pH meter recommendations, please?

[Tobor_8thMan]

The article

pH Meter Recommendations | Bru'n Water

Although using Bru'n Water reduces the need for checking mash pH, it is still useful to have a good pH meter available to double check things. Here are some thoughts for those of you interested in buying a meter. A quality meter and probe are desirable, but high quality often comes with a high pric

www.brunwater.com

states " All mash pH measurement should be performed at room-temperature to avoid the measurement errors created by the temperature effects on the probe and chemically in the mash. " IMO, what a PITA. Is this really necessary for the MW 102? (Getting the sample to room temp?) If so, what a tremendous waste of time for each test.

 

[day_trippr]

[shrug] In the course of a brew day I typically perform five pH checks (mash: 20, 40, 60 minutes, last runnings from fly sparging, then an all-in boil kettle check. I have a pair of Sam Adams tasting glasses (from the Jamaica Plain facility), and I set up a soup bowl of ice water on a saucer on the bench.

When I draw a small sample with one of the glasses (well under an ounce - just enough to submerge the pH sensor) I stick it in the ice water and find something else to do for the time it takes to drop into the low 70s. Which isn't long, maybe five minutes if I don't swirl the glass, a minute or so if I do.

It really isn't onerous, there are plenty of brew day actions to interleave with the cool-down sampling times...

Cheers!

 

[couchsending]

The article

pH Meter Recommendations | Bru'n Water

Although using Bru'n Water reduces the need for checking mash pH, it is still useful to have a good pH meter available to double check things. Here are some thoughts for those of you interested in buying a meter. A quality meter and probe are desirable, but high quality often comes with a high pric

www.brunwater.com

states " All mash pH measurement should be performed at room-temperature to avoid the measurement errors created by the temperature effects on the probe and chemically in the mash. " IMO, what a PITA. Is this really necessary for the MW 102? (Getting the sample to room temp?) If so, what a tremendous waste of time for each test.

Jesus you’re a hard person to please.

The probe on any pH meter will fail much faster if testing at mash pH temps.

Simply take 20ml of wort and pit it in a cold water bath for 5 minutes and it should be cooled down close to room temps.

You should do this with any meter. Cheap or spendy.

 

[augiedoggy]

We use a milwaukee 102 meter at the brew pub. At first I was not impressed but then I discovered I had a poor probe and after buying a better replacement for $40 on amazon its been rock solid for almost a year now. (we do always run our samples under cold water to cool as mentioned above)
As far as the cheaper one piece meters, We have used a handful including the hannas and honestly I found the $10 no name red and yellow ones seem work as well but you have to keep the probes wet. (we use these for our sours) The milwaukee is more stable requiring less calibrations.

I did just buy more calibration solution and found this to be a good value,

pH Calibration Solution Combo: 1 x pH 4.01Buffer Solution 220 ml 1 x pH 7.01Buff | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for pH Calibration Solution Combo: 1 x pH 4.01Buffer Solution 220 ml 1 x pH 7.01Buff at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[balrog]

...pH measurement should be performed at room-temperature to avoid the measurement errors created by the temperature effects on the probe and chemically in the mash. " IMO, what a PITA...If so, what a tremendous waste of time for each test.

Keep in mind that pH is actually different at different temps, same sample, and "temp correction" does not "fix" this, it only corrects measurement at diff temp than calibration solution temps. See, for instance, this

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I preface by writing I've never used a pH meter nor have any experience with a pH meter.

I'm finding conflicting information concerning the ATC. Online video using a pH meter during mashes just puts the meter probes into the mash. However, searching the net I find instructions stating the probes are placed into the solution under test at the same temp as was done to calibrate the meter. Which is correct? I don't know.

If, in fact, the solution being tested must be at the same temp as was done to calibrate the meter, what is the purpose of the temp probe? IMO, seems unnecessary. However, once again, I don't know.

Similar to cleaning the probe. Some rinse using tap water, some use cleaning solution, some use distilled water. Some assert to NOT wipe the probe while other use a soft cloth to wipe the probe. Which is correct?

 

[augiedoggy]

I preface by writing I've never used a pH meter nor have any experience with a pH meter.

I'm finding conflicting information concerning the ATC. Online video using a pH meter during mashes just puts the meter probes into the mash. However, searching the net I find instructions stating the probes are placed into the solution under test at the same temp as was done to calibrate the meter. Which is correct? I don't know.

