Parti-gyle Westvleteren 12 and Patersbier questions?

[Rudeboy]

I’m thinking of making a parti-gyle of Westvleteren 12 and a Patersbier/Enkel beer.

This will be 2 nominal 5 gallon batches.

What I’m thinking is a 3 litre starter of 3787 on a stir plate about 24 hours before.

Grain bill, 6 KG Belgium Pils, 2 KG Munich. That’s it. I take the first runnings for the Westy 12, will mash in fairly thin to get lots of volume. Maybe a bit of the second runnings. Then take a bit of the second runnings and the third runnings for the Patersbier. Add 454 g of plain beet sugar and 454g of D2 Candi syrup to the Westy 12 wort. I would like to get at least 1.090 SG for the Westy 12. I really don’t care about the Patersbier SG, I’d be happy with something in the mid-1.030’s. I really intend this to be an Enkel session beer not some sort of Blonde. No decoction. 152 F single infusion.

The hops would be noble Hallertauer and Saaz. Low 30’s IBU for the Westy 12. Low 20’s for the Patersbier. 90 minute boil.

Don’t decant the starter and pitch a little more than 2 litres into the Westy 12 and a little less than 1 litre into the Patersbier.

What do people think? I use and love Beersmith and have my process numbers down but its’ numbers don’t really work for parti-gyling. Here are the questions concerning me.

Do I have enough grist and sugars to hit my gravity numbers?

Will I get the right colour with only 1 pound of D2? It’s this D2 http://morebeer.com/products/belgian-candi-syrup-dark2.html
It’s 160 SRM and Beersmith says I will get to the 30 SRM I’m seeking with just 1 pound. But I’m suspicious. “The Pious” recipe in the recipe database uses 3 pounds, although no Munich. I don’t want to add specialty malts. If I have to put in more colour I’d rather use more D2.

I don’t want to use Northern Brewer. I don’t like Northern Brewer. I don’t taste Northern Brewer in Westvleteren 12 at all. But I see it listed in almost all clone recipes. Is it an integral part of the beer?

I don’t have pH testing abilities and am a bit worried about astringency in my Patersbier. Will the 8 KG of grain have sufficient sugars to get 10 gallons of wort without over sparging?

Thanks

Rudeboy

 

[dcp27]

8kg of malt seems a lil shy to me. based on your desired OGs, sounds like you should target whatever it would take you to hit 10gallons of 1.055 wort (~1.034 for small beer, ~1.076 for westy minus the sugars). i don't like going over 3qt/lb total water for fear of over-sparging, but doesn't mean you couldnt get away with more and be fine.

you can try out kai's spreadsheet to help with partigyle calculations: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparge_and_Party_Gyle_Simulator

 

[Rudeboy]

OK follow up for anyone in the future looking at this (which will probably be me "Hi future me").

Did 7 KG Pils 2 KG Dark Munich. Pretty much maxed out my MLT even with a relatively thick mash. Did a protein rest to help fermentability.
Took first runnings and half of second runnings for the Westy 12. Added 454g of DME, 454 g of Beet sugar and 454g of the Candi Syrup D2 (160 SRM). Hit 1.090 after 90 minute boil. the 454g of the dark Candi Syrup was enough to get this in the right colour range. Took almost 3 weeks to get in the teens but was 1.017 last check. Will bottle soon. I think I'll add a little Champagne yeast to bottling bucket to insure carbonation.

The Enkel turned out fine. Took half of second runnings and a third runnings to end up aroiund 1.028 added a pound of Beet sugar to get a 1.033 SG after boil. Used 10 g of Magnum for bittering and 10g of Saaz late. Ended up with 3.5% ABV tastes nice. Before cooling and carbing tasted exactly like a Saison. Now has it's own taste. Maybe a little astringent but not really maybe too much bittering, I don't think it's tannins.

Rudeboy

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

OK follow up for anyone in the future looking at this (which will probably be me "Hi future me").

Did 7 KG Pils 2 KG Dark Munich. Pretty much maxed out my MLT even with a relatively thick mash. Did a protein rest to help fermentability.
Took first runnings and half of second runnings for the Westy 12. Added 454g of DME, 454 g of Beet sugar and 454g of the Candi Syrup D2 (160 SRM). Hit 1.090 after 90 minute boil. the 454g of the dark Candi Syrup was enough to get this in the right colour range. Took almost 3 weeks to get in the teens but was 1.017 last check. Will bottle soon. I think I'll add a little Champagne yeast to bottling bucket to insure carbonation.

The Enkel turned out fine. Took half of second runnings and a third runnings to end up aroiund 1.028 added a pound of Beet sugar to get a 1.033 SG after boil. Used 10 g of Magnum for bittering and 10g of Saaz late. Ended up with 3.5% ABV tastes nice. Before cooling and carbing tasted exactly like a Saison. Now has it's own taste. Maybe a little astringent but not really maybe too much bittering, I don't think it's tannins.

Rudeboy

Thanks for the follow up, I just found it based on a search I was doing and found it useful. Cheers!

 

[Rudeboy]

Late follow up follow up. At first I thought the Westy 12 was a little one demensional and nothing like the real one, for the first year. After a year tasted great and very much like the real thing. So this recipe will get you there but you have to wait it out in the bottle.

Bad news is I just finished the last bottle. Now I have to make it again and wait.

I don't think I'm going to do the parti-gyle again. The Enkel was ok but I have other running beers I want to brew and drink way ahead of it. Although I worry that the Westy 12 won't be as good if I use all the sparge.

Rudeboy

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

Late follow up follow up. At first I thought the Westy 12 was a little one demensional and nothing like the real one, for the first year. After a year tasted great and very much like the real thing. So this recipe will get you there but you have to wait it out in the bottle.

Bad news is I just finished the last bottle. Now I have to make it again and wait.

I don't think I'm going to do the parti-gyle again. The Enkel was ok but I have other running beers I want to brew and drink way ahead of it. Although I worry that the Westy 12 won't be as good if I use all the sparge.

Rudeboy

You know i'm facing the same thing with the Enkel I made from second runnings of the Westy clone. It's just meh and I have lots of others in the pipeline, once those are ready in a few weeks i'll probably end up just dumping the 2-3 gallons left of my Enkel.

I would just dump the extra sparge and use the westy recipe you did before, it's only a little cost down the drain and life is too short for bad beer.

 

[DPBISME]

I’m thinking of making a parti-gyle of Westvleteren 12 and a Patersbier/Enkel beer.

Do I have enough grist and sugars to hit my gravity numbers?

Rudeboy

The two tables in this article are what I look at deciding if I have enough grain...

Best tables I have seen and since "Randy" did all the calculations for me.... easy.

http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue2.2/mosher.html

DPB