• We have a new forum and it needs your help! Homebrewing Deals is a forum to post whatever deals and specials you find that other homebrewers might value! Includes coupon layering, Craigslist finds, eBay finds, Amazon specials, etc.

Pale ale with cascade hops advice

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

Saffersa

Member
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
23
Reaction score
4
Hello all
Hope everyone is well.
New to posting, new to forum, new to brewing my own, so very new all round.

I was hoping I could ask for some advice?
I've put together a recipe for a pale ale that I cobbled together from a few others, and have already brewed a 20L batch, which still in the fermenter bubbling away, but I have enough ingredients for a second batch a friend and I plan on cooking up sometime soon.

Ingredients:
Malts:
3kg SAB pale ale
1kg Munich type I
500gr Caraamber
500gr Carapils

Hops:
200gr Cascade (what I have on hand, not necessarily all I plan on using the next time)

Yeast:
11.5gr safale us-5 ( or thereabouts. Apologies to the purists)

Method:
Mash @65°C for 1hr
Batch sparge
Boil wort for 1hr
10gr cascade at 15
25gr cascade at 45
10gr cascade at 58
Chill,syphon, pitch etc
Dry hop 10gr @ day 3
Bottle @ day 8

As I mentioned earlier, this is already in the fermenter and we're obviously dieing to try it, but theres a few days still to go.
Patience is a virtue. I'm working on it.

The plan is to have another go at the second batch sometime soon, but I'd really appreciate any comments or advice that anyone can spare, because as I said at the top....so very new.
Best regards
 

Gnomebrewer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
2,455
Reaction score
1,254
Location
Hobart
What you've brewed looks good, but will drink more like a blonde ale (not very hoppy). I'm definitely not a hop-head and even I'll say that you need more hops to call that an American pale ale.

So, brewing again, firstly add more late and dry hops. For a nice, balanced APA, IMO about 2g/L late hops and 2g/L dry hop is about right. There are some hop-heads who'll say 10g/L minimum! So, maybe 1g/L at 10 minutes, 1g/L at flameout and 2g/L dry hop, then enough at 30 minutes to get the bitterness where you want it. I don't see any point in having a 45 minute and 60 minute addition - choose one or the other if you want it, or go with a 30 minute addition for bitterness which will also give good flavour.

Edit: you could easily even up that to 2g/[email protected] mins, 2g/[email protected] and 2g/L DH.
 

mashpaddled

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Messages
318
Reaction score
165
Location
Denver, CO
You are a light on hops for an American pale ale. Could be a fine beer but probably missing the mark if that is your goal.

That is probably too much munich and caraamber. You're about 65% pale malt and carapils combined which means you are going to end up with a malt forward beer. Again, not bad on premise but probably missing the mark.

For a cascade forward, classic pale ale take a look at recipes for Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.
 

jtratcliff

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
1,703
Reaction score
572
Location
Pasadena
Look up Yooper's Haus Ale in the recipe section.... It's an all-cascade APA... Very balanced and tasty. I keep it in my rotation... It's also a great base APA to make variations from... I've had great success changing up the hops for instance...

It calls for both Vienna and Munich as well as Crystal 60, I think... She uses Maris Otter as her base malt, but I've had good luck subbing the MO for 2-row + victory (or biscuit).

You can go wrong starting from her recipe and exploring,,,
 
OP
Saffersa

Saffersa

Member
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
23
Reaction score
4
What you've brewed looks good, but will drink more like a blonde ale (not very hoppy). I'm definitely not a hop-head and even I'll say that you need more hops to call that an American pale ale.

So, brewing again, firstly add more late and dry hops. For a nice, balanced APA, IMO about 2g/L late hops and 2g/L dry hop is about right. There are some hop-heads who'll say 10g/L minimum! So, maybe 1g/L at 10 minutes, 1g/L at flameout and 2g/L dry hop, then enough at 30 minutes to get the bitterness where you want it. I don't see any point in having a 45 minute and 60 minute addition - choose one or the other if you want it, or go with a 30 minute addition for bitterness which will also give good flavour.

Edit: you could easily even up that to 2g/[email protected] mins, 2g/[email protected] and 2g/L DH.
Hi Gnomebrewer

Thanks for the time to give me some pointers.

