Pitch rate for lager yeast at 70f

[Brew_Meister_General]

I will be fermenting with the WY2124 Bohemian Lager at 70f and wondered what my pitch rate should be (m/ml) in order not to create too many esters from underpitching or too many fusels from overpitching.

Thanks!

 

[boydster]

You may want to reconsider pitching at 70F, first and foremost. From Wyeast's website (emphasis mine):

This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world. This strain produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. A versatile strain, that is great to use with lagers or Pilsners for fermentations in the 45-55°F (8-12°C) range. It may also be used for Common beer production with fermentations at 65-68°F (18-20°C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.

To answer your question, the general rule of thumb for a lager is to pitch 1.5 million cells/ml/°P. I really think concentrating on lower temperatures is the first thing to consider when trying to get a clean lager, though.

 

[Mainer]

You may want to reconsider pitching at 70F, first and foremost. From Wyeast's website (emphasis mine):



To answer your question, the general rule of thumb for a lager is to pitch 1.5 million cells/ml/°P. I really think concentrating on lower temperatures is the first thing to consider when trying to get a clean lager, though.

I don't think it would be a disaster to pitch when the wort is at 70, as long as you're planning to bring it down to the fermentation range fairly quickly. I'd definitely avoid fermenting anywhere near 70.

 

[h22lude]

I have been on a brulosophy reading kick lately (see my other comment in another post about ferm temp lol).

This exbeeriment is perfect for this thread. It is exactly what you are looking at. http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/08/fe...ager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/

34/70 yeast fermented at 50° and 70°. 26 people tested, 13 need to determine the higher temp beer to be statistically significant. Only 12 could. Still a good amount but it shows that even at 20° higher, you will still make a great lager.

Edit: I should state that this was a one time test. If done multiple times with different testers, the results may differ. Still a good practice to ferment in the temp range of the yeast but if you don't, as long as your brew process is spot on and you use the right amount of healthy yeast, you will make great beer.

 

[kombat]

I was wondering if someone was going to post the Brulosopher link. While interesting, I certainly don't think it demonstrates that fermentation temperature is irrelevant. All it shows is that, if you're as meticulous about the rest of your process as he is, and you have a bunch of friends with weak tasting palettes, some of them won't be able to tell the difference.

Is the OP's process as meticulous as Brulosopher's?

Also, I don't believe you get fusels from overpitching. In my experience, fusels come from fermenting too warm, which is precisely what appears to be being proposed here. I would much rather overpitch than underpitch, especially with a lager.

I would strongly recommend pitching plenty of yeast (per the 1.5 million cells/mL/°P recommendation), and holding the fermentation temperature toward the low end of the range recommended by the yeast manufacturer.

 

[Mainer]

I have been on a brulosophy reading kick lately (see my other comment in another post about ferm temp lol).

This exbeeriment is perfect for this thread. It is exactly what you are looking at. http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/08/fe...ager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/

34/70 yeast fermented at 50° and 70°. 26 people tested, 13 need to determine the higher temp beer to be statistically significant. Only 12 could. Still a good amount but it shows that even at 20° higher, you will still make a great lager.

Edit: I should state that this was a one time test. If done multiple times with different testers, the results may differ. Still a good practice to ferment in the temp range of the yeast but if you don't, as long as your brew process is spot on and you use the right amount of healthy yeast, you will make great beer.

Brulosophy exbeeriments mostly seem to show that whatever thing everybody knows you must do or must never do in order to keep your beer from sucking really doesn't matter as much as you think it does.

 

[h22lude]

I was wondering if someone was going to post the Brulosopher link. While interesting, I certainly don't think it demonstrates that fermentation temperature is irrelevant. All it shows is that, if you're as meticulous about the rest of your process as he is, and you have a bunch of friends with weak tasting palettes, some of them won't be able to tell the difference.

Is the OP's process as meticulous as Brulosopher's?

Also, I don't believe you get fusels from overpitching. In my experience, fusels come from fermenting too warm, which is precisely what appears to be being proposed here. I would much rather overpitch than underpitch, especially with a lager.

I would strongly recommend pitching plenty of yeast (per the 1.5 million cells/mL/°P recommendation), and holding the fermentation temperature toward the low end of the range recommended by the yeast manufacturer.

No one is saying temp is irrelevant. Good temp control is always a good thing. His exbeeriment shows with a good yeast starter and good brewing practice you can still make good beer if fermentation temp is higher than it should be (which is what I said in my original post).

