oxygen-impermeable serving lines

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SanPancho

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you talking about the flow control qd's from the same group? i think williams sells them. i know somebody posted about the recently (you?). but havent seen a bunch of reviews yet. but between the two you're down only 3ft? thats pretty sweet.

my experience with this stuff is that it did not want to expand and slide over larger barbs/fittings. maybe we just didnt get it hot enough. we definitely didnt have anything like a reamer to help expand it. maybe those two are the key. daytripper seems to say you can heat that sucker up and get a 5mm ID over a 3/8 barb which should be at least 9mm. im skeptical, but once i get off my ass and find that damn heat gun i'll see what's what.

in any case, i dont have a draft tap setup, i just use picnic taps. so im all in for the flow control qds and a few feet of tubing if that cleans up my cooler and stops the oxidation.
 
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stickyfinger

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as the OP, I heartily endorse the direction of this thread! ha ha.

I use the 4mm ID EVAbarrier exclusively and I agree it is awesome stuff. Super easy to work with, bends and coils like a dream, and I get pretty much perfect pours @ 12psi with 6'6" lines. they coil up neatly and can sit on top of the keg in between the handles. You would have to leave the tap sitting unused for an extended period of time for oxygen ingress to cause any noticeable change in your beer, and even in that case the tiny inner diameter means you would waste maybe an ounce of beer at the most. If that isn't good enough for you then go ahead and hard pipe your setup with stainless tubing and flare fittings. That should work out well.
 

day_trippr

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Reviewed the recommended lengths for each diameter? Ranges from 5 to 6 feet at 4mm to 20-25ft for 6mm which is not quite 1/4”. But 1/4” vinyl is usually good for 15 to 20 ft. That’s a longer length for a slightly smaller diameter.

I don't know where you get the idea that 1/4" PVC tubing is "good for 15 to 20 ft" as that diameter requires a lot closer to 40 feet assuming typical kegerator conditions and a 12 psi CO2 pressure.

Try playing with the only line length calculator worth using: Determining Proper hose length for your Kegerator

4 mm is 0.1574798"
5 mm is 0.1968498", a slightly wider bore than 3/16" so one would expect slightly longer lengths to match standard PVC performance.
6 mm is 0.2362198", a bit skinnier bore than 1/4" so one would expect a bit shorter lengths to work vs PVC...

Finally, as always, use caution accepting line length vs performance claims at face value. I've seen ridiculous configurations that were claimed to provide "perfect pours"...

Cheers!
 

day_trippr

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here is a SS flow control quick disconnect. I had never heard of that. that would be awesome for putting on a keg and attaching a tap right to it for serving at parties with no beer line, no? not that there will be any parties in the forseeable future. :(

Keg Land Stainless Flow Control Ball Lock Threaded Fitting

There are problems with those flow control connectors: they induce a minimum resistance that might be too high for many configurations...

Cheers!
 
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Better to create natural backpressure via the flow resistance of a small diameter or longer tubing to prevent CO2 breakout rather than a single point of restriction. I would expect the venturi effect to cause some foaming so I can't imagine you could connect a faucet directly to the disconnect. Maybe it works with a super low serving pressure, 3-4 psi.

Disclaimer: I'm new to kegging.
 

SanPancho

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I don't know where you get the idea that 1/4" PVC tubing is "good for 15 to 20 ft" as that diameter requires a lot closer to 40 feet assuming typical kegerator conditions and a 12 psi CO2 pressure.

Try playing with the only line length calculator worth using: Determining Proper hose length for your Kegerator

4 mm is 0.1574798"
5 mm is 0.1968498", a slightly wider bore than 3/16" so one would expect slightly longer lengths to match standard PVC performance.
6 mm is 0.2362198", a bit skinnier bore than 1/4" so one would expect a bit shorter lengths to work vs PVC...

Finally, as always, use caution accepting line length vs performance claims at face value. I've seen ridiculous configurations that were claimed to provide "perfect pours"...

Cheers!


1/4 vinyl is 0.65lb to .85 resistance per foot. depends on which brand, wall thickness.
12psi, minimal height difference, and you're at anywhere from 14-15 to 18-19feet. add a foot or two for safety.

so keep your calculator. we were taught to do the math. it never fails.
 