In the intention was to follow a recipe somebody sent me, but a day or 2 before kick-off I realised lots of info on the recipe didn't make sense. The result was me scrambling to try and hash together a few other recipes into 1 that allowed for the ingredients I already had. So basically a make-a-plan brew.

I'm really happy that it was at least be drinkable, if not anything else.
I like a hoppy beer, but not sure if I fall into the hop head category, at least not yet.

I will certainly give your modifications/ adjustment a crack, as I'd really like to try my hand at the same style of beer for a bit, or at least use the same ingredients for a while, and get a lot better and more experience before trying to branch out.

Many thanks again for your thoughts and suggestions.
Hope you have a fine weekend.
 
OP
Saffersa

Saffersa

Member
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
23
Reaction score
4
You are a light on hops for an American pale ale. Could be a fine beer but probably missing the mark if that is your goal.

That is probably too much munich and caraamber. You're about 65% pale malt and carapils combined which means you are going to end up with a malt forward beer. Again, not bad on premise but probably missing the mark.

For a cascade forward, classic pale ale take a look at recipes for Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.
Hi Mashpaddled

Thanks for the suggestion to look up the recipe for SNPA. To be honest, I'd be flying blind a bit, as I'm down in South Africa and we unfortunately dont get a fraction of the craft brews that are out there, so I've never even seen or had a SNPA.
We do have some really great craft breweries this side (at least I think so), and some not so great I suppose.
South Africa's more of a lager country, as that's all that was really available for far too many decades, so it's hard to convince your average beer-drinker to try something that smells like fruit, especially some of your macho-man types so even the craft brewers only maybe do 1 Pale Ale,1 Amber Ale and maybe 1 IPA in their line-up.

I'm certainly happy to try more hops in the next go, as I do have extra Cascade, but unfortunately I dont have any other malts at the moment as I'm still waiting for my next delivery.
Would you be able to give me some ideas on hops amounts and times that I should rather try on the next batch, or should I do more homework and check out the SNPA recipe first.
Again, thanks for the time to share your thoughts.
Keep well
 
OP
Saffersa

Saffersa

Member
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
23
Reaction score
4
...20L batch, seems like a lot of carmel malt....
Hi Bracconiere
Thanks for the tip. I was intending to follow a recipe given to me, but just before brewing I noticed lots of info missing from the method and some of the hop amounts speccd didn't correspond to the final tally, so I had to try and hash a recipe together on the fly. What i shared was the combination of a couple of other recipes, predominantly APA's, so in that vein is where I was hoping to get.
In future, how much Caraamber do you think would be more in keeping with the original goal of an APA in mind?
Many thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
 
OP
Saffersa

Saffersa

Member
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
23
Reaction score
4
Look up Yooper's Haus Ale in the recipe section.... It's an all-cascade APA... Very balanced and tasty. I keep it in my rotation... It's also a great base APA to make variations from... I've had great success changing up the hops for instance...

It calls for both Vienna and Munich as well as Crystal 60, I think... She uses Maris Otter as her base malt, but I've had good luck subbing the MO for 2-row + victory (or biscuit).

You can go wrong starting from her recipe and exploring,,,
Hi jratcliff

Thanks for tip to look up Yoopers recipe.
As I mentioned in my original post I'm very very news to this all, so I'm very happy to stick 1 or 2 types of base recipes for a good while until I have a bit experience and try to branch out for different styles.
Keep well, and thanks again
 

bracconiere

Jolly Alcoholic
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 19, 2018
Messages
6,884
Reaction score
2,879
Location
S.AZ
Hi Bracconiere
Thanks for the tip

lol, you'll find my tips quite often are wrong as you get to know me, i punched it into beersmith....now i'm thinking, outside of the 'style'.. looks like the right color, but i still think it would be to sweet for a 'plain good beer' and i'd probably throw 4oz's of roast barley into it to roughen it up....that also would put the color right in dead center for an APA according to beersmith also....

edit: and i have never gotten good with hops.....
 

Gnomebrewer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
2,455
Reaction score
1,254
Location
Hobart
Ha. I just realised that's caraamber, not amber (biscuit malt). As bracconiere said, 10% is too much. IMO, with pale ale malt and munich malt, you've got all the flavour you need for an APA. If you do use crystal/cara malts, keep it to 5% or less. Carapils is, IMO, useless but won't hurt anything either. I wouldn't worry about the colour - a golden pale ale looks delicious.

