Pid, ssr, wtf ...

CornyKegs 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
chefchris

chefchris

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
1,711
Reaction score
23
Location
Gainesville, Florida
So I've been wanting to go electric for a while now. The heat is starting to hit here in Florida and I want to get the ball rolling on it. Pretty much have all the equipment minus a few fittings.

However, I've never understood how to hook up a PID & SSR. Is there a tutorial somewhere. I need the basics. I've seen the video on here with the light bulb, but a write up with pictures would be nice.

Any help?
 
The PID comes with a pretty comprehensive outline, but basically....

If you want a PID that you can use on a BK, you need to make sure that it has MANUAL mode. Auber SYL-2352 will be that PID.

The PID has a + and - output (5VDC)

The SSR has a + and - input from the PID

Easy, yes?

The other TWO terminals on the SSR are for the LINE in and LOAD out...

It seems hard to understand, until you get the two things in front of you, and then it is just + to + and - to -

You are dealing with 4 wires...

+ and - to the + and - terminals on the SSR

and the LINE in and LOAD out on the SSR (the one you are turning on and off)
 
what about the temp probe and all that? is there a list anywhere of the model numbers used like the one you listed above. Basically just a list that says, "Buy 2 of these, 1 of these ..."
 
Well, the number you need will depend on what you are controlling, how many kettles, elements etc...

The SYL -2352 is the PID that is most used
Go with a 40A SSR and heatsink for each HOT that you wish to turn on and off

You need a thermocouple or RTD Model PT100-L50NPT, these, again, have screw positions on the back of the PID that are clearly laid out in the manual for the PID.
 
Here is my shopping list for my Boil Keg

  • 40 A SSR***Item# RS1A40D40 $19.00 USD
  • Heat Sink for 40A SSR Item# HS40 $18.50 USD
  • 1/16 DIN PID Temperature Controller Item# SYL-2352 $44.50 USD
  • Liquid tight RTD sensor, probe, 1/4 NPT Thread Item# PT100-L100NPT $32.55


You need a temp sensor. The RTD is more accurate supposedly than the K type, I am not sure if it makes a big difference. This sends the temp to the PID that will turn on or off the element. The amperage of an element is too much for the PID so you need a SSR to act as a switch for the element, which can handle the load. The SSR needs a heat sync to prevent it form overheating.

This is just what you need to run a BK. As mentioned a more complex system will need more parts but this will get the BK going. If you buy these you will be able to figure out the wiring with help here.

One other issue is how to add the temp sensor and heating element to your kettle, which is a whole other issue.
 
willynilly said:
Well, the number you need will depend on what you are controlling, how many kettles, elements etc...

The SYL -2352 is the PID that is most used
Go with a 40A SSR and heatsink for each HOT that you wish to turn on and off

You need a thermocouple or RTD Model PT100-L50NPT, these, again, have screw positions on the back of the PID that are clearly laid out in the manual for the PID.
Click to expand...

Thermocouple + Auber PID = bad. Go RTD. As the cold junction in the Auber PID changes temp, the thermocouple reading will become very inaccurate.
 
ok, maybe it'll help a little more if I'm more specific. I'm doing a HERMS system. Using my old 25' IC as the coil. I want an element in the HLT and the BK. Probably 5500W in the BK, Not sure about the HLT. I have a 2000W heat stick made (not planning on using). It's obviously slower and it seems to peak out around 160F. I'm guessing a 5500W element wouldn't hurt in both pots, except I couldn't run them at the same time. Can't think of why I would need to unless I was doing back to back batches.
 
passedpawn said:
Get the temp probe sight gauge from here and then a 1/2" to 1/4" reducer from Lowes. Then, an Auber 1/4" NPT temp probe will screw right in with some teflon thread tape. No problem. I've used 4" probes with this setup, but I think I'd go 6" next time.
Click to expand...

oh, and good news is I already own two of these! thanks!
 
I'm with you chefchris. I've got the SSR/PID/RTD but I need to hook it up. I will take some pictures of the wiring when I get it wired. My setup will be a RIMS-type vessel, a 5500w element and 2 outlets for pumps, etc. I suppose I need a 240v line in and a distribution block.

Anyone got an idea?
 
Photopilot said:
Here is my shopping list for my Boil Keg

  • 40 A SSR***Item# RS1A40D40 $19.00 USD
  • Heat Sink for 40A SSR Item# HS40 $18.50 USD
  • 1/16 DIN PID Temperature Controller Item# SYL-2352 $44.50 USD
  • Liquid tight RTD sensor, probe, 1/4 NPT Thread Item# PT100-L100NPT $32.55
Click to expand...

