PH Meter recs

[undergroundbrewer]

Hey all,

I've been brewing for quite some time, but never really got around to checking the PH figuring using RO water would give me a decent base. While I've never had an issue with my beer, I know there's always room for improvement. Any suggestions on PH meters you've had good luck with?

TIA!

 

[bracconiere]

i still like my manual MW-101. still haven't NOT been able to calibrate it, because some auto cal wouldn't work. just whip out the jewelery screw driver, and set it myself....

 

[IslandLizard]

When using RO water, she's a blank slate, you really don't need a pH meter. Just use a water calculator such as Bru'nwater or Brewer's Friend. There are others.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

pH meters can make a great gift. (Gift a spreadsheet? ).

And some day, one may want to try brewing with their tap water.

So what are people using for pH meters in late 2020?

 

[undergroundbrewer]

pH meters can make a great gift. (Gift a spreadsheet? ).

And some day, one may want to try brewing with their tap water.

So what are people using for pH meters in late 2020?

Ultimately I'm trying to minimize "obstacles" when it comes to brewing, and currently one of those obstacles involves multiple trips to get supplies (02, propane, RO, etc.). I'm having a gas line moved so I can eliminate one of those trips, and if I can brew with my filtered tap (in a controlled fashion) that would eliminate one more stop for me. I do recognize I can get an RO set up at home, but that's pricey and involves far more (expensive) filter changes than I care to deal with at this moment.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Any suggestions on PH meters you've had good luck with?

I have been using an Apera pH60 handheld meter for two years now. It pushed my Hach Pocket Pro Plus to backup status while my venerable Hanna 98128 is now in "retired" status I use it for brewing and checking the water treatment systems in my primary and second home - both have acid neutralizers due to low pH well water, and I like to keep an eye on them as both houses are totally plumbed with copper.

Quite a few HBTers are using the pH60, though the MW101/MW102 may have more users here (those two have been around for years).
Replacement sensors for the pH60 are relatively cheap compared to many meters, a big draw for me.

You might ask a moderator to move this thread to the Brew Sciences forum as that's where this type of question gets lots of experienced responses - and you can find a lot of prior discussions on meters...

Cheers!

 

[Gozie Boy]

I have a pH60 meter kit, which appears to be a solid system. Two-point calibration is straight-forward and simple. Not being an expert in this operation, however, I do have a few questions I have always wanted to ask more experienced meter users:

1) How do you know that the sensor needs replacing, and roughly how frequently have you found it necessary to replace it?
2) Do you always calibrate before each brew day? I assume so, and have done so, but it does take some additional time and effort. (I do rinse in distilled water and keep it stored in the brine solution).
3) I have seen people using the meter right in the MT and BK, when the temp is clearly outside the recommended range (0-50C). Is this ok, or should you remove and cool the samples? Related to this, does the temperature correction feature sufficiently adjust pH, or do you need to get the sample to a certain temp to get the best results?
4) I have also experienced many times where the pH reading slowly drifts during measurement, to the point where I am not sure when I have reached a representative reading (regardless of the smiley face status).

Sorry if this is swerves a little from the OP's question, but since we're here, I just had to ask! Thx

 

[Bramling Cross]

I'm still using my MW-102.

When I found out that Thermoworks makes a pH meter, I jumped at that. Their Thermopens are amazing and I trusted that a Thermoworks pH meter would be every bit as good.

I was wrong.

The Thermoworks pH meter isn't a Thermoworks product. It's a generic Chinese meter that Thermoworks re-sells on the Thermoworks website. In fact, it's such a lazy re-sell that Thermoworks didn't even bother to place their name on the meter, write a comprehensible manual, or include any Thermoworks documents. Morebeer sells the same form factor pH meter in a different color and other examples are easily found on Amazon. They're all less expensive than the Thermoworks offering. So that we're clear, Thermoworks decided to re-sell a generic meter that they neither designed nor manufactured and they're leveraging their good name to charge a premium for this generic meter.

And that would be okay if it measured up to the quality of their Thermopens. It doesn't. On the first day that I used it, it calibrated easily enough but showed a pronounced offset from my MW-102 and I was unable to dial out a stubborn drift. This necessitated multiple recalibrations during my first brew day. On the following day it refused to calibrate. It likely needs a new probe, but I have no appetite for throwing good money after bad.