 

[h22lude]

Brulosophy exbeeriments mostly seem to show that whatever thing everybody knows you must do or must never do in order to keep your beer from sucking really doesn't matter as much as you think it does.

What I take from most of his exbeeriments is if you have a good brewing process and pitch a good healthy yeast starter, you can make good beer. Temp control, pitching temp, aeration are things we should all do but not doing one won't ruin your beer.

 

[Mainer]

Definitely not saying temp doesn't matter. But they do seem to show that it's a lot harder to ruin a beer than you think it is.

 

[kombat]

I dunno, I've turned out a handful of batches that definitely did not live up to their potential, and even had a couple of dumpers. In the worst cases, I traced the causes back to fermenting too hot, or lack of aeration, or underpitching the yeast. I could DEFINITELY taste the differences, and the rest of my process was meticulous. These experiences have reinforced to me that the single most important factor in producing quality beer is yeast management.

 

[h22lude]

Definitely not saying temp doesn't matter. But they do seem to show that it's a lot harder to ruin a beer than you think it is.

Yup, I agree. He did say he could taste some esters in the higher one but it was 20° higher.

 

[Brew_Meister_General]

I would strongly recommend pitching plenty of yeast (per the 1.5 million cells/mL/°P recommendation), and holding the fermentation temperature toward the low end of the range recommended by the yeast manufacturer.

To answer your question, the general rule of thumb for a lager is to pitch 1.5 million cells/ml/°P. I really think concentrating on lower temperatures is the first thing to consider when trying to get a clean lager, though.

Fermenting at lager temps isn't a possibility so i thought I'd go for the 2124 as it can still operate well at 70f, 1.5m/ml/p seems like a lot for an ale temp, should I go for something in-between in order to create a cleaner profile whist avoiding possible off-flavours (1.0-1.25m)?

Kolsh yeast is an option but from what ive read the 2124 would produce a cleaner, crisper beer.

 

[boydster]

Fermenting at lager temps isn't a possibility so i thought I'd go for the 2124 as it can still operate well at 70f, 1.5m/ml/p seems like a lot for an ale temp, should I go for something in-between in order to create a cleaner profile whist avoiding possible off-flavours (1.0-1.25m)?

Kolsh yeast is an option but from what ive read the 2124 would produce a cleaner, crisper beer.

70F is above the upper recommended range for that particular yeast (65-68 recommended range for using it to make a Common, otherwise known as a steam beer). Since you are going for a clean profile, I'm just concerned you might have difficulty realizing that goal by using this yeast at 70. Also, is that 70 ambient temperature, or are you able to control the fermentation temperature to 70 (because active fermentation at an ambient temp of 70 will be much higher, probably close to 80)? If you are going to ferment at ale temps, pitching .75-1.0 million/ml/degree P makes sense as the yeast will be warm and active enough to establish a big population quickly. Have you considered using just a clean ale yeast? I understand lager yeasts can make a very clean beer, but the caveat is that generally that means fermenting at lager temps.

Just my $.02, though. Obviously there are other opinions and everyone is entitled to their own.

 

[Brew_Meister_General]

70F is above the upper recommended range for that particular yeast (65-68 recommended range for using it to make a Common, otherwise known as a steam beer). Since you are going for a clean profile, I'm just concerned you might have difficulty realizing that goal by using this yeast at 70. Also, is that 70 ambient temperature, or are you able to control the fermentation temperature to 70 (because active fermentation at an ambient temp of 70 will be much higher, probably close to 80)? If you are going to ferment at ale temps, pitching .75-1.0 million/ml/degree P makes sense as the yeast will be warm and active enough to establish a big population quickly. Have you considered using just a clean ale yeast? I understand lager yeasts can make a very clean beer, but the caveat is that generally that means fermenting at lager temps.

70f will be the ambient temperature, I just thought I'd like to try it.

But I came across this exbeeriment where he pitches at 1.5m with the 34/70 (which I'm going to switch to), ferments one at 50f and another at 70f and astonishingly enough, finds very little different!

http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/08/fe...ager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/

 

[boydster]

70f will be the ambient temperature, I just thought I'd like to try it.

