oxygen-impermeable serving lines

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

stickyfinger

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
2,250
Reaction score
592
Location
Hudson Valley
I'm sick of wasting the first few oz of beer every time I pour for the first time for an evening to get rid of the oxidized beer in the line. However, I also just coil up my beer line on top of my keg and use a picnic tap in my keezer to eliminate having to use beer taps and for simplicity. Is there oxygen impermeable beer line that I can coil up and put on top of my keg in the keezer or is it all so stiff that that's not an option? I guess if the stiff impermeable stuff is really that good, I could put on a collar and taps finally...
 

day_trippr

Structural Duct Tape Sales Engineer
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
38,661
Reaction score
21,859
Location
Stow, MA
Go forth and invest in EVAbarrier tubing for both your beer and gas lines and be forever happy with the decision.
If you're switching from conventional solid PVC, you shall be amazed...

Cheers!
 
OP
OP
stickyfinger

stickyfinger

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
2,250
Reaction score
592
Location
Hudson Valley
will i be able to coil the tubing into a coil that can rest on top the keg though? i'm assuming so based on your enthusiastic response! thanks!
 

day_trippr

Structural Duct Tape Sales Engineer
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
38,661
Reaction score
21,859
Location
Stow, MA
Hahahaha! You could coil this tubing around pretty much anything. Check out my post here:

Then go through that thread Accuflex Ultra 235 vs Kegland EVA barrier
You'll learn everything you need to know :)

Cheers! (yes, I'm an unabashed fanatic about the tubing and the whole PTC system :))
 

SanPancho

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
2,830
Reaction score
951
Location
West Coast Island in the Bay
that stuff is super slick on the inside so its restriction is less. you're gonna need much longer coils to get the same amount of restriction.

that said, they have three different sizes, and you can go down in size to generate more restriction. but likely you'll have to buy new fittings on your disconnects as that stuff doesnt really stretch like vinyl does. mostly they use it with the push-connect type fittings.

edit- didnt mean rigid as in it wont bend, but that it wont stretch much when trying to use barb type connections.
 
Last edited:

day_trippr

Structural Duct Tape Sales Engineer
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
38,661
Reaction score
21,859
Location
Stow, MA
Seriously, read that thread, because it's chock full of info (both of you - because @SanPancho missed something I think).

For example, EVAbarrier tubing comes in 4, 5 and 6 mm ID. 5mm would be close to conventional 3/16" ID and require roughly the same length per PSI as solid PVC, but the 4mm ID tubing allows lengths of 5.5-6 feet for dispensing beer at ~11-12 psi. When I switched over, suddenly the 12 foot long coil stacks atop my kegs shrunk to a couple of turns before heading for the tower.

Also, I was able to get the 5mm ID line over a 3/8" barb! So, yeah, it can stretch just fine. Read that thread!

Cheers!
 

SanPancho

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
2,830
Reaction score
951
Location
West Coast Island in the Bay
Seriously, read that thread, because it's chock full of info (both of you - because @SanPancho missed something I think).

For example, EVAbarrier tubing comes in 4, 5 and 6 mm ID. 5mm would be close to conventional 3/16" ID and require roughly the same length per PSI as solid PVC, but the 4mm ID tubing allows lengths of 5.5-6 feet for dispensing beer at ~11-12 psi. When I switched over, suddenly the 12 foot long coil stacks atop my kegs shrunk to a couple of turns before heading for the tower.

Also, I was able to get the 5mm ID line over a 3/8" barb! So, yeah, it can stretch just fine. Read that thread!

Cheers!

i meant to say its not stretchy, i didnt mean rigid as in it wont bend. it definitely bends a nice tight radius.

how in the hell did you get 5mm over a 3/8 barb? we used some of this on our taps and it did NOT want to stretch. had to swap out for the push fittings.

a 3/8 barb- im guessing is probably like 9mm. i'm having trouble believing that. nearly double the ID of the tube....
 

day_trippr

Structural Duct Tape Sales Engineer
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
38,661
Reaction score
21,859
Location
Stow, MA
Look here: over on the right side that's a 3/8" barb that came with my Micromatic nitro reg, with the 5mm ID line:

gas_lines_01-jpg.654425


All it took was some judicious use of a heat gun, but a hair dryer or even hot enough water would probably work.

