Partigyle barleywine and poor decisions

[svenalope]

Hey guys! I made some barleywine today. I also made some poor decisions regarding the barleywine. Here's how it went:
The mash went very well, the first run was around 1.090 and it didn't drop off very fast. I think I got 4-5 runs (maybe 2-3 gallon each) before I decided to stop watering down my wort. That made me go for a partigyle brew, which I've been wanting to try, but the mash just has never worked out for it. So I took about 5 gallons at around 1.080 or so, and 5 more around 1.040 or so. That was my first mistake, taking five gallons for each brew to fill a 6.5 gallon carboy after the boil. Next, I forgot to turn down the heat after I got all my hot break, so most of my 90 minute boil was just rolling. That dropped me down to about three gallons of wort at 1.140 OG. I could have watered it down, but I decided to just go with it. Pitched Wyeast Irish ale yeast in a very happy day old starter, prepared on my homemade stir plate, with honey and molasses. I didn't measure the gravity but I'd guess it to be around 1.060 or 1.070.
Finally, I forgot to sanitize anything. I guess I put this lowest on my list of problems, because 1.040 OG, as far as I'm concerned, is well past any sort of environment any undesirables may want to live in, so if it turns out I think the yeasts will keep it under control.
Finally, I got a little freaked out about the bigger beer, and pitched some Lalvin 1118. It's more of a backup plan, or maybe a two-stage ferment plan; I'm hoping the irish ale will take off and do a lot of good work in the next week, and ideally finish the job. I don't think they can make it to 18% though. The 1118, I've noticed, is a really slow yeast, but it just keeps on trucking for ever and ever, so maybe it will get me kind of close to where I want to be.
The second run beer came out ok, at 4-4.5 gallons, may be overhopped but I'll just call it an IPA or something. OG at about 1.038, but still mega dark and it just seemed a lot thicked than 1.038. I remembered, this time, to sanitize everything except the carboy, which at least was washed with soap today.
So, what do you guys think? I'm feeling alright about the small beer, except for the hops, but that's recipe, and also for the sanitation. I also am kind of wondering why I'm bothering with such a lot gravity, but I have a bias towards fruit and vegetable wine. Are beers around that OG like, pretty groovy?
And the big beer, when I took my gravity reading, I had this sinking feeling a lot like the last breakup I went through. But I fancy myself an optimist, so I went with it in hopes of having one of those crazy mistakes that produces something phenomenal. So. Anyone know anything about ale yeasts and this sort of megagravity? Any thoughts on using a wine yeast in beer? And, I've read, a long time ago, about beers around 25% made with massive starters real special conditions that basically encouraged the yeasts to go balls out for two days or so and then completely crash, if I remember right it was using one of those ancient babylonian recipes or something that they find written on pots from time to time. Anybody ever do anything crazy like that, just forcing the yeasts to blow their load in the first two days of ferment?
Sorry if I ramble; I've been drinking salvator for inspiration, because all beer should be nutritious.

 

[svenalope]

Furthermore, on the smaller beer, I came up with 54 IBUs from Palmer's equations, and when I tasted the wort it was a little bitty even for an IPA. Any thoughts on a low gravity IPA style? Also, I dry hopped it with some willamette and magnum that I had leftover and wasn't worth saving. Will that add bitterness, or just hop aromas? Man you guys, I was really off my game today.

 

[svenalope]

One last note, you cats may like to know the grain bill. It came out really dark, not quite porter but definitely brown ale:
18 lb pale
4 lb wheat
3 lb munich
1 lb crystal 120L

 

[RonPopeil]

54ibu's on a 1.038 OG is going to be way hoppy.

as for the wine yeast, that should dry out your barleywine. wine yeast will survive the higher ABV that ale yeast won't so you're going to be left with a dryer more alcoholic beer.

 

[svenalope]

Here's an update!
I've bottled the small beer and it's actually pretty drinkable. It came out around 1.005 FG, which is a little light for my taste, and there's not any noticeable (to my palate) malt flavor kicking around, which is disappointing, but the hoppiness actually worked out. It basically tastes like any pale with the body of budweiser or whatever, which I forget the acronym for. So that one is a success. I just racked the big one the other day, and it's cut something like 90 points with no visible bubbling, but has a pretty perfect head right now, so I'm thinking it's still fermenting. Even right now, it's more drinkable than any Scotch Ale I've had, which is to say that it's less terrible-malty cloying. I think I'm committed to this one for a while, and may as well buy a new carboy to replace the one this is fermenting in, because this, I think, is going to come down to a reasonable gravity (from 1.040) and be an insane beer (1118 is notorious for going completely dry, as I understand). No plans to touch it for months. Maybe I'll do another rack in a year. (autolysis?). Oh, this is a great hobby in science! Any thoughts? Does degassing beer help? I'd think it would hurt for the potential of oxidization.

 

[jscherff]

This is a really old thread, but I'll post my comment anyway so others don't make the same mistake.

Yeast in the Saccharomyces Cerevisiae family have a "competitive factor" - they're either "active," "neutral," or "sensitive." Strains that are "active" will kill strains that are "susceptible." Strains that are "neutral" will neither kill or be killed. All ale yeasts are "susceptible." Many dry wine and champagne yeast strains, including EC-1118, are "active" (killer). By adding the EC-1118 to your wort, you effectively killed your Irish Ale yeast. What's more, most wine/champagne yeast strains have trouble fermenting the trisaccharide maltotriose found in beer, so you will end up with a higher FG (sweeter, lower-alcohol) beer if you use these strains.

That said, there are dry wine yeast strains that are not killer, one of which is 71B-1122. You can, if you want, combine these with your ale yeast (or add them later in the fermentation) if you like the ester profiles and want to add some depth to your beer. (71B-1122, for example, is supposed to have a "fruit salad" ester profile.) I did a split batch of Saison once and fermented half with Wyeast 3711 and the other with Wyeast 3711 plus 71B-1122 added 24 hours later. I didn't notice much difference between the two.

These days I use dry wine yeast for bottle conditioning beers that have spent a long time in secondary or have been extensively cold-crashed to make sure there's enough yeast to ferment the priming sugar. Even here you have to be very careful to match the attenuation of the wine yeast to your ale yeast. I used Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast once to bottle condition a RIS fermented with Wyeast 1056. Red Star has 80% attenuation whereas 1056 has 73-77%. I ended up with a WAY over-carbonated RIS.

Here's a quick reference chart for Lallemand yeast strains that shows you their competitive factor and other information.

Hope this saves someone from killing innocent ale yeast...