But I came across this exbeeriment where he pitches at 1.5m with the 34/70 (which I'm going to switch to), ferments one at 50f and another at 70f and astonishingly enough, finds very little different!

http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/08/fe...ager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/

Sounds like your mind's made up. To me, fermenting 34/70 at 70F ambient temp it doesn't sound like a recipe for success, but I've been wrong before. I think often times, the best way to decide if something is right for you is to just give it a shot. I'd be interested to hear how you like it

 

[applescrap]

All it shows is that, if you're as meticulous about the rest of your process as he is, and you have a bunch of friends with weak tasting palettes, some of them won't be able to tell the difference.

In his first lager temp. experiment he took it to the National Homebrew conference where a bunch of monster Brewers tasted it and couldn't tell the difference. He himself said he couldn't tell the difference at all and he parsed out the 19 BJCP judges and they couldn't tell the difference. He did it again with a second lager yeast and had the same results. Only when one of the other brulosophy people did an 82 degree ferment could a minor difference be seen. To answer the original question I would guess just the basic amount

 

[applescrap]

Some of the data to perhaps refresh your memory

View attachment 1463276388295.jpg

View attachment 1463276396547.jpg

View attachment 1463276405821.jpg

 

[FlyDoctor]

Good job Apple. I would only amend your data to say that if you want to replicate the data from Marshall, you should use his pitching rate.

 

[boydster]

There's an awful lot of weight being put on one exBEERiment. FWIW, the whitecoats at the companies that produce these yeasts science their product pretty hard in order to come up with the target temperature ranges that they recommend.

Regarding that p-value reference in the screenshot, remember, in statistical analysis, "y itself, a p-value does not provide a good measure of evidence regarding a model or hypothesis." So not achieving the >.05 p-value, while interesting, isn't necessarily an indication of anything.

I feel like there's a reason the big brewers use temperature control. Otherwise, they would save a TON of money by eliminating that from their process. I don't mean to appeal to authority, it's just an observation that I think deserves some consideration, much like the exBEERiment and the fact that the labs have a specific (and lower) suggested temperature for optimal beer production. These are all data points that OP should consider.

Ultimately, OP, you just need to decide if you want to try it and see if you like the result. And I think everyone here probably supports you in going for it.





...Also: someone needs to charge their battery

 

[FlyDoctor]

I agree - and have suggested to Marshall that true science needs repeated trials (I am a scientist, and I only publish things if I get the same results in at least three separate experiments). I actually derive my p values from the means of each experiment, not the number of observations in each experiment as Marshall and experimental home brewing do, but hey, this is beer and not real science...However, one also cannot ignore results here either. Also, he conducted a few temp experiments and had similar results, so I think it's a bit stronger than just one experiment.

 

[applescrap]

There's an awful lot of weight being put on one exBEERiment. FWIW, the whitecoats at the companies that produce these yeasts science their product pretty hard in order to come up with the target temperature ranges that they recommend.

Regarding that p-value reference in the screenshot, remember, in statistical analysis, "y itself, a p-value does not provide a good measure of evidence regarding a model or hypothesis." So not achieving the >.05 p-value, while interesting, isn't necessarily an indication of anything.

I feel like there's a reason the big brewers use temperature control. Otherwise, they would save a TON of money by eliminating that from their process. I don't mean to appeal to authority, it's just an observation that I think deserves some consideration, much like the exBEERiment and the fact that the labs have a specific (and lower) suggested temperature for optimal beer production. These are all data points that OP should consider.

Ultimately, OP, you just need to decide if you want to try it and see if you like the result. And I think everyone here probably supports you in going for it.



...Also: someone needs to charge their battery

I appreciate your response boydster.
If i had a quarter for every time I heard an argument like this....my favorite is that people who short boil or change anything just want to get drunk or don't know or care about "good" beer and might as well just "go to the store". the same things are still being said about biab!

we're not big Brewers we're homebrewers quite frankly connecting the two shouldnt be done because we do things differently and it's plausible that things that are important on a mass scale* arent on a small scale. Good example the short boil dms blah blah, he got negative results so everyone cried use pilsen malt so he used pilsen same results, sent to lab no dms. Yet people will still say 60 minute boil. The real question is why are people so married to their process and why are people so afraid of experimenting.

Btw thanks for making my point saflager 34/70 is rated by THEM to 71°. Yes their optimal temperature is listed lower but the reality is not in p values or opinions. Its in blind taste testing, our mouths just can't perceive the difference despite scientifically a difference being present. I don't make lagers because I can buy them so cheap. But you better believe I have no problem doing a 30-minute boil with pilsner malt and fermenting in my basement like I do all my other beers. I appreciated your thoughtful response and dont mean to come off harsh and am sorry if i do. These are really my true feelings at the moment but I always reserve the right to consider reconsidering.
I know this battery won't stay charged ticking me off

 

[boydster]

...Btw thanks for making my point saflager 34/70 is rated by THEM to 71°...