Just stop, and take 5 minutes to read the freakin' thread already!

Cheers! :D
 

troyp42

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2012
Messages
537
Reaction score
61
Location
Melbourne
Go forth and invest in EVAbarrier tubing for both your beer and gas lines and be forever happy with the decision.
If you're switching from conventional solid PVC, you shall be amazed...

Cheers!
Why gas lines as well? Doesnt the gas in the line under pressure keep the O2 out?
 
OP
OP
stickyfinger

stickyfinger

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
2,250
Reaction score
592
Location
Hudson Valley
if i were to bet, i'd think that some O2 molecules are going to get through the barrier and make their way into the flow stream that goes into the keg. The higher pressure of the CO2 inside the line might help to repel some of the O2 molecules and send them back out of the tubing but some are going to get in and make their way to the beer. I'd love to see an p-chem calculation on this! I don't leave my CO2 connected to my kegs ever for this reason (and also to prevent slow leaks from draining my CO2 cylinder.)

Why gas lines as well? Doesnt the gas in the line under pressure keep the O2 out?
 

troyp42

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2012
Messages
537
Reaction score
61
Location
Melbourne
if i were to bet, i'd think that some O2 molecules are going to get through the barrier and make their way into the flow stream that goes into the keg. The higher pressure of the CO2 inside the line might help to repel some of the O2 molecules and send them back out of the tubing but some are going to get in. I'd love to see an p-chem calculation on this!
I suppose the question is would it be enough O2 to cause an issue in the beer or not? I swapped all of my beer lines over to 4mm EVabarrier tubing and its awesome. I have a coil of line approx 1.5 M long and it gives me the right amount of restriction to keep my reg at around 12 PSi and pour a decent beer with little foaming.
 
OP
OP
stickyfinger

stickyfinger

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
2,250
Reaction score
592
Location
Hudson Valley
yeah, the beer line is way more important most likely. the beer line is just sitting there with beer in it being bombarded by O2 constantly. it would be an interesting study. hook up a cylinder to a keg with regular vinyl and then use the EV line on the other. let them sit for months and see if there is a difference.
 
OP
OP
stickyfinger

stickyfinger

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
2,250
Reaction score
592
Location
Hudson Valley
hey, if i want to stick with the picnic taps in my keezer, what do you think about squeezing the 4mm EV line over picnic tap barbs? I think they are 1/4"? I guess if I buy from bobby at brewhardware he can pre-spread the tubing so it goes in more easily. sounds dirty.
 

day_trippr

Structural Duct Tape Sales Engineer
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
38,661
Reaction score
21,859
Location
Stow, MA
Man, you can lead a horse to water, but...

I used 4mm ID for all my beer lines, but went with 5mm ID line for gas just to make it easier to fit them over my existing 1/4" barbed 6-way manifold in my keezer. I could have gotten the 4mm over those barbs but I needed a crapton of gas line anyway (a keezer and three fridges).

As the OD is the same as the 4mm line I used for all of the beer runs, I used the same 1/4" flare - 8mm tubing PTC connectors for all of my ball lock connectors and the manifolds that had 1/4" flare valves. 39 of those in all :)

Cheers!
 

kevink

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Messages
1,198
Reaction score
324
Location
PA
I don't leave my CO2 connected to my kegs ever for this reason (and also to prevent slow leaks from draining my CO2 cylinder.)

What kind of kegs and what kind of disconnects are you using? Every time you reconnect a Corny quick disconnect, you introduce O2 into the keg. You might be better off leaving them connected.
 

day_trippr

Structural Duct Tape Sales Engineer
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
38,661
Reaction score
21,859
Location
Stow, MA
Why gas lines as well? Doesnt the gas in the line under pressure keep the O2 out?

No, the partial pressure gas laws ensure it doesn't actually matter what gas or what pressure is inside the tubing (except for oxygen itself).
To the degree that the tubing prevents molecular ingress, oxygen will find its way in, independent of other gas pressure influences.

So it's all about slowing ingress, period, and EVAbarrier right now is the best you can get in a highly usable form...

