Peltier vs. Fermwrap vs. chamber vs. Giycol

[swanwick]

I have been thinking about getting a conical fermenter and so recently asked a question about using my large keezer to cool a ferm chamber.

But I saw on Stout's website that they have a peltier approach that seems to eliminate the need for a chamber. Anyone used those?

Fermwrap can only heat. I assume giycol can be used for both heating and cooiing.

Would iove to hear ppls thoughts on when to use which approach. I am in Maryland where we get cold and hot so need to be able to control in both directions.

 

[augiedoggy]

I use a coolzone cooling jacket with a glycol chiller (only filled with water ) on my 12.5 gallon stout conical purchased from their ebay store. I am very satisfied with the results.

 

[-CHRIS-]

I decided to purchase a true GDM-12 fridge and will use a small space heater in it to warm if necessary. The interior dimensions are 19 x 19 x 45 approximately so it will fit any 12 gallon fermenter on the market. It will even fit two 7 gallon brew buckets!

The whole peliter cooler, water jacket, etc seemed like a lot more work for a less desirable finished product.

Chris

 

[sandyeggoxj]

I use an immersion style glycol cooling system. 20' x 3/8". I keep my glycol at 25 degrees. I can crash at .5 degree per minute from 70 to 45 with 11 gallons of beer.

 

[ajdelange]

The problem with Peltier coolers is that they do not pump much heat. Of course a few gallons of fermenting beer does not produce that much heat but a fair amount of heat can sneak into you CC from the ambient if it is not well insulated. Be sure to do some tests to see how much this is (fill the thing with cold water and see how fast it warms up as a function of ambient temperature). The rate of change of temperature in degrees Fahrenheit multiplied by the mass of the water is an indication of how many BTU/time period are sneaking into your fermenter. Be sure that the Peletier units you are considering can remove heat at at least that rate (their capacity depends on the ambient temperature) or you will not be able to hold temperature. Things obviously get dicier the colder you wish to hold your beer. I'm guessing that, for example, you wouldn't be able to hold 15 gal of Pilsner near freezing with a reasonable investment in Peltier devices.

Then there is the question of how fast you can cool with them. Each degree drop requires extraction of 1 BTU of heat for each pound of beer. If you have 15 gal of beer that's about 120 lbs and if you wanted to cool 1 °F per minute you'd need to pull 120 BTU/min which is 7200 BTU/hr = 0.6 ton. I don't think you can expect that from Peltier devices.

 

[Tegra]

I started with a coolatron 12v cooler I adapted to hold a carboy. It worked great at keeping about 65 degrees and averaged out running about half the time. It could not go much below this and keep up with the fermentation heat. Thus it was not usable for lager and was probably using twice the power a freezer would have.

I have since switched to small chest freezer that give me more capacity, more temperature control (allowing cold crashing) and less power usage. It is easy to open, look decent and can easily be replaced for cheap or free.

Tom

 

[ajdelange]

I started with a coolatron 12v cooler I adapted to hold a carboy. It worked great at keeping about 65 degrees and averaged out running about half the time. It could not go much below this and keep up with the fermentation heat. Thus it was not usable for lager and was probably using twice the power a freezer would have.

That's the way Peltier devices are. To return to the 1 °F/minute example: that 7200 BTU/hr is 2110 W. To pump heat from 0 °C to 20 °C (end of a crash cool from room temperature to near freezing) requires, according to the 2nd Law at least 144 Watts (no machine can do it for less that that). Peltier devices require 6.7 to 10 times more than the ideal device and thus 960 - 1440 W. At the beginning of the crash to transfer heat at the rate of 7200 BTU/hr from 15 °C to 20 °C only requires (ideal machine) 36 W which, with real device efficiencies, translates to 240 - 360 W. Thus these things are OK for minimal cooling of small volumes of beer and not much else.

To estimate how much heat you can move with a device take its power consumption and divide by 10. Then divide that by (1 - Tbeer/Troom) where Tbeer equals the temperature of the beer in centigrade plus 273 and Troom equals the temperature of the room in centrigrade plus 273. Convert to BTU/hr by multiplying by 3.412. Example: 12V device drawing 10 amperes cooling from 20 °C (68 °F) to 15 °C (59 °F):
120*12 = 120W

120/10 = 12

(1 - (273 + 15)/(273 + 20) ) = 0.0171

12/0.0171 = 703

703*3.412 = 2398 BTU/Hr.

 

[swanwick]

@ajdelange Thanks so much for that explation. It seems you are focusing on the equations for cooling speed.

My use case is much more about wanting to remain at constant temp despite high ambient temp. I have to believe that good insulation will allow for some pretty decent differentials. I have seen some posts where a guy is claiming 39deg F differentials.

Option A = build a ferm chamber and duct into it from my large keezer with a temp controller operating the duct fan in both directions.
Option B = 2 blocks with 2 peltier chips each (from Stout).