SanPancho

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the thread referred to above about the kegland flow control disconnects had one guy who got them to work with his faucets connected directly to the qd.

he ended up using a foot of tubing since he said it was super touchy and hard to dial in with direct connection. the one foot of hose he used made it way easier to dial it in permanently. that was the general gist, if not his exact post.
 

day_trippr

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1/4 vinyl is 0.65lb to .85 resistance per foot. depends on which brand, wall thickness.

cough<bs>cough
That's ridiculous - where did you get that number?

so keep your calculator. we were taught to do the math. it never fails.

hahahahaha! Right - you're off to a great start with that insane resistance figure.

I'll stick with the work of an actual physics phd, thanks...

Cheers! (Like I said earlier, I've seen ridiculous claims. Thanks for proving my point so quickly! :D)
 

SanPancho

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It's ethylene-vinyl-acetate (a.ka. EVA).

Teflon would be even better as far as oxygen permeability goes but the tubing would be stiff as hell to the point of being impractical as beverage line because of the huge bend radius.
happened to find a packing slip at the bottom of box with tubing scraps in it, says right under the EVA tubing line item - has a CA prop 65 warning for chemicals including Di-n-butyl phthalate (DBP).
 

SanPancho

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cough<bs>cough
That's ridiculous - where did you get that number?



hahahahaha! Right - you're off to a great start with that insane resistance figure.

I'll stick with the work of an actual physics phd, thanks...

Cheers! (Like I said earlier, I've seen ridiculous claims. Thanks for proving my point so quickly! :D)
show these to your phd clown.




Cough. Cough.
 

day_trippr

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You're not helping your case here, and this is why we turn to people that actually know how things work, rather than people who comes across some random number.

The only way to actually come up with a useful resistance figure is to know the conditions - like the pressure used for a given flow rate.

Saying "this tubing has a flow resistance of .85 pounds per foot" means literally ZERO without knowing the pressure used.

Similarly, the oft-stated "2-3 psi per foot" canard historically given for 3/16" ID tubing was equally "wrong" from the jump because it is context-free - just like your .85 psi per foot - and thus is the source of probably half the "Help! My pours are all foam!" threads here.

At 12 psi, the resistance per foot of ANY tubing is going to be dramatically less than the same tubing spec just below burst pressure conditions. And I guarantee you that for 1/4" ID PVC driven at 12 psi your .85 psi/foot number is ridiculous...

Cheers!
 

day_trippr

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btw, don't just point somewhere and go "See!" because you just make yourself part of the problem.

This issue has existed since someone completely misinterpreted some tubing performance spec and completely ignored the part that said "in this pressure range typically used for beverage dispensing expect to see this range of equivalent resistance". Literally 99% of "guidance" provided on the internet followed the same canard like sheep - including that stupid Micromatic Draft Beer Quality handbook.

It's everywhere - except for one place that gets it right...

Cheers!
 

doug293cz

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happened to find a packing slip at the bottom of box with tubing scraps in it, says right under the EVA tubing line item - has a CA prop 65 warning for chemicals including Di-n-butyl phthalate (DBP).
DBP is a liquid, so it can't be used as a liner. It is used as a plasticizer in other polymers to make them more flexible. It could be used as a plasticizer in the outer or inner layer, or it could just be a minor contaminate left over from manufacturing the other polymers used.

Brew on :mug:
 

SanPancho

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You're not helping your case here, and this is why we turn to people that actually know how things work, rather than people who comes across some random number.

The only way to actually come up with a useful resistance figure is to know the conditions - like the pressure used for a given flow rate.

Saying "this tubing has a flow resistance of .85 pounds per foot" means literally ZERO without knowing the pressure used.

Similarly, the oft-stated "2-3 psi per foot" canard historically given for 3/16" ID tubing was equally "wrong" from the jump because it is context-free - just like your .85 psi per foot - and thus is the source of probably half the "Help! My pours are all foam!" threads here.

At 12 psi, the resistance per foot of ANY tubing is going to be dramatically less than the same tubing spec just below burst pressure conditions. And I guarantee you that for 1/4" ID PVC your .85 psi/foot number is ridiculous...

Cheers!
interesting how the term "insane" doesnt seem to apply to you. the brewers association of america, filled with educated folks (even phds!!), put out a draft quality manual. tubing specs, with those calculations, work. everwhere. every time. six days and sunday. and somehow you're 1000% sure its wrong, i.e. that literally decades of effective usage has all been..... a fluke?

and yet im the one making insane statements? ok. i see. guy on the internet vs literally the entire brewing industry. yessir, that's an easy choice.

so i tell you what- how about we agree to disagree?

you go on believing that you and your phd buddy and the magical calculator are the only ones in this wicked land who know the secret physics.

i'll stick with the specs and math that have produced perfect pours the first time, in our bars and restaurants and brewpubs, the ones the AB-educated local draft techs use, the ones that the american Brewers Association uses, that manufacturers use, that world famous local beer bars use, and which havent ever failed us.
 

day_trippr

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And yet, the consistency of favorable resolution to the literally hundreds of folks that came to HBT with pour problems after switching to the advised one foot of 3/16" ID tubing per psi defies all of that. Time after time after time.

