Phenols Phenols and more Phenols!

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klamz

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So I had my 3rd batch in a row with phenol off flavors/aromas. After the second batch I figured it was an infection and replaced all my plastics. It has now happened for a 3rd time. I did notice that at least 2 of these beers were taken out of the temp controlled fridge 10 days after fermentation and was left out in the heated garage with large temp swings. Now I know for the past 2 brews after fermentation was complete the temp of the conditioning beer hit about 75f for a good 12 hours and I noticed some bubbling action. Was the yeast reactivated and stressed? Could a spike to 74f for half a day really cause that?

OG of the brew is 1.050
I used London 1968 and fermented at 70f (looking for fruity esters)and wow did the primary fermentation smell fruity!

I recently got a malt mill and I crushed my grains at .36 setting
I sanitize with star san and there are no chlorines or chloramines in my well water. FYI I dont rack to secondary I just move the primary out of the fermentation fridge after its complete. I also do not aerate and just shake the carboy.


Any Ideas?
 
I forgot to mention that I washed yeast from one of the phenolic batches and created a yeast starter from it. MAN! did it stink like phenols! I tasted the starter wort and it was like water with hardly any flavor. It tasted like dirty sour dish water
 
Are you keeping your ferm chamber at 70 or keeping the beer at 70 while it's fermenting? Big difference. Moving the beer to 75 degrees several days after fermentation starts shouldn't be a problem. You just need to control the temp of the beer for the first few days.

Also, are you making a starter or just pitching the liquid yeast right in? Low pitch rates and high ferm temps make for a bad combo....
 
Are you keeping your ferm chamber at 70 or keeping the beer at 70 while it's fermenting? Big difference. Moving the beer to 75 degrees several days after fermentation starts shouldn't be a problem. You just need to control the temp of the beer for the first few days.

Also, are you making a starter or just pitching the liquid yeast right in? Low pitch rates and high ferm temps make for a bad combo....

This. Everything you just said!

If ambient temps are 70*F, the heat of fermentation can raise the temperature of the beer as high as 78*F (not always that high but I've seen it.)
 
I make 2 liter starters for all my beers and my fermentation temps are from the beer itself not the ambient temp.
 
"Phenols" covers a lot of territory. Can you be more specific about what you're tasting?


Well the taste comes through when the beer is carbonated so you can't tell until later on. It tastes like burnt plastic or bandaids. I guess it's an "ester" flavor that travels through the C02. The beer tastes good but the gas off is terrible.
 
This. Everything you just said!

If ambient temps are 70*F, the heat of fermentation can raise the temperature of the beer as high as 78*F (not always that high but I've seen it.)

No it's not that. The beer temp is 70 and ambient is much lower so I am totally baffled. Maybe its my yeast starters? I let them free ride in the house. They can get up to 74f at times. Should I be paying attention to yeast starter fermentation temps as well?
 
Well the taste comes through when the beer is carbonated so you can't tell until later on. It tastes like burnt plastic or bandaids. I guess it's an "ester" flavor that travels through the C02. The beer tastes good but the gas off is terrible.

That sounds like chlorophenols- maybe from chlorine or chloramine in the brewing water?

Another source of that unpleasant "band-aid" flavor can be contamination. I had that happen to me. I split a 10 gallon batch in half, and used two different packages of yeast. One was great, one tasted like burnt band-aids. I'm certain it was contamination in one.
 
That sounds like chlorophenols- maybe from chlorine or chloramine in the brewing water?

Another source of that unpleasant "band-aid" flavor can be contamination. I had that happen to me. I split a 10 gallon batch in half, and used two different packages of yeast. One was great, one tasted like burnt band-aids. I'm certain it was contamination in one.

Hmmmm it's not chlorine because I have well water. Ward labs reported no chlorines either. Soooooo I guess it's an infection. Could it be the bults in my brew kettle? they get scummy and get a lot of junk around the bults that are holding the handle inside of the kettle above the boil line. Maybe there is some kinda growth going in there and it just infects the beer as it comes out after chilling? I always thought that during the boil it would kill everything in the kettle even though it doesnt touch the boiling wort.

I do the same thing with my yeast starters. I just clean the 2liter flask very well and add water to boil. I never sanitize it. Is this poor sanitation? Should i sanitize the flask before adding starter water?
 
Rule #1:
Sanitize! Sanitize! Sanitize!

We just ordered 4 gallons of Start San. It should last us about a year. We soak everything including hands, yeast packs, sissors that might think about touching any wort (including the starter wort). We cover any opeanings immediately with a paper towel soaked in Star San ( We call it the Dave Rag). Works foe us.
 
How are you chilling the wort? I just cleaned out a ton of crap from my plate chiller. Had a recent problem w phenols as well, hopefully I found the source.
 
It has happened to three batches in a row so unless you really don't sanitize at all it may not be infection. From the start, what are you mashing in and what temp? Any chance the wort already has picked up this smell/taste before the boil? Same recipe and yeast strain in all batches? When transferring the wort to the fermenter, is the hose used sterile and without cracks or blemishes where nasties can hide?
 
It has happened to three batches in a row so unless you really don't sanitize at all it may not be infection. From the start, what are you mashing in and what temp? Any chance the wort already has picked up this smell/taste before the boil? Same recipe and yeast strain in all batches? When transferring the wort to the fermenter, is the hose used sterile and without cracks or blemishes where nasties can hide?

I mash in at 150f usually. These are all different batches with different yeasts. No hoses are used. I just poor the chilled wort through a sanitized funnel into the sanitized fermenter. I chill to 65f with an immersion chiller in 10 minutes.
 
If it is a water issue (cloramines) then treating your water with campden tablets with help if not cure issue. 1/4 tab is good for every 5-10 gallons. Had issue in past. Haven't had since using the campden. Unfortunately, could be yeast also which makes u SOL. But 3 in a row?!!? Stop using that yeast. Clean/ sanitize. Consider changing out any plastic pieces in your process- particularly post-boil (tubes, buckets, paddles, etc)?
And lower that temp! Gotta keep in mind that fermentation temp can be anywhere from a few degrees warmer up to 8 degrees than ambient temp! So if ideal germ temp is a max of 68, u really should try to keep your batch no warmer than 65 ambient. After a couple of days is it creeps up to 68 it's not a problem as the heat being created by the yeast isn't as much.
 
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