The fermenter is in a space that is not already air conditioned (ie. not 72F or anything near it). Space above my carport that I am turning into a brewing space. I live in Maryland where summer heat is regularly in the 90's. So, I need to be able to maintain a 25 degree or so differential between ambient and inside fermenter

Option B saves construction costs for a chamber that can hold a 14 gallon conical and the ducting from the keezer. Hence why I am exploring it.

 

[ajdelange]

It seems you are focusing on the equations for cooling speed.

The same sort of reasoning pertains to the static situation. As explained in #5 the amount of heat, in BTU/hr, sneaking into your fermenter at a given temperature differential is W*∆T/∆t where W is the weight of the beer (or water for a test) and ∆T/∆t is the rate of change of temperature in degrees per hour. It is proportional to the temperature difference between the liquid inside and the ambient so if you do a test with a 20 °F differential the heat flow you determine will be twice what you would find with a 10 ° differential and half what it would be with a 40 ° differential. You can get a large differential with a small amount of heat pumped if you
1)Are willing long enough for a low capacity chiller to pump the heat out
2)Have a well insulated vessel.

I have seen some posts where a guy is claiming 39deg F differentials.

No question that is doable if the insulation is good enough.

 

[Cioffi]

I use an immersion style glycol cooling system. 20' x 3/8". I keep my glycol at 25 degrees. I can crash at .5 degree per minute from 70 to 45 with 11 gallons of beer.

Any photos of this set up? I'd like to do this. I have a glycol chiller (intended to chill long runs of beer line) and want to submerge a coil in my conical fermenter and run glycol through the coil to chill, cold crash, etc. Some photos of a DIY version would be most helpful.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Any photos of this set up? I'd like to do this. I have a glycol chiller (intended to chill long runs of beer line) and want to submerge a coil in my conical fermenter and run glycol through the coil to chill, cold crash, etc. Some photos of a DIY version would be most helpful.

Sure thing. I'll post some tomorrow night. I have a dark american mild fermenting away right now.

 

[Cioffi]

Thanks! I look forward to seeing your set up.

 

[augiedoggy]

I decided to purchase a true GDM-12 fridge and will use a small space heater in it to warm if necessary. The interior dimensions are 19 x 19 x 45 approximately so it will fit any 12 gallon fermenter on the market. It will even fit two 7 gallon brew buckets!

The whole peliter cooler, water jacket, etc seemed like a lot more work for a less desirable finished product.

Chris

not exactly..... a single chiller is way more efficient and can easily control multiple $60 cooling jackets with acontroller like an stc1000, a $2 soleniod valve and a $3 relay....The control I have now for 4 fermenters would take up too much room, electricity and cost if I were to buy four individual coolers plus If I want to add control for more fermenters down the road my only requirement is some cpvc plumbing, an stc1000 or stc1000+ and the $65 in hardware.for each fermenter. When you look at the cost of the coolers and long term maintenance to them the Idea becomes even less appealing.

If your looking to spend a lot of money for a "desirable looking product" then yeah depending on how its executed your system might look more impressive if thats a concern, also if your fermenters are stored in extreme temp conditions it may honestly make more sense... so far I have had no issues. I have 10 gallons holding fine at 50 degrees now and my chiller rarely kicks on surprisingly.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Thanks! I look forward to seeing your set up.

Here are a couple pictures. I have this fermenter: http://brewhemoth.com/tri-clover-brewhemoth and I have brewers hardware butterfly valves.

I have this immersion coil: http://brewhemoth.com/dual-temperature-coil

And here it is in action. Please note that my setup currently looks super ghetto. It is my "alpha test" system. I plan to make a SS frame and custom glycol bath reservoir out of foam insulation and fiberglass and add a procon continuous duty pump to keep a chilled glycol loop and have multiple vessels run off the same glycol like a real brewery. I have been acquiring stuff to make that happen but I haven't finished it yet. It is somewhat of a "temporary permanent" solution.





I keep the glycol at 25ºF with a 3ºF hysteresis. With an ambient of 80ºF or less, and no insulation on the conical, I can crash the fermenter down to 38ºF and hold that temperature. I only use one side of the coil so I only have 20' of 3/8" SS coil cooling the beer. I plan to ditch the dual coil and move to a single 30' coil. At the same time I will ditch the 45w seedling heater mat that I have taped to the back of the fermenter and move to silicone heat mats that put out about 50 watts each. I have a black box controlling things right now but I plan to move the BCS from the brew panel to the wall panel and keep it running 24/7 to manage glycol and fermentation temps as well as bright tank temperatures once I add those. On brew day I'll pop a cat5 from the ferm panel to the brew panel to manage the high voltage ebrew stuff.

 

[Cioffi]

This is awesome. Thanks for posting the pics. As mentioned, I'm getting ready to build something similar for my conical.

