Plan for my first ever LODO Techniques

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Tommydee

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I guess I'll go first with a plan for my first ever LODO on my standard, KISS 10 gallon, pump free, BIAB setup, asking for pointers/opinions from those that are deeper in this. Sadly stuck with a 1/2" x 25 ft copper IC for now. I'm omitting some steps, since I'm trying to avoid buying new equipment, or at least minimize it. I'm looking for go/no-go from those who have progressed. I make good lagers, and keep my cold side tight already...but was in Germany recently, and would love to get closer to their Helles...Oh, as far as my LODO politics, I'm not yet a full believer, but have a hunch there is something real about this, enough so that I'm willing to tweak my process and try it.

2 Use yeast/dextrose on strike water.
3. Treat with 30 ppm Potassium metabisulfate (or sodium mbs)
3. Mill grains at LHBS right into wilserbag in bucket. dough in within 60 minutes of grind. They do a nice fine grind....(too fine for LODO?) should I "bubble" Co2 through grains before dough in?)
4. Underlet doughin by using my bayou steaminsert and Wilser-pulley to very slowly lower grain bag into water
5. Aluminum foil mashcap, target 5.4 ph, 152 F.
6. GENTLE stir, temp check at 20 minutes. Heat only if mash below 149. (My insulation good, so doubtful)
7. Use pulley to pull basket with bottom of basket right at surface to minimize aeration while bag drips. (Skip my normal 168 10 minute rest). Heat to get vigorous boil, then reduce heat to more of simmer. (Partially cover with lid?)
8. 60 minute boil with brewtan B.
9. Chill with copper IC to 75, it's a beast, and usually takes 8 minutes with gentle whirlpool....sorry, but don't want to scrap my IC right now.
10. Gently transfer 4.5 gallons to purged pinlock corny for primary fermentation.
11.Crash corny in freezer to 50F, pitch decanted yeast starter. (Or maybe pitch at 75 prior to crash to further reduce O2 exposure?)
12. 20 second hit with pure O2 bubble wand
13. Days 1-3- blowoff tube ambient. 50 F
14. Days 4-6 spunding at 12 psi? 55 F?
15. Ramp chamber temp to 65 F, 7 days
16. Check gravity at day 15, D rest at 70 F 3 days
17. Closed CO2 transfer to purged serving keg at 12 psi
18. Store at 32 F for 1-2 weeks.
19. To kegerator.

This will be first time fermenting in Corny with a spunding valve, but I have this stuff already. I'm struggling to find a thread Ive read previously on spunding , so I may have some screw ups in my fermentation plan. Also, I really like the lack of mess of NOT having a mill, but if I need one, I might splurge...but no way I'm buying a new chiller or recirc pump now. Will this get be closer to Bavaria, or should I brew " Medium DO" and wait til I can justify buying a mill, recirc pump, and SS chiller? If I should wait, which of e 3 should I buy first?
 
Just a few comments below in RED

I guess I'll go first with a plan for my first ever LODO on my standard, KISS 10 gallon, pump free, BIAB setup, asking for pointers/opinions from those that are deeper in this. Sadly stuck with a 1/2" x 25 ft copper IC for now. I'm omitting some steps, since I'm trying to avoid buying new equipment, or at least minimize it. I'm looking for go/no-go from those who have progressed. I make good lagers, and keep my cold side tight already...but was in Germany recently, and would love to get closer to their Helles...Oh, as far as my LODO politics, I'm not yet a full believer, but have a hunch there is something real about this, enough so that I'm willing to tweak my process and try it.

