PH Questions

[Atek]

Ok, so I started a 5gal batch of Schramms sweet mead using clover honey. I took a ph reading when I started and I'm not sure what to think. My PH strips will read from 2.8 up to 4.4 and shows from light green to dark blueish green. The indicator itself is a pale blue. What gets me is that the ph indicator never changed color. I mean it did get darker at first due to being wet but it did not match anything on the indicator chart. I'd like to start this thread to help myself and others know what to do when this happens. Or what options are available. I used a D-47 yeast and it is fermenting, not as quickly as other batches I've done but I've never used D-47 before. Suggestions and comments/discussion about PH would be most welcome.

 

[malkore]

1. Schramm is a smart guy.
2. I never mess wit pH tests in mead
3. degas the primary...that'll keep the pH from dropping due to carbonic acid
4. staggered nutrient additions, per Schramm
5. pH strips are notoriously inaccurate. any slight humidity exposure ruins them. More than likely your pH is not in the 2.8 to 4.4 range, which seems pretty acidic for mead making (yeast can't tolerate a high acid environment).

star-san is an acid sanitizer that does its deal around pH 3.0

 

[Atek]

Interesting, well degassing and SNA are my standards so no worries there. So what is the preposed common pH for mead and/or the optimal pH for fermentation? (obviously I haven't finished the book yet, just got it as birthday present

 

[WheresOurFish]

Interesting, well degassing and SNA are my standards so no worries there. So what is the preposed common pH for mead and/or the optimal pH for fermentation? (obviously I haven't finished the book yet, just got it as birthday present

From the various sources I've seen on the Internet, most seem to agree that 3.8 is a good pH to aim for. I've seen ranges listed between 3.7 and 4.4, so there is a bit of room for movement. I have a digital pH meter, and have had ferments drop to about 3.4 before any noticable slowing of activity. Even then, as Malkore mentioned, a bit of aeration in the primary can definitely help keep things in check. There's lots of information about aerating and SNA, so make sure you pay attention to that, because you don't want to aerate too late in the ferment.

Hope that helps.

 

[fatbloke]

From the various sources I've seen on the Internet, most seem to agree that 3.8 is a good pH to aim for. I've seen ranges listed between 3.7 and 4.4, so there is a bit of room for movement. I have a digital pH meter, and have had ferments drop to about 3.4 before any noticable slowing of activity. Even then, as Malkore mentioned, a bit of aeration in the primary can definitely help keep things in check. There's lots of information about aerating and SNA, so make sure you pay attention to that, because you don't want to aerate too late in the ferment.

Hope that helps.

A million and one theories on this. As far as I can see, it doesn't matter too much what the pH is, as long as it's not affecting the fermentation. Yes, yeast does seem to prefer an acidic environment, though what the exact pH reading would be for a specific strain of yeast might be, I don't know. Just that we have learned that if it does drop below about 3.0pH, then it's likely to cause fermentation issues with the yeast. It's relatively unlikely that you'll get the opposite i.e. high pH. Plus the production of various acids during the ferment can cause the pH to swing quite wildly. Plus you'd probably find that the pH of a must prior to the start of the ferment, would be quite (surprisingly) low, but often in the right area i.e. 3.4 to 3.8 pH.

Oh and yes, I certainly agree that the pH strips don't really seem to be accurate enough for meads, a pocket sized pH meter is probably the best bet and they're usually relatively cheap....

regards

fatbloke

p.s. tannins and acids can be used to mask excessive sweetness after the ferment has finished and are often added a little at a time, to taste.....

 

[coax]

Since you're using Schramm, try his titration method, page 68. It takes a bit more effort but it's not hard, I don't even bother converting it, just log how much NaOH it takes, 5.5-6.5 mL is typical for me though I've had a few that took less. Much better than trying to read a litmus strip.