BTW, what was your OG and expected IBUs? For the style you're brewing (a more traditional, not in-your-face-hops APA) I'd suggest 1.050 and 40IBU with 5% crystal, or 1.050 and 35IBU without.

:off:Crystal/cara malts tend to become overly sweet if they become oxidised. Most new brewers (and also many experienced brewers) end up with some level of oxidation on the cold side (after boiling). You can still make really good beer without worrying about it, but cara/crystals will become sweet so needs to be limited in use. If, in the future, you get into closed transfers and/or spunding and other processes that avoid oxygen, you'll find you can use far more cara/crystal without it becoming too sweet.
 
Last edited:
OP
Saffersa

Saffersa

Member
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
23
Reaction score
4
Ha. I just realised that's caraamber, not amber (biscuit malt). As bracconiere said, 10% is too much. IMO, with pale ale malt and munich malt, you've got all the flavour you need for an APA. If you do use crystal/cara malts, keep it to 5% or less. Carapils is, IMO, useless but won't hurt anything either. I wouldn't worry about the colour - a golden pale ale looks delicious.

BTW, what was your OG and expected IBUs? For the style you're brewing (a more traditional, not in-your-face-hops APA) I'd suggest 1.050 and 40IBU with 5% crystal, or 1.040 and 35IBU without.

:off:Crystal/cara malts tend to become overly sweet if they become oxidised. Most new brewers (and also many experienced brewers) end up with some level of oxidation on the cold side (after boiling). You can still make really good beer without worrying about it, but cara/crystals will become sweet so needs to be limited in use. If, in the future, you get into closed transfers and/or spunding and other processes that avoid oxygen, you'll find you can use far more cara/crystal without it becoming too sweet.
Hi again Gnomebrewer
Thanks so much spending time on this - I really appreciate all the feedback.

So If I understand correctly, I should drop the Caraamber down to 250gr, scrap out the Carapils, and then maybe up the Munich I or the SAB PA depending on where I want the malt base to go. Correct?

OG & IBU's - I'll have to get back to you on that, my notes have already been packed away for neatness-sakes and I've been hella busy the last few days catching up on lost work-time during lockdown, so my brain is rather spaced atm.

No such thing as off-topic with me- more info is always better.
In that vein, I've ordered another 2 x20L batches but have swopped out the Cascade for either Chinook or Centennial, depending on the suppliers stock availability, so I'm looking forward to seeing how the cascade compares to the next hop type.
I'm trying to keep it fairly simple atm so that I can gain a better understanding of the impact of the various ingredients on the final result.

Again, thanks for all your input.
Hope you have a grand weekend.
Keep well
 
OP
Saffersa

Saffersa

Member
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
23
Reaction score
4
lol, you'll find my tips quite often are wrong as you get to know me, i punched it into beersmith....now i'm thinking, outside of the 'style'.. looks like the right color, but i still think it would be to sweet for a 'plain good beer' and i'd probably throw 4oz's of roast barley into it to roughen it up....that also would put the color right in dead center for an APA according to beersmith also....

edit: and i have never gotten good with hops.....
Hi again Bracconiere

Hey, at least you have tips to give - my equally novice brew buddy asks me and I just mime typing on a keyboard when I dont know, which is a lot.

The addition of roast barley I can totally understand, given that this batch will be quite golden evidently.
Would this be in addition to the current grain bill, or maybe by reducing the Caraamber by half and dropping the Carapils altogether?
Tbh I'm not the biggest fan of coffee, not in beverage or food. I know, I'm weird.
Would maybe adding some chocolate malt to the grains counterbalance the coffee notes, and if so how much?
Thanks so much for your help.
Take care.
 

Gnomebrewer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
2,455
Reaction score
1,254
Location
Hobart
If you've already got the carapils, you might as well use it. I just don't think it does anything! It won't hurt though, and don't waste it.

It's great to try the same/similar recipe with different hops, to get to know them. I really like centennial (more than cascade) but don't like chinook. Centennial/cascade combo is even better.
 