1.) Use yeast/dextrose on strike water. This is certainly a viable option. What is your heat source? Can you pre-boil?
2.) Treat with 30 ppm Potassium metabisulfate (or sodium mbs) Powder or Campden?
3.) Mill grains at LHBS right into wilserbag in bucket. dough in within 60 minutes of grind. They do a nice fine grind....(too fine for LODO?) should I "bubble" Co2 through grains before dough in?)
4.) Underlet doughin by using my bayou steaminsert and Wilser-pulley to very slowly lower grain bag into water. Actually, This isnt really underletting. Underletting would be flowing the water from a separate vessel under the grains which were already in your mash tun. That would be much preferred over grains -> water. Can you actually underlet? If not, be very careful not to dough-in too quickly.
5.) Aluminum foil mashcap, target 5.4 ph, 152 F. What style of beer will it be?
6.) GENTLE stir, temp check at 20 minutes. Heat only if mash below 149. (My insulation good, so doubtful)
7.) Use pulley to pull basket with bottom of basket right at surface to minimize aeration while bag drips. (Skip my normal 168 10 minute rest). Heat to get vigorous boil, then reduce heat to more of simmer. (Partially cover with lid?) Yes. Partially covering the BK will reduce heat input needed to boil.
8.) 60 minute boil with Brewtan B.
9.) Chill with copper IC to 75, it's a beast, and usually takes 8 minutes with gentle whirlpool....sorry, but don't want to scrap my IC right now.
10.) Gently transfer 4.5 gallons to purged pinlock corny for primary fermentation.
11.) Crash corny in freezer to 50F, pitch decanted yeast starter. (Or maybe pitch at 75 prior to crash to further reduce O2 exposure?)
12.) 20 second hit with pure O2 bubble wand
13.) Days 1-3- blowoff tube ambient. 50 F If you have a nice high pitch rate (~ 2.5 M/ml/P) and the yeast is rocking when pitched, you can ferment lower here. 48F would be great.

Check this out: http://www.********************/uncategorized/lager-yeast-there-has-to-be-an-easier-way/.
Here too: http://www.********************/uncategorized/cold-fermentation-practices/

14.) Days 4-6 spunding at 12 psi? 55 F? You are transferring to a separate vessel here, yes? No need to bump up temp here. What is the target carbonation? 12 PSI @ 55F is only 1.9 volumes. 16.5 PSI @ 48F yields 2.5 volumes.
15.) Ramp chamber temp to 65 F, 7 days Why?
16.) Check gravity at day 15, D rest at 70 F 3 days Why? Should not need to at lower primary temps.
17.) Closed CO2 transfer to purged serving keg at 12 psi Can you explain this further?

Check out this writeup for info on properly purging: http://www.********************/low-oxygen-methods/

18.) Store at 32 F for 1-2 weeks.
19.) To kegerator.

This will be first time fermenting in Corny with a spunding valve (you'll want to transfer out of the primary vessel into a vessel for the spunding. You can then serve out of the spunding keg or transfer again into a serving/lagering vessel.), but I have this stuff already. I'm struggling to find a thread Ive read previously on spunding , so I may have some screw ups in my fermentation plan. Also, I really like the lack of mess of NOT having a mill, but if I need one, I might splurge...but no way I'm buying a new chiller or recirc pump now. Will this get be closer to Bavaria, or should I brew " Medium DO" and wait til I can justify buying a mill, recirc pump, and SS chiller? Hold off on those purchases and see how you like the methods as is. The mill would be my last purchase. However, the "Cereal Killer" from AIH is $110 shipped if you decide to. Solid starter mill with good build quality. A pump is nice to have but not required. The chiller can stay so long as you dose appropriately in the mash and boil with Brewtan B. Chiller speed is important and it seems you are alright on that front. If you taste your fresh wort in the mash tun and notice any degradation in flavor at end of boil you should a.) check boil vigor and b.) investigate Brewtan B dosing and copper chiller. If I should wait, which of e 3 should I buy first?
 
I'm going to post more about my first LODO attempt this past weekend, but as a way for people to think about a cheaper way to underlet, here's a pic showing how I did it. Boiled the water in the kettle, xferred to the cooler, lifted cooler above kettle, put silicone tubing on cooler ball valve and fed it to the bottom of the kettle, gently placed BIAB bag w/ grist in the kettle, stretched out bag over kettle mouth, and began to underlet the grist.

No dough balls. I'm serious. I probably added the water a bit fast, and once the water level rose above the grain I used a spoon to gently poke holes in the grist so water could get all of the grist, but once I gently stirred, I was shocked to find no dough balls floating to the surface.

underlet.jpg
 
Thanks,RPIscotty for taking the time. I have a Blichmann and a very quick chiller, so I'm definitely preboiling after thinking it through. I posted before reading the fermentation side of things, so I realize I was pretty far off. I recently got a spunding valve for kombucha secondary in kegs, so I'm going to attempt an early, closed Transfer into Co2 purged keg, and spund to carb.

Trying some of these techniques tomorrow, including a ratcheted, sllowww steamer basket lowering into the kettle that I think will simulate underletting. I'll report back with pics.
 
5E7004B5-D195-4005-9E26-6DEAA1EC380A.jpeg
So, the LODO steps were fine, but threw me off rhythm, causing a few screwups, including melting my reflectix and coat!


