Pitch Yeast 1st or Add to top

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SnowRaven

SnowRaven

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Is there any reason not to pitch the yeast into a 6 gallon glass fermentor 1st
and then add the wort? Thinking this will mix the yeast into the wort better?

Any difference on the above with a smack pack or dry yeast?
 
I always add yeast to my wort, not the other way around. Not sure if there is a specific reason, other than "because." I'd also recommend that you rehydrate dry yeast first, then pitch, rather than sprinkling it dry on the wort.
 
LLBeanJ said:
I always add yeast to my wort, not the other way around. Not sure if there is a specific reason, other than "because." I'd also recommend that you rehydrate dry yeast first, then pitch, rather than sprinkling it dry on the wort.
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I concur with the Dry

Thoughts are use the fill cycle to mix the yeast in. Just wondering of there is a down side to yeast in 1st as we lack agitiation in our fermentors?
 
Always rehydrate dry yeast. If you don't it will clump up when added to the fermenter and fermentation usually takes off much faster when rehydrated first.

With liquid yeast or rehydrated dry I always add it to the fermenter while siphoning my wort in for a better mix. It won't make any difference but yeast need oxygen so when you aerate the wort it is best to have the yeast already mixed in, it's the same thing a stir plate does so why would you not mix in the yeast?
 
The main reason to add the yeast to your wort and not the other way is that you should pitch your yeast into aerated wort.

I have tried pitching before aerating and was not very happy with the results (it produced off flavors). But that may have been my inexperience at the time, but I haven't done it that way since and never have off flavors.
 
Well,it's not really "better" to have the yeast mixed in while pouring in the wort. I like to aerate & mix wort & top off water first,then stir the rehydrated yeast & pour it in after taking my hydrometer sample. Jot down the numbers,& use the sample to wash out the flask to get the last bit of yeast out.
 
Point made

Next Question
Is a stir plate worth the investment? and would you go with 1000ml or a 2000ml flask?
 
If you plan on brewing 5 gallon batches, definitely go with a 2L flask (at least). I had some 1L flasks but I hardly ever used them because my starters are usually at least a liter.
 
CA_Mouse said:
The main reason to add the yeast to your wort and not the other way is that you should pitch your yeast into aerated wort.

I have tried pitching before aerating and was not very happy with the results (it produced off flavors). But that may have been my inexperience at the time, but I haven't done it that way since and never have off flavors.
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That's not what caused your off flavors. Yeast take time to synthesize the oxygen in suspension, so unless you're aerating (or shaking) a while after fermentation has begun, there won't be any difference between pitching into aerated wort or pitching then aerating.

OP, either is fine. There isn't any need to mix the yeast into suspension, however, since fermentation is pretty violent. If you've ever seen the side of a glass carboy during fermentation, there is constant mixing going on.

And on the stir plate, yes. There are plenty of economical choices out there. Whatever you do, don't go and buy Northern Brewer's $80 stir plate. They're not worth that price.

http://www.stirstarters.com/ <-- This guy used to sell them direct, and they were only $30. Now he's selling through stores, and they're $45, which is still an ok price, but you could also make one for really really cheap. There are tons of how-to's and diagrams on the net, and they're pretty easy.
 
TheZymurgist said:
And on the stir plate, yes. There are plenty of economical choices out there. Whatever you do, don't go and buy Northern Brewer's $80 stir plate. They're not worth that price.

http://www.stirstarters.com/ <-- This guy used to sell them direct, and they were only $30. Now he's selling through stores, and they're $45, which is still an ok price, but you could also make one for really really cheap. There are tons of how-to's and diagrams on the net, and they're pretty easy.
Click to expand...

So the V2 at Northen is not worth the $90 (AHA Discount)
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/the-vortex-stir-plate.html
(or are you talking about the older V1)

vs Stirstarts new Large 5L at $80
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/STIRSTARTER-FOR-3000MM-TO-5000MM-FLASKS-P3137C108.aspx
http://www.homebrewing.org/The-Stirstarter-Yeast-Stir-Plate-5L_p_3329.html
 
SnowRaven said:
So the V2 at Northen is not worth the $90 (AHA Discount)
http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/the-vortex-stir-plate.html
(or are you talking about the older V1)

vs Stirstarts new Large 5L at $80
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/STIRSTARTER-FOR-3000MM-TO-5000MM-FLASKS-P3137C108.aspx
http://www.homebrewing.org/The-Stirstarter-Yeast-Stir-Plate-5L_p_3329.html
Click to expand...