If, in fact, the solution being tested must be at the same temp as was done to calibrate the meter, what is the purpose of the temp probe? IMO, seems unnecessary. However, once again, I don't know.

Similar to cleaning the probe. Some rinse using tap water, some use cleaning solution, some use distilled water. Some assert to NOT wipe the probe while other use a soft cloth to wipe the probe. Which is correct?

unless theres some special probe im unaware of, people who are just sticking the ph meter into the mash likely dont know what they are doing. Even ph probes that are rated for high temps will have a dramatically shortened probe life by subjecting them to high temps.

There are different types of ph probe tech some require water some require special solutions for best results. My cheapy $10 meters use water for example and if the probe dries up I have to clean it and soak it for a while before recalibrating. im using hanna storage solution for my milwaukee meter and it works fine. Ive only rinsed that probe.. never wiped.

 

[ITV]

I preface by writing I've never used a pH meter nor have any experience with a pH meter.

I'm finding conflicting information concerning the ATC. Online video using a pH meter during mashes just puts the meter probes into the mash. However, searching the net I find instructions stating the probes are placed into the solution under test at the same temp as was done to calibrate the meter. Which is correct? I don't know.

If, in fact, the solution being tested must be at the same temp as was done to calibrate the meter, what is the purpose of the temp probe? IMO, seems unnecessary. However, once again, I don't know.

Similar to cleaning the probe. Some rinse using tap water, some use cleaning solution, some use distilled water. Some assert to NOT wipe the probe while other use a soft cloth to wipe the probe. Which is correct?

I feel your pain. I reviewed the instructions on Milwaukee's website for the MW102 pH meter and it "suggests" 32 - 158 deg F temps with the ATC and no mention of taking samples at "room" temperature.
Sometimes you have to take the manufactures litature with a grain of salt, I often find that the marketing people get to include "false" information in the litature.
As an example I bought a new roof ventilation fan about 10 years ago that stated "sealed bearings". Now it is squeeling like a stuck pig and when I took it down to investigate I find that it has provisions to oil the bearings. If I had ignored the marketing BS and bothered to look if it had provisions to oil the bearings, I would have done so yearly.

In fact the homebrewing hobby is full of conflicting information: do I add water to the grains, do I add grains to the water, etc. Fortunately I started homebrewing before the internet and I followed Charlie Papazian's advice "don't worry have a homebrew". Now I do research on the internet, magazine articles, books and advice from my fellow homebrew club members and end up coming to my own conclusions based on trial, error and results from my own experience.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I feel your pain. I reviewed the instructions on Milwaukee's website for the MW102 pH meter and it "suggests" 32 - 158 deg F temps with the ATC and no mention of taking samples at "room" temperature.

Have a pH meter? If so, take a reading at mash or room temp?

 

[ITV]

Have a pH meter? If so, take a reading at mash or room temp?

Yes, I have the MW102. Initially I was taking temps at mash temps but found that the meter took a long time to stabilize and the readings would continue to drift. After soaking the probe in cleaning solution and recalbrating the meter I now put a sample of my mash into a stainless steel sauce pan, allow it to cool to room temp (15 minutes) and take a reading. I find that the meter stabilizes quickly and no longer drifts. I only take one reading toward the end of my mash to confirm that I am within pH range.

I use RO water along with Beersmith software which calculates my lactic acid amount which I find it to be dead on, so I am using my pH meter to verify the results. Which brings me to another conflict: should I worry about mash pH when using RO water? From my experience I add the recommended amount of lactic acid and my mash pH is dead on so I will continue to do so regardless of what other people are stating.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Following from BYO "Mr. Wizard"

Setting the Record Straight on Mash pH - Brew Your Own

There are some answers that I write where I know that I am stepping into a gray area, and my very brief sidebar about pH jumped square in the middle of the

byo.com

"My view is that references in the literature refer to mash pH, measured at mash temperature. Not mash samples that have been cooled to room temperature and measured."

 

[couchsending]

Following from BYO "Mr. Wizard"

Setting the Record Straight on Mash pH - Brew Your Own

There are some answers that I write where I know that I am stepping into a gray area, and my very brief sidebar about pH jumped square in the middle of the

byo.com

"My view is that references in the literature refer to mash pH, measured at mash temperature. Not mash samples that have been cooled to room temperature and measured."

you can find just as many articles that will say the opposite

 

[day_trippr]

Taking pH readings at mash temperature surely will result in spending $$ on replacement sensors otherwise unnecessarily, and to what end?
There seems to be plenty of data that can correlate room temperature readings to mash temperature pH...

