Phase 2 brewery build progress shots

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kladue

kladue

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You might consider looking for a ph transmitter on ebay that has all the necessary circuitry and outputs a voltage or current signal. How are you doing your application? What language, and have you had to custom write the whole thing? Our next step is to load the application on the touch screen panel pc mounted in the panel door and connect it to the site wireless network. Future software enhancements include making the integrated panel PC a server for a custom Java applet that shows the status of the hardware. Web served to any PC with internet connection. Additionaly, we are considering the addition of a networked security camera to observe the system remotely.
 

John Beere

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Thanks for the info. I sent you a Private Message... The GUI was written and compiled in VB. The API to the device was provided by LabJack. I built a dedicated MiniITX / Atom based PC that my test bed is running from. I haven't got to it yet, but it will definitely be web-enabled for realtime monitoring.

It seems as if you are trying to automate the entire brewery where my app only automates the mash - although I pretty much have the rest of my brewery automated if you look through the projects in my signature...
 

John Beere

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Ph probes generate a voltage in response to solution Ph (Hydrogen Ions), but you need a temperature compensation circuit to compensate for voltage increase with temperature. Watch for a Ph probe with built in pre-amp as that would save a lot of time and engineering, still would need temp compensation to correct probe output that would work with rtd's. Most of the Ph & ORP probes i have worked with use 100, 1000, or 3000 ohm rtd's for built in temperature sensor.
I'm sorry to hijack your thread. LabJack actually has two different amps they sell but here is their response from my query on if they would work with a PH electrode.

"The LJTIA uses the AD623 from Analog Devices which has an input impedance of 2 Gohms and input bias current of 17 nA. The PGA204 used on the EI-1040 shows 10 Gohms and 0.5 nA.

So the LJTIA is pretty close to the EI-1040, but I am not real confident that either would work."

Any thoughts?

Somebody by this man a membership already!
 
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kladue

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I will have to check the manuals for the rosemount and abb ph transmitters to see what the circuit specs are for the ph probe pre amps and get back to you. Have you obtained a ph probe yet?, or are you still shopping. Nice looking application you have there, i am in this as a hobby and have no interest in going beyond keg mods and gadgets for club members.
 

John Beere

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I don't know where it will lead at this point - I just like to keep my options open. No, I haven't yet purchased a probe but I have researched several to the best of my abilities - which are limited. For now, beta #1 will just have a placeholder for the PH probe, but I would really like to add it so its statistics can be tracked along with the rest of the info that is collected.

**EDIT** here is the probe that I was looking at: http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=5900165
 
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It would be a bit easier to obtain a probe-transmitter combination as calibration and a reasonably accurate result would be possible without a lot of engineering effort. When you get the probe installed there are two things to consider, will the probe tip dry out (not good) and can the probe be removed and the tip stored in the silver chloride salt solution to maintain cell conductivity when not in use.
 
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kladue

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Here are a couple tables you will need if you are going to roll your own interface to the Ph Probe Picasa Web Albums - Kevin - Ph Info. As you can see from the second table the temperature of the probe influences the voltage, you would need to either build in a software routine to linearize the output or build a temperature compensation circuit. Good luck with your project, will be interesting to see the results.
 

John Beere

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Thank you for the info! Since I will know the exact mash temp, I believe I can create an algorithm that takes it all into consideration. I just emailed this info to the engineer as well - will keep you posted on our progress.
 
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Here are a few shots of the self contained cooling system for the phase 2 brewery project Picasa Web Albums - Kevin - Cooling system. The water chillers are sunroc 6 gph remote water fountain chillers from a building remodel project, circulated with a march MDXT-3 pump. The circulaing system serves both counterflow chiller and future carboy cooling system planned for phase 3 of the brewery build. Next step is to wake the frankenstein brewing system and tune the boiler and steam mixer PID loops before mash test run. The software is the holdup as it is being modified to incorporate code for sequential brewing (mashing next batch while boiling previous batch) and including interlocks to prevent surprises.
 

slnies

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Kladue,
That there be an excellent idea for cooling. I, myself was planning something similar using a dehumidifier to chill a tank of coolant and then build jackets for my carboys or fermenters, but the water fountain chiller idea is a stroke of brilliance. Thanks for the insight. S.
 