OP
Saffersa

Saffersa

Member
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
23
Reaction score
4
If you've already got the carapils, you might as well use it. I just don't think it does anything! It won't hurt though, and don't waste it.

It's great to try the same/similar recipe with different hops, to get to know them. I really like centennial (more than cascade) but don't like chinook. Centennial/cascade combo is even better.
Hi Gnomebrewer
I've done reading and have decided to go with the Centennial for the next 2 batches ordered.
I think I might have enough Cascade left over from the current 2 batches to stick away safely and keep to use with some left over Centennial from the upcoming, so I'm looking forward to trying the combo.

If I'm really disciplined, I might even manage to keep back a few bottles of each of the 3 variations for cross comparison purposes: 1L- Cascade-centric, 1L - Centennial-centric and 1L - Cascade/Centennial mix. Going to be so much fun
 
OP
Saffersa

Saffersa

Member
Joined
May 28, 2020
Messages
23
Reaction score
4
Sorry me again
I do not mean to keep bothering you- promise.
Have been doing some homework, and I think I've come across what the person who gave me the original recipe and grain bill was trying to achieve:
"A common practice is to use caramel malts for color and flavor and add Briess Carapils® to increase body and mouthfeel without changing to color, flavor, or final gravity." - Briess product info.
This would account for the inclusion of Caraamber and Carapils, correct?
But I now wonder why they were at equal quantities.
Surely you would lean heavier on the Caraamber and go much lighter on the Carapils, say 80/20?
What am I missing?
Or as you say- it just doesn't do anything.
If you wanted to Caraamber, use it- what uniqueness does the Carapils bring to the flavour profile?
 

bracconiere

Jolly Alcoholic
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 19, 2018
Messages
6,884
Reaction score
2,879
Location
S.AZ
Hey, at least you have tips to give

it's the internet, it's full of them....like panning for gold, you just got to look for the paydirt!

i'm a big coffee fan...but i do take it with milk, and cocoa...do you like hot chocolate? some body else would have to say how to integrate cocoa nibs of cocoa powder into it, if that's more your thing....i know even more outside 'style' specs....beersmith doesn't give it as a ingeident, so i'm not sure how much for the right color....

as you gain experience you'll crank out what you want easy! i'm just going by my personal tastes...


(P.S. Choclolate malt, is just really dark crystal....
 

Gnomebrewer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
2,455
Reaction score
1,254
Location
Hobart
"A common practice is to use caramel malts for color and flavor and add Briess Carapils® to increase body and mouthfeel without changing to color, flavor, or final gravity." - Briess product info.
This would account for the inclusion of Caraamber and Carapils, correct?
It would. That's what carapils is supposed to do, I just don't think it really does (not much anyway). It used to be in nearly every recipe posted, now it's not so common, so I guess others feel the same way.

Caraamber will give some colour, caramel flavour, body and mouthfeel. Like I said earlier though, just watch the quantities. Personally, I like smaller quantities of darker coloured crystal, or a blend of light and dark.
 

bracconiere

Jolly Alcoholic
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 19, 2018
Messages
6,884
Reaction score
2,879
Location
S.AZ
Not really. Chocolate is roasted, and has roasted (coffee, chocolate, bitter) flavours. Dark crystals can be bitter, but have dark fruit and toffee flavours.


i've always been under the assumption, that chocolate and black patent were mashed in the kernel before roasting thus producing carmelization of the sugars? roast barley is unmalted.....(taste at least has always backed up my thought?)


i googled "Dark Crystal Malt", and looks like a english sorta thing, and i've never used it....at 80L, the description says it's just kilned longer.....maybe i'll have to pick up a 5'r and try it out...

what would you think of some Special B in a APA? i've always thought it tasted really 'roasted nutty'....
 

Gnomebrewer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
2,455
Reaction score
1,254
Location
Hobart
what would you think of some Special B in a APA? i've always thought it tasted really 'roasted nutty'....
I love special B - it's one of my favourite grains. I've used it in an APA and really enjoyed it, but it was a bit out of style (not that I care about that). It's got a bit of acrid roastiness to it, but also dark, dried fruits and a bit of rumminess.
 

dwightr8

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2010
Messages
63
Reaction score
19
Location
Lyndale, WA
Top