Cheers!

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I'm reading all the HBT posts and other posts I can locate on this matter.

IMO, don't watch "PH Manipulation for Mash and Sparge" at youtube as it's a complete waste of time and misleading too. I really don't understand why people making "instructional" videos don't 1. Plan their video and 2. Edit their video.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Recommended amount of mash sample for pH reading?

Recommended quickest way to get the sample to room temp for testing the pH?

 

[day_trippr]

The least needed to completely immerse the sensor nodes.
Sample in a small glass, then immerse that in a small bowl of ice water. Swirl if you're really in a hurry...

Cheers!

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

It's my understanding the temp probe, of the pH meter, is outside the sample being pH measured as the measurement is being done, at room temp, same as when calibrated. Is this correct?

 

[The M]

Milwaukee PH56. No complaints, works like a charm

 

[TLaffey]

+1 on the Extech. I've been using the same one--still using the original probe--one day a month for about three years now. I could almost skip calibrating before using it, but I do anyway (using the Milwaukee "sachet" buffers).

View attachment 688843

 

[couchsending]

Keep in mind mash pH is one of maybe 5 different times pH should be measured before the wort hits the fermenter. All those different times will have different temps. If you cool all of them to room temp you have a baseline to go off of, and you won’t ruin your probe in 6 months. pH is a great way to measure the success of the whole beer making process.

Mash pH
Sparge water pH
Final runnings pH
Kettle full pH
pH with 10 minutes left
Knockout pH

pH measurements throughout fermentation
pH before and after dry hop
Final beer pH

All these instances will give you great reference points to how successful (or not) the process has been up to that point.

 

[Maxkling]

Keep in mind mash pH is one of maybe 5 different times pH should be measured before the wort hits the fermenter. All those different times will have different temps. If you cool all of them to room temp you have a baseline to go off of, and you won’t ruin your probe in 6 months. pH is a great way to measure the success of the whole beer making process.

Mash pH
Sparge water pH
Final runnings pH
Kettle full pH
pH with 10 minutes left
Knockout pH

pH measurements throughout fermentation
pH before and after dry hop
Final beer pH

All these instances will give you great reference points to how successful (or not) the process has been up to that point.

I’m not going to lie, that is excessive for most people.

 

[day_trippr]

It's my understanding the temp probe, of the pH meter, is outside the sample being pH measured as the measurement is being done, at room temp, same as when calibrated. Is this correct?

On my Hanna 98128 there is a temperature probe adjacent to the pH bulb and the junction, all built into the replaceable pH sensor assembly. They all must be immersed, but in my Sam Adams sampling glasses that takes less than an ounce of fluid. I expect my Hach PP+ and my Apera pH60 have similar setups...

Cheers!

[edit] I just remembered I had posted this pic on HBT a couple of years ago. It's a Hach PP+ sensor assembly with a shattered pH bulb. The junction can be seen towards the back, and the temperature sensor to the right...

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

[edit] I just remembered I had posted this pic on HBT a couple of years ago. It's a Hach PP+ sensor assembly with a shattered pH bulb. The junction can be seen towards the back, and the temperature sensor to the right...

Yes, thanks. I recall seeing the photo as I read thru all pH meter threads I could find at HBT.

 

[couchsending]

I’m not going to lie, that is excessive for most people.

Excessive for some, SOP for others...

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Keep in mind mash pH is one of maybe 5 different times pH should be measured before the wort hits the fermenter. All those different times will have different temps. If you cool all of them to room temp you have a baseline to go off of, and you won’t ruin your probe in 6 months. pH is a great way to measure the success of the whole beer making process.

Mash pH
Sparge water pH
Final runnings pH
Kettle full pH
pH with 10 minutes left
Knockout pH

pH measurements throughout fermentation
pH before and after dry hop
Final beer pH

All these instances will give you great reference points to how successful (or not) the process has been up to that point.

I'm still reading/learning about pH meters, et al.

What are the recommended ranges for each of the pH tests noted?

Or, if the numerous pH readings are a bit much, what pH readings (at what steps) are recommended (with the desired pH range)?