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What made you choose to use an inline steam mixer over a manifold within the boil kettle? I'm in the process of building an electric system in which steam will be used to heat the mash and I'm trying to decide which direction to go. Also, what is the diffuser that you are using for your steam? Thanks.
 
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Well, 5 years ago I built the predecessor to the phase 2 system and refined the steam injection into circulating wort process. Here is a picture of the new mixerPicasa Web Albums - Kevin - New system st..., steam comes through tube to exit through screen wire diffuser into wort flowing over screen, steam condenses and raises liquid temperature. The state of the art when the old system was built was the direct injection of steam into the mash tun or electric element rims systems. Both methods had control and quality issues so I went and copied the industrial steam into liquid injection system to greatly increase the amount of heat that could be introduced to wort without overheating the liquid. The old system is able to give you a 35 degree temperature rise across the mixer at 50 GPH flow with outlet temperature of 156 deg. F.. The same flash boiler provides strike water, steam for steps, and sparge water, only drawback is constant attention to gas flow control for temperature control. If you look through the public gallery you should find pictures of the old system which breaks down to components that hang on garage wall.
 

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How do you control the flow of steam in your inline system (do you use a solenoid valve)? To control the temperature of the wort are you adjusting the wort's flow rate as well. More to the point, what variables are being adjusted to reach the desired temperature of the wort?

Did you purchase your screen diffuser or was that something that you made?
 
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In the steam injection system the wort and water flow to the boiler are constant, the burner firing rate is adjusted to control steam generation and mixer temperature. If one used a steam source you could use a needle valve to control flow to the diffuser screen to control temperature, manually not expensive, proportional needle valve might be a bit pricey for automatic control. The diffuser is stainless screen wire rolled over a 1/8" rod and silver soldered to the end of a 1/4" tube which is inserted in a 1/2" tube carrying the wort.
 

onejdn

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Damn, I'm impressed. I am thinking of building a system soon and was trying to decide on which one to build...now I'm really confused. Awesome
 
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Ther have been a few more changes to the exhaust system to boost exhaust flow to handle vapor from boil kettle. Working on electrical and plumbing systems to prep inside for insulation and sheetrock next, then back to final loop tuning and first grain run. System is still ugly without insulation and SS keggle covering, that is the next project after interior prep for cold weather.
 

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i laughed out loud at the willy wonka machine comment, that was great made my day and i would love to have one, but i am a framer and not an electrician i dont know anything about it.
 
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kladue

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Almost finished with automatic operation software and GUI, testing, and tuning last of pid loops, then on to a test run with malt. Last item to build and automate is hop addition hardware, building second panel with touch screen and more opto hardware to control hop additions and fermenter temperature. Second panel pushes point count to around 60 analog/digital points which should be enough for now.
 
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WIll be back to testing this weekend after finishing plumbing and electrical installation, and revisions to propane and water fill tubing. It has taken a while to code the necessary calculations and sequence of events to achieve automatic operation of the equipment. From recipe entries of malt Lbs, water ratio, 1st step temperature, the system calculates strike water volume and temperaures needed. Malt conveyor, mill, and stir system are fired when strike water has been delivered to mash tun and circulating pump cycled to preheat system. Step mashing is done with a steam RIMS system with steps and durations entered in recipe screen. From stike water to final volume the sparge water volume is calculated and flow and temperature are controlled to get 40 minute sparge. Boil kettle is fired when level reaches 1 gallon and boil is detected by boil kettle temperature measurements, hop and boil timers are started, and hop additions made to recipe schedule. Cooling system is fired when sparge is completed and CFC wort chiller outlet temp and O2 injection time is set to recipe entries. The goal is to have system operate safely with minimal operator input and achieve predictable and repeatable results. Total system footprint so far is 4' X 8', something that would fit in a single car garage, with vented combustion from boiler and kettle indoor operation is practical.
 