Key reason I’m posting is that my mash in technique seemed to work really well, and seemed similar in appearance to underletting. And no dough balls. Lo do or not going forward, I intend to mash in this way for good. This is a pretty common starter kettle for entry BIABers, bayou classic with steamer insert. Wish I had a meter....
 
Quick check in...I followed the spirit of "the paper"techniques, but being the first time, messed up a few things, ignored others based on my "kinetic intuition," and laziness, and had low expectations to be honest. The beer finished about 7 points low, but mostly due to more water at end of boil, rather than poor efficiency...I'll dial that in next batch. Tasted a sample at spunding transfer, and after day 2 of lagering, and I believe the beer tastes better, with a nicer malt profile than my previous 2 lagers I've made. I fully recognize this could be due to confirmation bias, or 100% attributable to better cold side techniques, but, Bottom line, the perceived benefits from me justify me continuing with these steps for at least the next few batches. A quick summary of what I did That is different from recommendations:

My Germany lawbreaker additives on the hot side were a potassium (yikes)! Campden tablet, which I thing contributes about 25 ppm??, and the recommended mfg dose of BTB in the mash and boil. I also added whirlifloc to the boil per normal. I figured doubtful that my palette would notice K at that level. Adjusted RO to pilsner profile, might of added too much lactic, since I was at 5.05 at mash.

I did a very slow lowering of my steam basket,stopping at least 5 seconds per click of my wilserpulley! Worked great! (See post above)
I used a mashcap, but it didn't float so well, so it was very sloppy...I did however land on a nice technique just before mashout, where I had my brewing spoon shoved to the side of a poorly sized mash cap, and manually mixed ok, with reasonably low liquid/air interface. (Very low odor) According to my refractometer, I gained a few point with this step, probably since I don't recirc. I'm left to wonder if the O2 adsorption rate at 168 F exceeded that of antioxidation reaction of my KmbS/BTB...God only knows...
I don't have, nor to I have any intention to add, recirc.
I heated the mash to 168 (but no rest at this temp), pulled the steamer basket so bottom was on meniscus of the mash to prevent dripping, left until close to boiling.i gave minor squeeze, then completed mashout, minimizing drips. I beleive that the decrease in viscosity in the mashbag achieved by 168 does support better efficiencies in BIAB mode, which is why I do this, BTW.
I boiled at a simmer for 80 minutes matching beererys YouTube video. Would have stopped at 60, but had way too much water....shoulda adjusted beersmith more!
I chilled per normal with a very efficient DIY copper chiller. (Mine is 3/8 ID, not OD), run to a very high flow hose, with constant, gentle "manual whirlpool" mixing. This is another compromise, where kinetic intuition makes me assume I'm getting some HSA for the five minutes it takes my wort to get to about 85 F...but by that time, its cold enough to slow things down, allowing the antioxidants to help...if there are any left. Again with no DO meter, who knows for sure.
Really happy with the break, likely due to the BTB (first time). But I started transfer a bit too soon, and sent a reasonable amount of trub over by mistake before stopping and waiting. Next time, I'll put the mash cap back on, and let it drop out completely, maybe 30 minutes, before transfer.
I ferment in a 6 gallon glass carboy. Put it in the freezer with decanted 2L starter of WLP 029, brought it down to 58, pitched, then oxygenated for 90 seconds with pure O2.
Closed transfer to fully purged (sanitizer method ) keg day 4 to spundin, about 4 gravity points predicted . First time, but this makes a ton of sense to me, and see little reason not to do this for all beers, except maybe high gravity.

Followed Kolsh temp profile, and raised to 67 after only 1 day spunding. Due to screwups with spunding valve, I lost pressurization down to 6 psi, so it's sitting on 12 lbs of carbonation at 33 F as we speak. I know, I'm breaking quite a few rules here, but again, my perception of improvement as of now justifies it.....stay tuned for when the beer is finished....but on day 2 of lagering, best I've ever made to date....which is not saying much due to my 1 year long, 3 lager brewing career. This being said, I do get to drink draft beer in Germany about twice a year, so I know the goalpost. I am much closer than I thought I would be so far, but time will tell if it holds up when I sample fully carbed next week....

Sorry for all the boring details, but thought I'd share, and I'm happy to hear from any of you about suggestions/opinions of my process. I am still a new Brewer 1 year into this hobby, learning every batch, so I'm open to criticism.
 
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