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

HBT MW102 coupon code is still active!

 

[rhys333]

Hello Brewers,

Are there any new pH meter recommendations for 2023?

I've been using the Thermoworks 8689 for a few years and I'm considering a change. I find the replacement probes to be hit and miss. Some are good and others somewhat unstable. Also, having probes shipped from the US to my location in Canada is horribly expensive. I'm probably better off investing in a higher priced unit as long as it has easier to obtain (and hopefully low cost) replacement probes.

I appreciate any advice you're able to provide.

 

[day_trippr]

Apera PH60 is hard to beat wrt price/performance and ease of use as it's untethered and quite light.
Plus replacement sensors are relatively inexpensive compared to some competitive meters...

Cheers!

 

[rhys333]

Apera PH60 is hard to beat wrt price/performance and ease of use as it's untethered and quite light.
Plus replacement sensors are relatively inexpensive compared to some competitive meters...

Cheers!

I see some reports that people can go weeks without needing to recalibrate the Apera PH60. That sounds good to me considering how my unit needs constant recalibration. Also claims by the manufacturer that probes last 1 to 2 years.

What are you paying for the probes?

 

[balrog]

loos like amz has replacement bulb sensors for $34
that model also has a flat sensor option rather than the bulb sensor, which do you rec and why @day_trippr ?

 

[day_trippr]

Pretty sure they both have bulbs, but one can sit flat. My ph60 came with the sensor on the right, and that type now comes with a removable perforated plastic guard over the bulb which should greatly reduce contact damage. I recommend that style sensor for that reason...

Cheers!

 

[AlexKay]

I see some reports that people can go weeks without needing to recalibrate the Apera PH60. That sounds good to me considering how my unit needs constant recalibration. Also claims by the manufacturer that probes last 1 to 2 years.

What are you paying for the probes?

I have a pH60. I'm dubious about those reports, as I think constant recalibration is the way of all pH measurements. At least if you care about your measurement accuracy to more than a few tenths of a point.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I usually do a single point test with 7.something calibration solution. If it hasn't been that long since a 3 point cal, if the 7 reading is tight I go with it...

Cheers!

 

[CaptMogul]

I tell interested visitors that of all the equipment I have the PH meter is the most expencive piece per use that I have. Throw away a $ 65 plus meter after 3-4 uses. Not worth the hassle. Take your H2o or your wort sample to a craft brewer, they would be happy to check it for you if you buy pint. Just my opinion

 

[Yesfan]

I have the Apera PH20. So far I've been happy with it.

 

[MaxStout]

I tell interested visitors that of all the equipment I have the PH meter is the most expencive piece per use that I have. Throw away a $ 65 plus meter after 3-4 uses. Not worth the hassle. Take your H2o or your wort sample to a craft brewer, they would be happy to check it for you if you buy pint. Just my opinion

So I just let the mash sit a few hours while I run down the road to my local brewery, ask the brewer to measure the wort sample, drink a pint, then drive home?

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

MW102 PRO pH/Temp Meter - Buckeye Hydro

www.buckeyehydro.com

 

[balrog]

So I just let the mash sit a few hours while I run down the road to my local brewery, ask the brewer to measure the wort sample, drink a pint, then drive home?

Std thinking is that it's too late to measure and adjust during mash (caveat: I BIAB full volume and fine grind, YMMV), and measuring is for making adjustments next time. Which will have different lots of malt, maybe from different maltsters, so, um, yeah.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I found this pic of the new-style replacement sensor housing showing the removable "screen"...

Considering I destroyed the sensor bulb on my elder Hach Pocket Pro Plus handheld from contact with the rim of a sample glass this is definitely a good thing imo...

Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

I believe for the most part a pH meter is best used to help tune recipes, not so much to "fix" a brew in progress. I use Bru'n Water with my Beersmith3 program to design a recipe, then on brew day I take measurements once recirculation has been running for 20 minutes, then at 40 and 60, and then pre-boil and post-boil. I use those measurements to adjust the recipe for the next batch if it makes sense to do so.

To be honest most of my "new" recipes at this point are derivative enough - and I use 100% RO for every batch - that first-brews are always in the ball park wrt mash pH, so at most I'm tweaking the recipes for the next batch. It's been a long time since I had to pull the 25% PA out on a brew day...

Cheers!