Otherwise the area around the chiller cools and reduces the transfer of heat to the water going through the chiller.

I'd also stir in a circular motion toward the end to encourage a trub cone.

 

[htims05]

As I understand, it CuSS was started by one of the design people originally with JaDeD (both companies have cApiTaLizAtion issues.) So naturally the products are mighty similar if not identical. And note that both companies have stainless steel versions of the Hydra type chiller coming out soon, if anyone has a preference for that.

Is there a benefit to stainless vs copper for a IC?

 

[brewbama]

The benefit is a consideration for Low O2 brewing. You loose some efficiency with Stainless but Copper is taboo.

 

[Robert65]

Is there a benefit to stainless vs copper for a IC?

Copper is more efficient at heat transfer. Some, especially low oxygen brewers, don't want copper in their system for fear of Fenton type reactions downstream, but BrewTan B will chelate it. Stainless could be easier to keep clean and sanitize, but all you should do with copper is rinse with hot water immediately after use, and let it keep building a dull, passive oxide layer, which should address all issues. It's really a matter of preference.

 

[Mer-man]

I've got the Stout CFC and I recirc it into the kettle; the cooling water is run from an IBC (1000L) and back into the top. In the cool months, I am 20 minutes to pitch temp.

 

[Robert65]

I've got the Stout CFC and I recirc it into the kettle; the cooling water is run from an IBC (1000L) and back into the top. In the cool months, I am 20 minutes to pitch temp.

Similar time to (lager) pitching temperature with the above detailed two stage IC routine. Janky, homemade IC. Sounds like you paid too much. [emoji6]

 

[Mer-man]

214 dollars? No, not really.

 

[htims05]

So now I’m wondering which IC to get. I mostly just do 5 gallon batches (biab) in a 10 gallon (soon to be 15 or 20 gallon) kettle. I don’t want an IC where half of it is sticking out above the liquid line.

 

[Robert65]

So now I’m wondering which IC to get. I mostly just do 5 gallon batches (biab) in a 10 gallon (soon to be 15 or 20 gallon) kettle. I don’t want an IC where half of it is sticking out above the liquid line.

Figure out the height you need. They should all list dimensions; if not, they just lost a potential customer. There are some ICs especially made to an even lower profile to accommodate those who sometimes do smaller batches. I believe JaDeD and CuSS both have such an item, no doubt others too.

 

[htims05]

Figure out the height you need. They should all list dimensions; if not, they just lost a potential customer. There are some ICs especially made to an even lower profile to accommodate those who sometimes do smaller batches. I believe JaDeD and CuSS both have such an item, no doubt others too.

I emailed CuSS after I did some math based on my current kettle. I’m wondering how much slower it would be to cool if 3-4 inches of the coil were exposed. I saw the low profile ones but if I get a large kettle it would be nice ok ...err maybe not since I do biab my kettle size is mostly a function of how much grain I need...once the grain is out I’m most likely not going to be over 6 gallons to cool...unless I decide to put 10gal in 2 kegs but that seems unlikely to me since I only serve 2 taps.

Maybe the low profile one is the one to go with regardless of kettle.