Avoid the Thermoworks 8689 pH meter.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]
1) How do you know that the sensor needs replacing, and roughly how frequently have you found it necessary to replace it?

Basically, replace the sensor when it won't calibrate properly - or when it's physically broken
I managed to shatter the sensor bulb within a few months. Fortunately the replacement sensor via Amazon was $29 delivered - and not the $85 + S&H for replacing my Hach's sensor a couple years earlier (ouch).

2) Do you always calibrate before each brew day? I assume so, and have done so, but it does take some additional time and effort. (I do rinse in distilled water and keep it stored in the brine solution).

I usually do a full calibration if it's been more than a couple of weeks since the last one. I would also do a cal if the readings seem hinky, but that's never occurred with this unit (aside from the broken sensor thing). The unit will keep an eye on its response and if it thinks there's something illogical going on will drop the corresponding calibration(s) which should force you to do a cal cycle.

fwiw, I don't know what "brine" refers to but you should store the unit using Apera's 3M saturated KCL storage solution or equivalent.

3) I have seen people using the meter right in the MT and BK, when the temp is clearly outside the recommended range (0-50C). Is this ok, or should you remove and cool the samples? Related to this, does the temperature correction feature sufficiently adjust pH, or do you need to get the sample to a certain temp to get the best results?

I would not (and do not) test at any temperature you'd find in a hot tun or kettle. I always chill samples to within a few degrees of 70°F.

4) I have also experienced many times where the pH reading slowly drifts during measurement, to the point where I am not sure when I have reached a representative reading (regardless of the smiley face status).

I would make sure the sensor is clean - there are a couple of Apera cleaning solutions available.

Cheers!

 

[Gozie Boy]

Thanks, DT, just what I wanted. (By "brine", that was just my shorthand for the KCL salt solution.)

 

[Birrofilo]

I use an Xs PH5

It has a number of characteristics that made it appealing to me:

First and foremost, the sensor can be stored dry. Actually, dry storing is the recommended storage method. Before use, it must be "resuscitated" with tap water.
Dry storage is very important to me, because those instruments are pretty expensive and brewing is not something that happens continuously in one's life, usage is discontinuous, and forgetting the pHmeter in a closet, just to discover in six months time that its head got dried and damaged and must be replaced, would be quite annoying.

It has a very good accuracy (0,01 pH) and a very good resolution (0,01 pH). It also has a very large measuring range for temperature, with a very good accuracy, but I don't count that because I follow the general guideline that a pH meter will not live long if it is stressed with high temperture: cool down your sample before measuring.

It can use both normal batteries and NiMH accumulators.

It has three calibration points (neutral - acid, and neutral - basic), the sensor is replaceable and, as most such instruments, it is also very water resistant (IP 67).

I searched a lot for various pH meters but I found that they were either too expensive, or cheap and unrealiable (either because they broke fast, or because there was a high defectiveness in production). This is a real laboratory instrument at a decent cost (€120 two years ago, decent cost if it lasts long that is, as I fervently hope).

Tester pH 5 KIT

PS It also has a mV measurement but I have no idea what I could use it for.

 

[hinkensj]

First and foremost, the sensor can be stored dry. Actually, dry storing is the recommended storage method.

Curious why this comes with a storage solution if you say it is stored dry, I checked the documentation on the website and it doesn’t say anything about storage–wet, dry, ,or otherwise...

 

[Birrofilo]

Curious why this comes with a storage solution if you say it is stored dry, I checked the documentation on the website and it doesn’t say anything about storage–wet, dry, ,or otherwise...

I doesn't come actually with a storage solution (at least not my kit) but that means nothing, the dry storage is recommended for long-term storage. If you use it in everyday lab operations, you keep it in storage solution. If you put it apart, you rinse it with water and store it dry. When you want to use it again, you have to "revive" the sensor with 30 minutes immersion (water or storage solution).