If you are on a budget and just want to control an electric boil kettle, you don't need a temp controller or a thermocouple/RTD:


edit: here's an less expensive alternative to Auber's liquid tight RTDs, $9 shipped:
1
http://cgi.ebay.com/Thermocouple-Temperature-Control-Sensor-Probe-PT100-NEW-/310214808732?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483a3e549c
 
passedpawn said:
Get the temp probe sight gauge from here and then a 1/2" to 1/4" reducer from Lowes. Then, an Auber 1/4" NPT temp probe will screw right in with some teflon thread tape. No problem. I've used 4" probes with this setup, but I think I'd go 6" next time.
Click to expand...

I like that solution. I'm just about to install my RTD in the HLT, and was thinking of going with a typical weldless bulkhead + reducer approach. Your idea will eliminate an extra hole for the site gauge! :ban:
 
Hurry up and get this done so I can come over and copy it! I know the guy that drew that diagram. I'll shoot him an email tonight with the link to this post and get his input. He's adding a HERMS to my HLT right now. Trying to get me to let him to change it to electric while its up there!!

EDIT!!! I just saw that PJ was the one that posted the diagram. He's the one I was talking about. :p
 
chefchris said:
ok, maybe it'll help a little more if I'm more specific. I'm doing a HERMS system. Using my old 25' IC as the coil. I want an element in the HLT and the BK. Probably 5500W in the BK, Not sure about the HLT. I have a 2000W heat stick made (not planning on using). It's obviously slower and it seems to peak out around 160F. I'm guessing a 5500W element wouldn't hurt in both pots, except I couldn't run them at the same time. Can't think of why I would need to unless I was doing back to back batches.
Click to expand...

I've done back-to-back 10g batches. I have a 5500 in my HLT and BK, but can't run both at the same time. Wasn't a big deal. I mash #2 during the #1 boil. There are a few waits in there, but not bad.
 
passedpawn said:
I've done back-to-back 10g batches. I have a 5500 in my HLT and BK, but can't run both at the same time. Wasn't a big deal. I mash #2 during the #1 boil. There are a few waits in there, but not bad.
Click to expand...

How did you mash #1 while boiling #2 without using both elements at the same time?
 
Chris, I will be back on a little later, I need to get about 10 miles in tonight on my Kaitai or I am going to be pissed. Id like to keep this going if you are around later.
 
klyph said:
WHAT?!

Damn, guess I need to buy an RTD now...
Click to expand...

Anyone with a thermocouple already, test this yourself by blowing some hot air into the back of the PID. Watch the temp on the display.

Or, just call Auber. They'll tell you the same. They told me not to get the thermocouple for this reason. If you believe that your PID won't get warm, go for it. But with my SSRs I know the temp goes up.
 
passedpawn said:
Anyone with a thermocouple already, test this yourself by blowing some hot air into the back of the PID. Watch the temp on the display.

Or, just call Auber. They'll tell you the same. They told me not to get the thermocouple for this reason. If you believe that your PID won't get warm, go for it. But with my SSRs I know the temp goes up.
Click to expand...

If I run it for a while until it gets to operating temp, then calibrate the thermocouple, will it be within an acceptable level of accuracy (+/- 1 deg)? Or is "operating temp" too broad a variable?
 
klyph said:
If I run it for a while until it gets to operating temp, then calibrate the thermocouple, will it be within an acceptable level of accuracy (+/- 1 deg)? Or is "operating temp" too broad a variable?
Click to expand...

That's a good question. I brew outside, so my "operating temp" can vary greatly. If your ambient temp doesn't change much (let's say you brew indoors) then I guess you are right, just adjust the pid once your box has heated up.
 
An RTD isn't really that much more expensive. I'd definitely go with one over a thermocouple. Also, you don't need to calibrate the RTD. So, with all the work you need to do already, why add another operation?
 
jjyoung said:
An RTD isn't really that much more expensive. I'd definitely go with one over a thermocouple. Also, you don't need to calibrate the RTD. So, with all the work you need to do already, why add another operation?
Click to expand...

Werd, I will be replacing it.
 
My PIDs are omega. I use K type thermocouples without a problem. Perhaps my control panel doesn't heat up like yours. I have a big control panel, 40 amp SSRs and big heat sinks. Do you think it is the Auber PID?
 
stevehaun said:
My PIDs are omega. I use K type thermocouples without a problem. Perhaps my control panel doesn't heat up like yours. I have a big control panel, 40 amp SSRs and big heat sinks. Do you think it is the Auber PID?
Click to expand...
Interesting.