Personally, I wouldn't pay that much for them. You shouldn't need to do more than a 2L starter for most batches, especially if you step up. Although, if you want to use a 5L starter, then you might need something bigger. I would consider building it myself then, since I can think of a number of things to use the saved money on. Plus the fact that 5L flasks are pretty expensive, I wouldn't want to sink that much money into a stir plate since there are cheaper options.
 
TheZymurgist said:
That's not what caused your off flavors. Yeast take time to synthesize the oxygen in suspension, so unless you're aerating (or shaking) a while after fermentation has begun, there won't be any difference between pitching into aerated wort or pitching then aerating.
Click to expand...

That is why I made it a point that it could have been my inexperience. In any case, I have never had the same off flavors appear and the only change was pitching after aerating.
 
SnowRaven said:
Is a stir plate worth the investment? and would you go with 1000ml or a 2000ml flask?
Click to expand...

I built my own and haven't done a single beer without it since. If you are planning on doing any lagers or high gravity ales, you want a bigger flask (2 liter for ales and 4 liters for lagers). Unless you plan to do step-up starters. I started with a 1 liter and it was fine until I started making bigger beers (aka +1.075 SG) and got tired of making starters on Sunday to cold crash on Tuesday to make a starter for Thursday to pitch on Saturday. Too much work with a small flask (just like having too small of a kettle or mash tun).
 
CA_Mouse said:
I built my own and haven't done a single beer without it since. If you are planning on doing any lagers or high gravity ales, you want a bigger flask (2 liter for ales and 4 liters for lagers). Unless you plan to do step-up starters. I started with a 1 liter and it was fine until I started making bigger beers (aka +1.075 SG) and got tired of making starters on Sunday to cold crash on Tuesday to make a starter for Thursday to pitch on Saturday. Too much work with a small flask (just like having too small of a kettle or mash tun).
Click to expand...


Yes lagers are my focus

So I should go with a 5 liter setup? As a 2 liter would be to small?

I have a 8 gallon setup (2x10 gallon mash / liquor orange coolers & a 8 gallon megapot)
 
SnowRaven said:
What do you mean by STEP UP ?
Click to expand...

Stepping up a starter is when you basically do two or more starters with the same yeast, increasing the gravity of the wort as you go. Typically, since I have a 2L flask, I start with a 2L starter of ~1.040 wort, let that ferment, cold crash in the fridge, and decant the liquid off the yeast. I then do a second 2L starter of ~1.070 or 1.080. This method usually overflows the flask a fair amount on the second starter, making a bit of a mess.

Alternatively, you can do a 2L starter of ~1.040 wort, decant when it's done, and then split the yeast in half (putting one half in a mason jar in the fridge) and do a second starter of ~1.040 with the other half of the yeast. This method doesn't have an issue with overflow, but you don't get the same yield.

If you're doing lagers, I would go with at least a 4L flask, and plan on doing stepped up starters, just to be on the safe side. It's very easy to underpitch yeast, but at our level it's fairly difficult to overpitch to the point of adversely affecting the beer. Unless, you're intentionally trying to underpitch to force ester production, but that's a whole other issue that takes a bit of experience to master.

Hope this helps!
 
TheZymurgist said:
Stepping up a starter is when you basically do two or more starters with the same yeast, increasing the gravity of the wort as you go. Typically, since I have a 2L flask, I start with a 2L starter of ~1.040 wort, let that ferment, cold crash in the fridge, and decant the liquid off the yeast. I then do a second 2L starter of ~1.070 or 1.080.
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Wait ... what?

I'm familiar with the idea of "stepping up" yeast starters, but I was always under the impression that the gravity remains constant: 1.040. This is the first I've heard that subsequent "steps" are supposed to have higher gravities. What's your source for that advice?

And to the OP: If your focus is lagers, then you should definitely get a 5L flask. You'll need it if you ever brew a Doppelbock.
 
TheZymurgist said:
If you're doing lagers, I would go with at least a 4L flask, and plan on doing stepped up starters, just to be on the safe side...
Click to expand...

+1

I have two 2L flasks and one 5L. I use the 2L's more often, but the 5L really makes doing those larger lager starters easy, as well as better containing those strains that tend to be more active than others. No matter how hard I try, I can't keep a 1L starter of WLP550 from overflowing the 2L, so I don't even bother with the smaller flask on that particular strain anymore. With that said, the 5L is a bit of overkill IMO, as a 4L would be plenty adequate and take up a little less space.
 