Cheers!
 

kevink

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Messages
1,198
Reaction score
324
Location
PA
Does anyone actually know what the "proprietary" inner layer is? I don't understand why vendors don't use Teflon lined tubing for beer and gas lines. The tubing already exists. Maybe Evabarrier is and they're just not saying. I have used Teflon lined tubing for gas lines for certain parts of my brew/fermentation system. Maybe I'll try it in my keezer, too.
 

day_trippr

Structural Duct Tape Sales Engineer
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
38,661
Reaction score
21,859
Location
Stow, MA
Sadly, since the one time I managed to stumble across some performance filing specific to the proprietary lining (which motivated me to replace every beer and gas line in my humble brewery) I've never managed to find that url again. Tried a few times, no joy. Not sure if my Google-Fu degraded or they pulled the link. It could still be out there - tbh, if I ran the company I'd make it part of the marketing campaign...

btw, it's definitely not Teflon...

Cheers!
 

kevink

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Messages
1,198
Reaction score
324
Location
PA
Sadly, since the one time I managed to stumble across some performance filing specific to the proprietary lining (which motivated me to replace every beer and gas line in my humble brewery) I've never managed to find that url again. Tried a few times, no joy. Not sure if my Google-Fu degraded or they pulled the link. It could still be out there - tbh, if I ran the company I'd make it part of the marketing campaign...

btw, it's definitely not Teflon...

Cheers!

Do you know who makes Evabarrier?
 

day_trippr

Structural Duct Tape Sales Engineer
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
38,661
Reaction score
21,859
Location
Stow, MA
Nope. From all appearances it's manufactured for KegLand but I don't remember seeing by whom.
But I do recall enough of what I saw to know the inner layer is something "other" than anything else I've seen on an O2 permeability table...

Cheers!
 

Vale71

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
3,632
Reaction score
2,008
It's ethylene-vinyl-acetate (a.ka. EVA).

Teflon would be even better as far as oxygen permeability goes but the tubing would be stiff as hell to the point of being impractical as beverage line because of the huge bend radius.
 

Vale71

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
3,632
Reaction score
2,008
Do you know who makes Evabarrier?
Some Chinese factory? As a matter of fact I got my EVA tubing directly from China as Kegland doesn't have a European reseller or distributor.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2016
Messages
4,810
Reaction score
5,720
Location
Chicago
I use the 4mm ID EVAbarrier exclusively and I agree it is awesome stuff. Super easy to work with, bends and coils like a dream, and I get pretty much perfect pours @ 12psi with 6'6" lines. they coil up neatly and can sit on top of the keg in between the handles. You would have to leave the tap sitting unused for an extended period of time for oxygen ingress to cause any noticeable change in your beer, and even in that case the tiny inner diameter means you would waste maybe an ounce of beer at the most. If that isn't good enough for you then go ahead and hard pipe your setup with stainless tubing and flare fittings. That should work out well.
 

kevink

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Messages
1,198
Reaction score
324
Location
PA
It's ethylene-vinyl-acetate (a.ka. EVA).

Teflon would be even better as far as oxygen permeability goes but the tubing would be stiff as hell to the point of being impractical as beverage line because of the huge bend radius.

Teflon lined is not really that bad. With careful routing it should not be an issue. I could see most people complaning about it, though, forgetting they are sacrificing some user friendliness for ultimate performance. I think I'll give it a shot for my gas side first since I already have some EVAbarrier coming.
 

NewJersey

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
1,374
Reaction score
635
Location
Boonton
I use the 4mm ID EVAbarrier exclusively and I agree it is awesome stuff. Super easy to work with, bends and coils like a dream, and I get pretty much perfect pours @ 12psi with 6'6" lines. they coil up neatly and can sit on top of the keg in between the handles. You would have to leave the tap sitting unused for an extended period of time for oxygen ingress to cause any noticeable change in your beer, and even in that case the tiny inner diameter means you would waste maybe an ounce of beer at the most. If that isn't good enough for you then go ahead and hard pipe your setup with stainless tubing and flare fittings. That should work out well.
I always laugh when I see ANY part of a homebrew/serving setup hardpiped
 

Vale71

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
3,632
Reaction score
2,008
The EVA layer is the gas barrier layer. The liner is only there because EVA is water-permeable and cannot have direct contact with water-based solutions. If they made gas-only EVA line they could forgo the liner completely, provided the gas is guaranteed water-free. I have no idea what the inner liner is made of.
 

kevink

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Messages
1,198
Reaction score
324
Location
PA
From Kegland:

"Outter Barrier - The outter barrier has accurately extruded tolerances and made from an EVA material. It also seals well when used with various John Guest, DuoTight or other push in fittings. The outter barrier gives the tubing excellent kink resistance so the line is able to bend around a tight radius without kinking. "

"Inner Barrier" - The inner barrier is made from a proprietary polymer that has excellent gas barrier. The significantly better barrier properties means your beer is better protected from oxygen and also has a better barrier to CO2 loss."