Whatever, I've beaten this drum enough that a discerning reader will hopefully avail themselves of the tools to success and avoid the pratfalls that your conventional wisdom sets...

Cheers!
 

Cavpilot2000

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you talking about the flow control qd's from the same group? i think williams sells them. i know somebody posted about the recently (you?). but havent seen a bunch of reviews yet. but between the two you're down only 3ft? thats pretty sweet.

my experience with this stuff is that it did not want to expand and slide over larger barbs/fittings. maybe we just didnt get it hot enough. we definitely didnt have anything like a reamer to help expand it. maybe those two are the key. daytripper seems to say you can heat that sucker up and get a 5mm ID over a 3/8 barb which should be at least 9mm. im skeptical, but once i get off my ass and find that damn heat gun i'll see what's what.
Yes, those same flow control QDs (bought from Williams). I went that route with my kegerator instead of FC faucets. They are awesome, but they do impose some additional restrictions, which is only a problem if you need to run really long lines (like storage in the basement with serving upstairs). In something like a kegerator, it's perfect because even with those FC QDs open full-throttle, I only need 3 feet of 4mm beer line at about 12 PSI.
To fit the 4mm over a 1/4" barb (I doubt it would go any bigger, especially not 3/8" with 4mm), I use hot water and a nail set. The nail set is simple and cheap and has a graduated taper that I use to expand the tube until it slips over the 1/4" barb.
And yes, having 36-42 inch beer lines is awesome. No excess, no coils of tubing, no fuss.
 

Bobby_M

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show these to your phd clown.




Cough. Cough.

Well, with a domain like Kegworks, a blog post must be right. Over the last 10 years on HBT, there's probably been over 1000 new threads along the lines of "help, beer foamy". In every case where the OP finally listened to the people suggesting they are using the wrong line diameters and/or lengths and finally put the longer line on came back and reported success. Regarding all the people that report personal experience, failures and successes with different line types and lengths, what motive would they have to mislead on a forum? As a vendor for 10 years, I've demoed 20+ different tubing brands. I've sold over 500,000 feet of tubing, sometimes 10ft at a time. Most of those times were someone replacing a crusty line on commercial kegerator and when I told them they needed 10 feet to prevent foaming they ALWAYS say, "yeah, I just thought home kegerators were foamy". Do you want to get it right the first time or do it your way and suffer the foam lest you have to admit defeat rebuy in shame?
 

SanPancho

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Well, with a domain like Kegworks, a blog post must be right. Over the last 10 years on HBT, there's probably been over 1000 new threads along the lines of "help, beer foamy". In every case where the OP finally listened to the people suggesting they are using the wrong line diameters and/or lengths and finally put the longer line on came back and reported success. Regarding all the people that report personal experience, failures and successes with different line types and lengths, what motive would they have to mislead on a forum? As a vendor for 10 years, I've demoed 20+ different tubing brands. I've sold over 500,000 feet of tubing, sometimes 10ft at a time. Most of those times were someone replacing a crusty line on commercial kegerator and when I told them they needed 10 feet to prevent foaming they ALWAYS say, "yeah, I just thought home kegerators were foamy". Do you want to get it right the first time or do it your way and suffer the foam lest you have to admit defeat rebuy in shame?
the point of the links are citations/references showing resistance of 1/4 vinyl tubing as .65 to .85. Exactly as I stated. Nothing more
 

doug293cz

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the point of the links are citations/references showing resistance of 1/4 vinyl tubing as .65 to .85. Exactly as I stated. Nothing more
The problem with your references is they don't show where the resistance numbers came from. They don't reference an authoritative source. Fluid Dynamics is settled and well understood science. If you are going to argue against physics, you better have some very bullet proof data to back you up. You haven't shown that.

Brew on :mug:
 
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I hope someone publishes data on the flow resistance of EVAbarrier. I think it could be extrapolated with a little experimentation but it would be cool to have hard data. I'm actually kinda surprised that KegLand didn't provide that from the outset.
 