I hadn't heard of stepping up gravity like that before either. I always step up the volume, keeping gravity around 1.035. I would think going up to 1.080 would be stressful for the yeast because of the high initial sugar content as well as the high alcohol content when the starter is done fermenting, wouldn't it?
 
I bought a 4L glass jar at Big Lots for $8. It has a nice flat bottom and my stir bar spins perfectly in it. I don't understand spending $50+ for a large flask that is likely to get dropped and shattered at some point. I make starters just as well as flask users.
 
I agree, a big jar will work fine. The main benefit of a flask is that you can boil your starter wort in it, cool it, and then add yeast. Some folks like that. Most of us probably don't need that ability.
 
kombat said:
Wait ... what?

I'm familiar with the idea of "stepping up" yeast starters, but I was always under the impression that the gravity remains constant: 1.040. This is the first I've heard that subsequent "steps" are supposed to have higher gravities. What's your source for that advice?

And to the OP: If your focus is lagers, then you should definitely get a 5L flask. You'll need it if you ever brew a Doppelbock.
Click to expand...

I'll see if I can find it, but think about it logically. The goal is to both increase the number of cells, as well as acclimate the yeast to their environment. Increasing the gravity helps in accomplishing the latter, so that they're not shocked when being dumped into a wort with 1.100+ gravity, straight from a gravity of 1.040 or less.

As far as increasing cell count goes, if you don't increase the gravity, then the ratio of sugar to yeast cells is lower, meaning there is less food for the yeast munch on, so they won't reproduce as much. Think of it this way: if you have 100 billion cells in a 2L starter of 1.040 gravity, let's assume they double to 200 billion cells. Now, in order to get them to double again, you would need to increase either the gravity of the wort, or the size of the starter, so that the ratio of food to yeast is the same. If you have 200 billion cells in a 2L 1.040 starter, they won't be able to double their numbers a second time because there isn't enough food for everyone.
 
boydster said:
I hadn't heard of stepping up gravity like that before either. I always step up the volume, keeping gravity around 1.035. I would think going up to 1.080 would be stressful for the yeast because of the high initial sugar content as well as the high alcohol content when the starter is done fermenting, wouldn't it?
Click to expand...

Have you ever poured your starter into a high gravity wort? Wouldn't it have the same effect. If you step up the gravity slowly, the yeast will be less stressed than if they go directly from a 1.035 starter into a wort of 1.095, right?

We use the same concept in the salt water aquarium hobby. When I buy a new fish, I don't just dump it directly into the tank. The water it's been sitting in most likely has a different specific gravity (of salt, not sugar) than my aquarium, as well as different mineral and waste content. I have to put the fish on a drip system to slowly introduce the fish to my aquarium environment, otherwise the fish gets shocked and stressed, sometimes even to the point of death.
 
TheZymurgist said:
I'll see if I can find it, but think about it logically. The goal is to both increase the number of cells, as well as acclimate the yeast to their environment. Increasing the gravity helps in accomplishing the latter, so that they're not shocked when being dumped into a wort with 1.100+ gravity, straight from a gravity of 1.040 or less.

As far as increasing cell count goes, if you don't increase the gravity, then the ratio of sugar to yeast cells is lower, meaning there is less food for the yeast munch on, so they won't reproduce as much. Think of it this way: if you have 100 billion cells in a 2L starter of 1.040 gravity, let's assume they double to 200 billion cells. Now, in order to get them to double again, you would need to increase either the gravity of the wort, or the size of the starter, so that the ratio of food to yeast is the same. If you have 200 billion cells in a 2L 1.040 starter, they won't be able to double their numbers a second time because there isn't enough food for everyone.
Click to expand...

The logic makes sense, but empirical evidence suggests otherwise. Increasing the gravity doesn't get the yeast used to it, it just stresses them out.

Most sources of brewing literature recommend keeping gravity around 1.030 to 1.040 and increasing volume.
 
You raise a good point, and one worth thinking about. I thought I read somewhere that yeast should be grown under low-gravity, high-O2 conditions to get the healthiest possible colony before pitching into your beer, but I can't cite the reference off hand so I may be entirely wrong... For some reason that has always stuck with me though.
 
boydster said:
...I thought I read somewhere that yeast should be grown under low-gravity, high-O2 conditions to get the healthiest possible colony before pitching into your beer...
Click to expand...