I use the Auber Instruments PID and do not experience the difficulty mentioned. I think part of it is the design of the type 'K' temp probe. The thermal junction is the connection between two different wire compositions. Any additional connection along the electrical line from this probe can effect the accuracy of the measurement. Any dissimilar metal connection in either line then becomes another temp measurement point. If that connection is made inside the panel where large temperature swings are present - Well - there you go.

This is the reason that it is strongly recommended that a plug/socket connector set be used with type "K" probes. Whenever I do a setup, I order my temp probe with longer lines than I need. I use the plug/socket setup and make the interior connections with the line trimmed from the probe.

No problem for me yet.
 
P-J said:
Interesting.

I use the Auber Instruments PID and do not experience the difficulty mentioned. I think part of it is the design of the type 'K' temp probe. The thermal junction is the connection between two different wire compositions. Any additional connection along the electrical line from this probe can effect the accuracy of the measurement. Any dissimilar metal connection in either line then becomes another temp measurement point. If that connection is made inside the panel where large temperature swings are present - Well - there you go.

This is the reason that it is strongly recommended that a plug/socket connector set be used with type "K" probes. Whenever I do a setup, I order my temp probe with longer lines than I need. I use the plug/socket setup and make the interior connections with the line trimmed from the probe.

No problem for me yet.
Click to expand...

I use both the correct connector and wire for my box. I know what I'm talking about. Thermocouples are a problem for the Auber PIDs.
 
P-J said:
OK... No contest and none intended.

Your experience is far different than mine.
Click to expand...

Maybe my setup is screwed. I'm going to rebuild my control box in the near future and I will re-evaluate the temp sensors. Maybe I am wrong. I did talk to Auber after poor performance and they did tell me thermocouples are bad.

Put a hairdryer near your PID and tell me what happens.
 
jjyoung said:
An RTD isn't really that much more expensive. I'd definitely go with one over a thermocouple. Also, you don't need to calibrate the RTD. So, with all the work you need to do already, why add another operation?
Click to expand...

Don't need to calibrate? I've only ever used one RTD (the one I own right now) and I definitely had to calibrate it. When I attached it to my PID, it was reading off by 4*F in both icewater (36*F) as well as in boiling water (216*F).
 
passedpawn said:
---
Put a hairdryer near your PID and tell me what happens.
Click to expand...
Now that is beyond funny. I'm 70 and balder than an egg that has been just laid. You know - 'wet and slick'.! You think I have a "hair dryer"..?

I do have a heat gun for paint removal. I'll try that and let you know.

Still ROTFLMAO
ROTFLMAO.gif
 
Don't need to calibrate? I've only ever used one RTD (the one I own right now) and I definitely had to calibrate it. When I attached it to my PID, it was reading off by 4*F in both icewater (36*F) as well as in boiling water (216*F).
Click to expand...

That's unusual. How did you connect the RTD? Did you go through a bulkhead connector? Did you use the same type of wire all the way to the PID? If there's a difference in wire types, or it's wired incorrectly, you could easily get a 4*F error.

EDIT:
I've attached a link to a page on the Omega site. If the RTD is properly made it's characteristics should meet an industry standard. Therefore, if calibration is required it would be due to the sensor conditioning hardware, not the RTD. So it's possible that the specific controller you're using may require calibration. However, if the conditioner hardware is designed well then calibration shouldn't be necessary.

Description of RTDs/pdf/RTD_Gen_Specs_Ref.pdf
 
The 4*F was with the probe leads connected directly to the back of the PID with the little spade connectors that came attached to the probe when I bought it.

After that calibration, I lengthened the leads by splicing it onto a piece of CAT5, soldering that to the panel mount connector that Auber sells, and then using another short length of the CAT5 to run from the connector to the PID.

After doing all of that, the reading was off by an additional 1.5*F.
 

Similar threads

micraftbeer
BrewZilla RAPT Programming- Step to Target Temp
Replies
2
Views
2K
hungupdown
H
K
Old brew in keg, still safe/worth saving?
Replies
9
Views
492
barry.hastings
barry.hastings
C
Issue with Auber SYL-2342 PID Temperature Controller
Replies
4
Views
2K
Bsaladis
B
S
For Sale Indianapolis area - Brew in Basket full set up, lots of other stuff
Replies
9
Views
1K
stmicbarr
S
S
Lalbrew East Coast + High Attenuation + Hop Creep?
Replies
3
Views
944
sicktght311
S
Brewer's Friend 300

Latest posts

Back
Top