 

[truckjohn]

PH is the wrong tool for weak organic acids in fermented beverages.... It doesn't actually correlate to the TA - titratable acidity that we measure when making wine.... TA is a better measure, because it tells you something about the amount of acid you have in your must.... If we were using solutions of Hydrochloric or Nitric - PH would be the perfect tool....

But.. On your ph strips - if they don't do anything, it's because your PH is outside the limits of the strip... This is why those sort of kits usually come with several different sets of strips...

Thanks

 

[pkeeler]

A is a better measure, because it tells you something about the amount of acid you have in your must.... If we were using solutions of Hydrochloric or Nitric - PH would be the perfect tool....

TA does not work with honey, it is useless with mead.

 

[pkeeler]

Ok, so I started a 5gal batch of Schramms sweet mead using clover honey. I took a ph reading when I started and I'm not sure what to think. My PH strips will read from 2.8 up to 4.4 and shows from light green to dark blueish green. The indicator itself is a pale blue. What gets me is that the ph indicator never changed color. I mean it did get darker at first due to being wet but it did not match anything on the indicator chart. I'd like to start this thread to help myself and others know what to do when this happens. Or what options are available. I used a D-47 yeast and it is fermenting, not as quickly as other batches I've done but I've never used D-47 before. Suggestions and comments/discussion about PH would be most welcome.

Your starting pH will be high. Think of it this way, you are blending honey with a pH around 3.8-4.4 with water, with a pH of 7, usually 1:2-1:4. The resulting pH will be higher than the range on your strips.

Now, if your water is weakly buffered, like mine, it will fall pretty quickly. If your water is good for brewing light colored beers with no dilution, then your traditional meads will probably drop in pH to under 3.2 within 48 hours. You can add chalk or potassium carbonate to get it back up to 3.8ish. The key is that they drop over time, not when mixing. This is something I was confused with at first as Schramm kind of implies your mixture should have a 3.8 pH. But the fact he doesn't discuss at all how to lower the pH of a mead must pre-fermentation is a give away that it is a red herring to check the pH of your newly created must. Check at 48 hrs, or if your water is good for amber-dark beers, you can probably not worry unless the bubbling stops.

 

[pkeeler]

Since you're using Schramm, try his titration method, page 68. It takes a bit more effort but it's not hard, I don't even bother converting it, just log how much NaOH it takes, 5.5-6.5 mL is typical for me though I've had a few that took less. Much better than trying to read a litmus strip.

I'm sure in the next edition of that book, all references to TA testing and mead will be removed.

http://www.making-mead.com/forum/showthread.php?p=72637

 

[coax]

http://www.making-mead.com/forum/showthread.php?p=72637

That's interesting, though he says "White ... devised a new method of measuring TA in honey that bypassed the reaction." Any info on what that method might be?

 

[pkeeler]

I haven't seen where anyone has elaborated on that. Probably because the current wisdom of the mead guys is that the role of acid in mead is different than the role of acid in wine. It is more of a flavor component in mead; whereas in wine it contributes structure. In other words, the gluconic acid in mead is just not in wine and the balancing of acids in wine making is not important or relevant to mead making. White wine making is a decent starting point for mead making, but in some ways, mead is unique, and this is one way.

 

[coax]

I was mostly logging the TA readings for future reference, but if it doesn't correlate... one less thing to do. Still, I'd be interested in at least knowing what this other method is, just because it's nice to have some numbers to go along with your subjective tasting notes. In any case, I'll continue tasting a sample at bottling time and if it seems flat, throw in a spoonful of acid blend.

 

[MedsenFey]

Dan McFeely is the expert on gluconolactone over at GotMead. He outlined the process in MLD (in the archive over there) and I've linked it HERE. It is worth noting that there is now an enzymatic method for determining gluconic acid and lactone.

And yes, you will find that you are much better off making acid adjustments based on taste than by trying to dial in a specific TA number. That may hold true with wines as well, but such post fermentation acid additions are often prohibited for commercial producers.