I would stick with that advice.
 
TyTanium said:
The logic makes sense, but empirical evidence suggests otherwise. Increasing the gravity doesn't get the yeast used to it, it just stresses them out.

Most sources of brewing literature recommend keeping gravity around 1.030 to 1.040 and increasing volume.
Click to expand...

That's consistent with the research I've read, too. That's why stepping up yeast starters is usually a case of rapidly diminishing returns. That is, the first step might double the yeast count, but the next step might only increase it by another 30%, rather than doubling again.

As you note, I've also read that using starters with too high a gravity is stressful for the yeast, and increases mutations and off-flavours.

Ideally, you want to increase the volume of the starter, not the gravity. But if you cannot increase the volume, then there is still some benefit to decanting and doing it again, even at the same gravity. You will still get some growth, but not as much.
 
kombat said:
That's consistent with the research I've read, too. That's why stepping up yeast starters is usually a case of rapidly diminishing returns. That is, the first step might double the yeast count, but the next step might only increase it by another 30%, rather than doubling again.

As you note, I've also read that using starters with too high a gravity is stressful for the yeast, and increases mutations and off-flavours.

Ideally, you want to increase the volume of the starter, not the gravity. But if you cannot increase the volume, then there is still some benefit to decanting and doing it again, even at the same gravity. You will still get some growth, but not as much.
Click to expand...

Ideally, yes. It is better to increase the volume of the starter, as that does stress the yeast less. But, I've found I have better results (i.e. faster fermentation, better attenuation, cleaner ester profiles) when increasing the gravity when I'm pitching into a much larger beer. The thought is that the yeast will be less stressed when they hit 1.100 gravity wort if they've been acclimated first to 1.040 wort, then 1.080 wort, rather than going straight from 1.040 to 1.100.

I'm certainly not saying this is a requirement, only that it's an option. I need to go back to my Yeast (J. Zainasheff) book, as I'm thinking that's where I read it. I could be wrong, though.

As always people have different experiences, and I'm just reporting mine. I read something that made sense to me, tried it, and found I had better results. The only thing I can say is give it a try before you completely discredit it.
 
I have that book too, and I'll check it when I get home. But I seem to remember one passage where the authors specifically note that it's better to have 200 billion healthy, viable cells than 400 billion stressed, mutated cells.
 
Touching on the original question for a moment,The reason for my answer is that I don't want the yeast that I just pitched to get coated on the inside of the fermenter on the lid. Much less above the liquid line. It doesn't rinse off as easy as one might think while stiring roughly or agitating. So I started aerating first,then pitching. It doesn't need to be stired at that point. It tends to coat the spoon anyway. And they seem to mix themselves just fine as they swirl around during fermentation.
 
So what stir plate are you all using? For 4L and 5L flasks / containers?

I could see using a 4L Pyrex beaker (jar) and just covering with plastic wrap (not sure if you really need to sanitize plastic wrap) I know we did this with samples in the food lab at Madison 20 years ago.

Decanting the starter was what the seminar at NB discussed, just did not associate with the step-up verbiage. Could have sworn I have heard washing/rinsing the yeast was a good idea in RODI before pitching is also used.
 
A beaker would work just as well as a flask imo. but whether using plastic or aluminum foil,a spritz of sanitizer is always a good safguard.
 
unionrdr said:
A beaker would work just as well as a flask imo. but whether using plastic or aluminum foil,a spritz of sanitizer is always a good safguard.
Click to expand...


What stir plate are you using for 4-5L yeast propagation?
 
I don't have a stir plate yet. i made a 1L starter for the WL029 kolsh yeast for my hybrid lagers. That yeast's sweet spot is 64-69F,so such a large starter wasn't needed,as it turned out. Looking back,a 2L flask would've been better,though. The 029 yeast is the steadiest fermenter I've ever seen.
 
Not that I'm an expert, but I am lazy so... I rehydrate in my fermenter while I brew to maximize the surface area for the yeast to spread out. Then chill and then aerate in the keggle. This way none of the yeast I rehydrated gets left behind AND I don't have to wash something extra (there's already enough equipment to clean).

Since I started this procedure all of my dry yeast have been successful (actually most have over attenuated slightly).
 
Yeah, every one of my recent batches the gravity ended up 0.002-0.004 past the bottom end of the expected FG range.
 

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