Cavpilot2000

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Why do you need hard data on the flow resistance of the EVA Barrier? Just run a line a little longer than you expect you'll need and then trim it until it's right. You'll waste a few feet, but the stuff is so cheap who cares? It's not like you don't make tweaks to calculated line length for every other tubing out there.
5 minutes of trial and error is as good as all the data in the world.
 

eric19312

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I don't think any of the balancing calculators know about this EVA barrier tubing. Here is @Bobby_M 's page - he tested and 5.5 feet of 4mm tubing is fine for 9-14 PSI serving pressure. I think he was originally saying 7' so when I installed that is what I did. It is balanced just fine. I get nice pours and keep my serving pressure at 12 PSI and serving temp at 39F. Just forget about the calculators and buy this stuff.


I also did my gas lines to eliminate O2. I also replaced all barbs with the duo tite fittings. They are not that expensive and I thought likely to last longer and less likely to leak than stretching the tubing.
 

SanPancho

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The problem with your references is they don't show where the resistance numbers came from. They don't reference an authoritative source. Fluid Dynamics is settled and well understood science. If you are going to argue against physics, you better have some very bullet proof data to back you up. You haven't shown that.

Brew on :mug:

thats Why we agree to disagree.
because the problem with engineers is they always think they know everything and are never wrong. Even when they ignore essential Ideas about tubing, yet claim to understand the physics. And especially when they refuse to explain why real world experience shows something works, despiite their claims to the contrary.
 

SanPancho

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I don't think any of the balancing calculators know about this EVA barrier tubing. Here is @Bobby_M 's page - he tested and 5.5 feet of 4mm tubing is fine for 9-14 PSI serving pressure. I think he was originally saying 7' so when I installed that is what I did. It is balanced just fine. I get nice pours and keep my serving pressure at 12 PSI and serving temp at 39F. Just forget about the calculators and buy this stuff.


I also did my gas lines to eliminate O2. I also replaced all barbs with the duo tite fittings. They are not that expensive and I thought likely to last longer and less likely to leak than stretching the tubing.
I know morebeer got their length recommendations from the supplier. Whether it was calculated/tested or just trial and error wasn’t clear.
 

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stickyfinger

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i have been watching some KegLand videos today and checking out products. They are really innovative! Have some cool looking stuff - those tiny cheap secondary regulators and other stuff. I think these "pluto guns" are what i would be interested in. I have been using picnic taps coiled on top of my kegs in my beer fridge for simplicity, ability to soak them easily in cleaner, keep the beer ice cold, but I think these would be a very cheap upgrade for my picnic taps, lol. Too bad they are out of stock. I can get the barbed one to try it out i guess and then get the duotight ones when i upgrade my entire tubing system. i should be able to just coil the EVABarrier up and rest the pluto gun on top of each of my kegs.

Nylon Reinforced Black Pluto Dispensing Gun (duotight compatible)
 

kevink

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I just got 4mm ID EAVbarrier over a 10mm (0.394") barb no problem. This kind of opens up possibilities for people wanting to use the 4mm tubing on their gas side.
 
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day_trippr

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You might want to describe your actual process for posterity sake, because when I fit the 5mm ID line over a 3/8" barb (slightly skinnier than your 10mm) I needed to use both a heat gun and a swaging tool.

1589056723096.png


With the tool (or something similar that won't screw up the liner) it just takes time to keep expanding the end until it can slip over the barb (heat, stretch, cool, repeat)...

Cheers!

[edit] fixed broken image
 
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kevink

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You might want to describe your actual process for posterity sake, because when I fit the 5mm ID line over a 3/8" barb (slightly skinnier than your 10mm) I needed to use both a heat gun and a swaging tool.

View attachment 679518

With the tool (or something similar that won't screw up the liner) it just takes time to keep expanding the end until it can slip over the barb (heat, stretch, cool, repeat)...

Cheers!

Two things are key. Having the right size tools and not using too much heat. I dipped about 3/4" of tubing and the tool into 175 degree water for 5 seconds and then stretched it with the punch on the left. I then did the same thing with the punch on the right. I then did it again, but instead of a punch I inserted the barb. You just have to work your way up in size. You'd never be able to push a 10mm barb in 4mm tube without first opening it up.

Water temp seems very important. I first tried it with near boiling water, but it made the tube so soft that when I tried to insert anything, it just squished up and folded. It needs some strength to resist folding yet still be soft enough to stretch.

20200509_151024s.jpg
 
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