EVABarrier 4mm(5/32) x 8mm(5/16) Double Wall EVA (12meter Length in Bag) Beer Line / Gas Line
 

day_trippr

Structural Duct Tape Sales Engineer
Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
38,661
Reaction score
21,859
Location
Stow, MA
The EVA layer is the gas barrier layer. The liner is only there because EVA is water-permeable and cannot have direct contact with water-based solutions. If they made gas-only EVA line they could forgo the liner completely, provided the gas is guaranteed water-free. I have no idea what the inner liner is made of.

Based on what I've seen I do not believe that is correct...

Cheers!
 

AlexKay

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2020
Messages
1,061
Reaction score
2,650
Location
South Bend
No, the partial pressure gas laws ensure it doesn't actually matter what gas or what pressure is inside the tubing (except for oxygen itself).
To the degree that the tubing prevents molecular ingress, oxygen will find its way in, independent of other gas pressure influences.

So it's all about slowing ingress, period, and EVAbarrier right now is the best you can get in a highly usable form...

Cheers!

This is a (completely true) statement about equilibrium: eventually, you will have the same partial pressure of oxygen inside and outside, regardless of the CO2 pressure.

Equilibrium doesn’t necessarily tell you anything about kinetics, and I suspect that the CO2 absolutely matters here — it will take much longer for oxygen to traverse the pore network when that network is full of CO2.
 

Cavpilot2000

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2017
Messages
1,561
Reaction score
1,107
Location
Boston, Unterfranken
I too use 4mm EVA Barrier lines for my beer and 5mm for gas. The 4mm fits over a 1/4" barb if you soak it in hot water for a few seconds and use something to spread it (I use a nail set).
With the 4mm tubing you don't need much length (my beer lines are about 3-3.5 feet long.
 

Cavpilot2000

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2017
Messages
1,561
Reaction score
1,107
Location
Boston, Unterfranken
that stuff is super slick on the inside so its restriction is less. you're gonna need much longer coils to get the same amount of restriction.

that said, they have three different sizes, and you can go down in size to generate more restriction.
Not really. I use the 4mm on 1/4" barbs and my beer lines are about 3'6" long. That definitely doesn't fit into the "need much longer coils" theory.
 

SanPancho

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
2,830
Reaction score
951
Location
West Coast Island in the Bay
Not really. I use the 4mm on 1/4" barbs and my beer lines are about 3'6" long. That definitely doesn't fit into the "need much longer coils" theory.
Reviewed the recommended lengths for each diameter? Ranges from 5 to 6 feet at 4mm to 20-25ft for 6mm which is not quite 1/4”. But 1/4” vinyl is usually good for 15 to 20 ft. That’s a longer length for a slightly smaller diameter.
 

Cavpilot2000

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2017
Messages
1,561
Reaction score
1,107
Location
Boston, Unterfranken
Reviewed the recommended lengths for each diameter? Ranges from 5 to 6 feet at 4mm to 20-25ft for 6mm which is not quite 1/4”. But 1/4” vinyl is usually good for 15 to 20 ft. That’s a longer length for a slightly smaller diameter.
Ah, I see where you got that then. But in reality, I don't think anybody is using 6mm for beer lines with EVA, everyone I've talked to are using 4mm (a tough but doable fit on 1/4" barb) or 5mm (the recommended size for 1/4" barb).

My point is with the OP worried about how to stash long line runs, it is irrelevant with a smaller tube (again, I have 3' to 3'6" lines with 4mm).
In the interest of full disclosure, I am running flow control ball lock QD's, which restrict flow even more, but are great for that occasional keg that gets over-carb'd. Anyway, if your concern is what to do with long lines, you can eliminate that issue pretty easily.
 
Top