 

[augiedoggy]

these $60 cooling jackets are easy to move between conicals and carboys and work awesome to control temps too... I wasnt thrilled about having coils inside my fermenter to clean and keep sterile. also the fittings and holes are less than sanitary.

 

[jmitchell3]

these $60 cooling jackets are easy to move between conicals and carboys and work awesome to control temps too... I wasnt thrilled about having coils inside my fermenter to clean and keep sterile. also the fittings and holes are less than sanitary.

Yeah was thinking about going this route. What size stout tank is that? On the website it looks like the 7.3g dont come with a welded triclamp on the lid...

 

[augiedoggy]

Yeah was thinking about going this route. What size stout tank is that? On the website it looks like the 7.3g dont come with a welded triclamp on the lid...

I have the 12.5 gallon stout... something I learned since posting that though is regular blue discharge hose wrapped around the outside of the conical with stoppers and a piece of 3/8" tubing for hose fittings works much better than the coolzone jackets... I actually get frost on the inside of my conical walls if I run my chiller coolant through it when empty... Total cost is under $20 plus about $20 for the foil bubble faced insulation to cover and insulate it all...

I used this stuff..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-1-2-Disch...hash=item41a26f566f:m:m5uiflMsDScfXfZErPTw1ow

keep in mind the second pic was taken before I was done insulation and cleaning things up...

 

[jimmerz]

I have the 12.5 gallon stout... something I learned since posting that though is regular blue discharge hose wrapped around the outside of the conical with stoppers and a piece of 3/8" tubing for hose fittings works much better than the coolzone jackets... I actually get frost on the inside of my conical walls if I run my chiller coolant through it when empty... Total cost is under $20 plus about $20 for the foil bubble faced insulation to cover and insulate it all...

I used this stuff..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-1-2-Disch...hash=item41a26f566f:m:m5uiflMsDScfXfZErPTw1ow

keep in mind the second pic was taken before I was done insulation and cleaning things up...

Did you make some custom fittings for your fast fermenter?

 

[jmitchell3]

I have the 12.5 gallon stout... something I learned since posting that though is regular blue discharge hose wrapped around the outside of the conical with stoppers and a piece of 3/8" tubing for hose fittings works much better than the coolzone jackets... I actually get frost on the inside of my conical walls if I run my chiller coolant through it when empty... Total cost is under $20 plus about $20 for the foil bubble faced insulation to cover and insulate it all...

I used this stuff..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-1-2-Disch...hash=item41a26f566f:m:m5uiflMsDScfXfZErPTw1ow

keep in mind the second pic was taken before I was done insulation and cleaning things up...

Interesting! Do you know what the temp rating is on that discharge hose? How did you discover that the hose works better than the cool zone wrap? May i ask, how is it better? I like the idea...

Did you consider for instance copper tubing? Does the discharge hose have issues with condensation under the insulation?

 

[augiedoggy]

Did you make some custom fittings for your fast fermenter?

No I just replaced the cracked pvc valve with a stainless one... Its a V vessel and they used the camlocks from the manufacturer Fast ferment is a company that bought the rights to them and changed things before spending much more on marketing than the owner of the V vessel did so they became much better known in thier current configuration.... Fast ferment was looking for a way to make them both shorter to fit in fridges better and cheaper so they cut them out. you can easiy and cheaply add stainless camlocks though as well as the ballvalve.

 

[augiedoggy]

Interesting! Do you know what the temp rating is on that discharge hose? How did you discover that the hose works better than the cool zone wrap? May i ask, how is it better? I like the idea...

Did you consider for instance copper tubing? Does the discharge hose have issues with condensation under the insulation?

I got the discharge hose idea from a you tube video... I dont know the specs on the hose other than its strong, thin walled and works incredibly fast to control temps... they sell it at the home depot as well. The jacket is nice but its reaction time is much slower and its expensive.. I Haven't had any condensation issues with anything now that I insulated but that could change in the summer months.

 

[Tegra]

Augiedoggy:

Love this idea. Walmart has this in the pool section as "backwash hose".

Do you wrap it tightly around the fermenter?
How much space between loops?

Tom

 

[iijakii]

Augiedoggy:

Love this idea. Walmart has this in the pool section as "backwash hose".

Do you wrap it tightly around the fermenter?
How much space between loops?

Tom

I copied Auggie and did the layflat hose as well. I wrapped it loosely on the flat portion, as it'll expand quite a bit when you turn it on and start pumping through it. Loosely taped. I wrapped the insulation a bit tight so it's all held in place via that.

This isnt how it ended up, but just to give you an idea:

 

[swanwick]

I ended up going with the SSBrewtech Chronical BME and placing it next to my keezer. Images attached.

For cold: a bucket of cold water with a pump in it attached to cold side of temp control pumps cold water through the coils in the chronical.

For hot: I wedged (only about 90% fit due to the legs and fittings) a fermwrap between the outside surface and the insulation jacket. I might switch this to a brewbelt since I am not dealing with needing extreme warm temps inside my house.