The Manual, Italian version, page 11, says:

- Prima della misura sciacquare il sensore con acqua distillata.
- Stoccaggio per brevi periodi -> immerso in soluzione Storage.
- Stoccaggio per lunghi periodi -> conservare a secco.
- Non stoccare il sensore di pH in acqua distillata

Short period: Storage solution;
Long period: dry (avoid distilled water).

 

[cmac62]

To revive this thread has anyone ever used one of these: https://www.amazon.com/CAMWAY-Digit...ers+camway&qid=1625252439&s=industrial&sr=1-5

Seems like it would work, but... I'd like some feedback prior to clicking "add to Cart" Thanks

 

[IslandLizard]

To revive this thread has anyone ever used one of these: https://www.amazon.com/CAMWAY-Digit...ers+camway&qid=1625252439&s=industrial&sr=1-5

Seems like it would work, but... I'd like some feedback prior to clicking "add to Cart" Thanks

"Automatic Calibration: Features a three-point calibration, the PH Water Pen could automatically identify the calibration solutions of PH 4.00, PH 6.86 and PH 9.18"

Those pH6.86 and pH9.18 are not common calibration references. You may have to buy those solutions/pillows from the company selling the meter.
I seriously doubt you can change the calibration targets inside the meter to accommodate more common ones (7.00 and 10.00).

 

[cmac62]

"Automatic Calibration: Features a three-point calibration, the PH Water Pen could automatically identify the calibration solutions of PH 4.00, PH 6.86 and PH 9.18"

Those pH6.86 and pH9.18 are not common calibration references. You may have to buy those solutions/pillows from the company selling the meter.
I seriously doubt you can change the calibration targets inside the meter to accommodate more common ones (7.00 and 10.00).

How long can you keep/store the Cal solutions? They come in powder and you add this to 250 ml of DW. Can you keep them is sealed jars and use multiple times? Thanks

 

[IslandLizard]

How long can you keep/store the Cal solutions? They come in powder and you add this to 250 ml of DW. Can you keep them is sealed jars and use multiple times? Thanks

This is what I understand from the various discussions in the Brew Science forum.

Yes, the mixed calibration solutions should be kept in well sealed plastic bottles, not sure if glass can be used, I've never seen them stored in glass. Keep 'em away from heat and strong (sun)light.

The pH 4 and pH 7 calibration solutions should be good for at least a year, perhaps 5 years or longer.
I use professional calibration solutions that are over 5 years old, with the same result as a brand new one, on a 0.01 pH accurate meter. The expiration date on the bottles is 1 year from manufacture closed, and 6 months after opening. Go figure.

I use (old) 35mm film canisters to dispense the calibration stock solution into. They also have fairly tight caps, so they can be saved as such. Any small bottle or container will do.

The pH 10 (or pH 9.18 in your case) solution, however, will carbonate, picking up CO2 from the air and lose accuracy over time, depending on how many times that bottle gets opened and how much headspace is in there. You could nitrogen flush it after each use to purge most air and thus CO2.

The good news is, when the meter is used in brewing, you rarely ever need accurate readings (far) above pH 7. Since you're only measuring in the pH 7 and below range, no need to even calibrate the 3rd (pH 10) point, especially with cheaper class meters.

Don't pay too much attention to the large advertised temp range. pH readings should typically be done at laboratory temps (25C/77F) , and it helps if it has ATC (automatic temperature compensation) for the few degrees up or down from the calibration temp.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...d-temp-corrected-readings.635517/post-8095944and other posts in that thread.

There's also a sticky on which pH meters have passed AJ's stability test.
I have the feeling many (cheaper) meters and probes are sourced from only a few manufacturers, probably in China.

BTW, that meter has 0.05 pH accuracy, but 0.01 pH resolution (the read out).

Probes don't like to be immersed in hot solutions unless they're made for that. In most brew calculators measurements at lab or room temp pH is assumed.

 

[cmac62]

Thanks, I can chill it in a SS pot or something pretty quickly in the air. Thanks for the quick response.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks, I can chill it in a SS pot or something pretty quickly in the air. Thanks for the quick response.

I use a frozen shot glass. it chills it down quickly.
You only need about 1/2 oz to an oz of liquid when testing your mash, after stirring, or draw a sample from the center of the tun with a cup or a baster.