To the rest of your post outside of what I quoted, I say do what you do and more power to ya! I don't think you sounded harsh, and having a conversation about brewing I think is why most of us are here, right?

To this one point I quoted above, I say let's be honest and acknowledge that the OP is going to have a fermentation temperature that is certainly higher than 71 because he'll be fermenting at 70 ambient temp. It's just a strange choice to make when the stated goal is to produce a clean tasting lager. I really didn't think pointing that out would be so controversial.

Don't get me wrong, the dialog about what has worked in outlier cases is awesome and definitely deserves consideration - that's how progress is made. I like Brulosopher's blog for that reason. But he's not the only one who has done temperature experiments, as I'm sure you are aware. ScienceBrewer did one, for instance, and temperatures had a very noticeable impact on the beer. UntamedBeer also did a temp control experiment and, again, came up with a very noticeable difference between the beers. They both used ale yeast, not lager yeast, which could be the reason for the different results. But then, that's just speculation with nothing to back it up.

Welcome to the internet, though, where I'll be the first to admit you can find confirmation for even the craziest thing you go looking for. I mean, really: space aliens walk among us, the world is going to end <insert close date that will be adjusted after it doesn't happen>, and reptile-people are obviously controlling the world's governments. At least the brewing stuff we're chatting about makes sense to me.

 

[applescrap]

Agree and i appreciate the Brewing discussion a lot thanks. Both those experiments used Belgian yeast which are definitely known to be highly reactive at different temperatures so it's not really a good comparison. I never claimed Belgian yeast wouldn't make a difference or that every Style had fermentation temperature control being a non-issue. Just that lagers can be made at higher temps. Can you please find me some lager temperature experiments or people who had results that were negative because I have had trouble doing that

 

[applescrap]

One last thought on all this. The issue is that it is often stated or comes out at least implied that these little changes are going to create this terrible product that no one will drink and needs to be dumped when in reality nine times out of ten nobody can even tell the difference in blind taste testing and even when they can rarely is one that much better than the other they are just different. See that's the whole point. It's always perceived to be that somebody is just trying to get drunk or should just go to the store if they change anything from a manual and everybody else is making such Supreme beers using other techniques when in reality even if there's a difference it's rarely negative. I can assure you the beers I'm drinking are not gasoline because I do a 45-minute mash and 45 minute boil and that my fermentation temperature dropped from 152 to 150.

 

[casualbrewer]

Just to add some more evidence here. I fermented 34/70 at 65 degrees on my Helles and it was the cleanest lager I have done yet. Very diverse strain.

 

[brewbama]

Just to add some more evidence here. I fermented 34/70 at 65 degrees on my Helles and it was the cleanest lager I have done yet. Very diverse strain.

Did you get esters at that temp? Did you pitch one or two packs?

 

[boydster]

Agree and i appreciate the Brewing discussion a lot thanks. Both those experiments used Belgian yeast which are definitely known to be highly reactive at different temperatures so it's not really a good comparison. I never claimed Belgian yeast wouldn't make a difference or that every Style had fermentation temperature control being a non-issue. Just that lagers can be made at higher temps. Can you please find me some lager temperature experiments or people who had results that were negative because I have had trouble doing that

I am unaware of any lager yeast experiments involving fermenting a beer at 70F ambient temp and an unknown (but certainly higher... 78? 80?) actual fermentation temperature, nor have I done it myself to offer an anecdote. It's just so different than anything I would have considered trying when there are other yeasts that have been used successfully by so many other experienced brewers at warm temperatures. It's wicked ****in hawt for a lagah, guy.

I know fermenting 34/70 at 50 worked well for me, but that's neither here nor there. I know what Wyeast, White Labs, and Fermentis recommend for temps with their various lager yeasts, and why their scientists say warmer temperatures could negatively impact a brew. I know that most breweries - macro, micro, nano, whatever - control the temps of their lagers to the recommended ranges to hit the flavor profile they are looking for at much greater cost than would be involved in just letting it ride at ambient temps. And I know enough to know that I don't know it all.

...So I'll bow out and await results from Brew_Meister_General. Cheers.

 

[Brew_Meister_General]

Perhaps its just the imperfections of our home brew masking any noticeable difference between the two beers (50f and 70f)