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kladue

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Have been all grain since 1995, do most of the AHA styles for competition and have judged and ran sanctioned competitions. Latest system is an automated version of the steam rims system built in 2003 where the system design and opertional information was developed. Target batch size is 6 gallons to fit glass carboys, with 10 gallon batch size as upper limit of current mash tun capacity.
 
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kladue

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Here are some updated pictures of the system taken during the loop testing of the steam injection RIMS portion of the phase 2 system Picasa Web Albums - Kevin - System Testin... . Next step is trial run with malt to finish system loop tuning and prepare for automatic control test run. Have the plumbing and electrical done, next is insulation and interior finish then finish mash and boil keggles with ceramic insulation and SS jackets. Might have to put construction on hold again if company sends me back to chandler arizona again for another 9 months.
 

85 Haro Designs

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I'm going to be honest here.

I believe I'm a reasonably intelligent guy but reading the "back and forth" b/w Kladue and John Beere made me feel like a 3 year old child listening to two adults talk about their jobs.

Steven Hawking makes more sense to me.

That rig is AMAZING!
 

bendavanza

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I agree with 85 Haro.
Beautiful setup and definitely something you'd need to go to college in order to understand and build. The control panel gives me a headache just looking at it.
amazing build, I'd like to see a video when you get it going.
-Ben
 

rdwj

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That is one of the coolest things I've ever seen.

I have no idea how it works and what 3/4 of that stuff is for, but that doesn't make it any less impressive. I need to see a video.
 
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Should resume system testing this weekend, what would be worth recording? dough in, step mash heating, sparge and transfer to boil, wort cooling.
 

Crash

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That is truly ridiculous (in the coolest sense of the word) -- When I started extract brewing i thought it was so simple & fun I couldn't believe it. This is anything but simple and may be fun in an erector set kind of way. While you're at it, could you build me giant robot that mows the lawn, listens to my wife talk about her day and pisses beer? It looks like you're well on your way. Very cool.
PS -- Check out the Terminator TV series if you need any ideas.
 
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As to your request, item 1 already commercialy available, item 2 in long term research phase (been at it 33 years and still have not come up with a viable design yet), item 3 to many delivery options already available, need to narrow choices.
 

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Truly fantastic....I don't think there's a more sophisticated system.....I mean, there's some close seconds....but you, Sir, have delivered the Tiger Punch to my Ha-Do-Ken. I mean, it's compact (big plus, even if you have the space); incorporates a highly sophisticated, rarely seen, and incredibly effective flash boiler; and uses some circuitry most DIY'ers WISH they thought of. Function balanced with beauty is an incredible thing.

But I gotta wonder.....when are you gonna throw some pink stuff between those studs and finish the room? :D
 
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Going to try and do what I can between now and March 1, will be going back to run another instrument install job at Intel ocotillo campus until next year. Another year in an extended stay suite, oh well more time to write more operating code,design other projects, and purchase more equipment. Will have company truck again with tools and parts, might see if anybody in phoenix area needs help with their brewing rigs on the weekends.
 

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Truly fantastic....I don't think there's a more sophisticated system.....I mean, there's some close seconds....but you, Sir, have delivered the Tiger Punch to my Ha-Do-Ken. I mean, it's compact (big plus, even if you have the space); incorporates a highly sophisticated, rarely seen, and incredibly effective flash boiler; and uses some circuitry most DIY'ers WISH they thought of. Function balanced with beauty is an incredible thing.

But I gotta wonder.....when are you gonna throw some pink stuff between those studs and finish the room? :D
Suck up! LOL!:tank:
 
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Might look at that for phase 3 when the automated batch prep system is built to measure, weigh, and transport malt to hopper, and run independently temperature controlled fermenters. Currently working on control software code and graphics for use on an Advantech touch screen computer. Target is to be able to develop recipe and control parameters on touch screen or import from Promash and turn over operation to control program while working on other brewing activities. With temporary work relocation I have evenings and weekends for software development to fill the time.
 
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