Oxygen Free Process-Is this a Big Deal?

[Morrey]

I have become friends with a talented pro-brewer who began brewing in his garage, then partnered with his home brew buddy to build a very nice operation producing some of the finest craft beers I've had. I have taken several beers to him for sharing, and while he is generally complimentary, he asked me how much oxygen exposure I am allowing into my beer. I read old HBT threads where some of the regulars are duking it out saying yes O2 exposure matters, and others saying no it doesn't. I feel my brewer friend may be identifying a flaw, and in my opinion, I need to get this issue resolved. He is detecting something in my beer he feels is O2 related. He also does LODO brewing but this is a semi related subject for another day.

I have a 14G Ss Brewtech uni tank on order to arrive in a week or two. I'll be able to do most everything O2 free including carbing in tank and transferring to keg with no O2 exposure. My only concern now is how can I dry hop in keg w/o allowing O2 into the fermenter? There is a 3" TC port on the tank's lid that I can use to drop in my mesh strainer tube filled with hops...but this will allow at least some O2 into the tank. I feel there will be a CO2 blanket covering the beer, so hopefully a quick open and close with the 3" port wont have a serious impact. BUT, it sorta defeats the purpose of O2 free thinking.


Maybe I could take a 10" RV water filter housing and fill it with cone hops (need to rig up some sort of internal strainer) and slowly push beer thru it when CO2 pressure transferring from tank to keg. This will retain the oxygen free integrity and (MAY?) also give a hop boost similar to dry hopping.

I suppose this is opinion based but distilling down the above into two questions:

Is oxygen exposure as detrimental as we may think?
Will pushing beer thru hops in a filter housing be similar to dry hopping?

Thanks for helping me think thru this.

 

[TheAleRunner]

Commercial breweries still have to open the tank to add the dry hops. Just do it as quickly as you can.

 

[bobeer]

I never sweat this stuff. The only 02 exposure my beer gets is when I rack it from fermentor to keg. I have been dry hopping the 2nd day into fermentation then racking to the keg on top of more dry hops. by the time you purge the keg when you're force carb'ing it you're pushing out most of the 02 anyway.

I might be going by "bro-science" but I've never had any oxidation issues.

Did he say what the flaw tasted like he was experiencing in the flavor of your beer?

If you were going to push your beer through a hop-back just make sure you do it before fermentation. Otherwise, if you do it post fermentation, you'll be aerating your beer unless you're pushing it through via a closed pressurized environment. I like to keep it simple so I just dry hop in the fermentor during and after fermentation as well as in the keg. You could build a randall too and run the beer through hops as you're pouring it into a glass.

 

[dyqik]

There is no such thing as a CO2 blanket that blocks O2. Gases don't work like that, they diffuse into one another. The "blanket" metaphor is nonsense.

However, it does take time for O2 to diffuse into the CO2 filled environment in the headspace of the fermentor. Opening quickly (but not so quickly so as to cause turbulence that mixes air and CO2 at the top of the fermentor - slide the covering sideways if possible), and dropping in dry hops will not introduce much O2.

But there are a few ways you can avoid adding O2/oxidation when dry hopping:
a) dry hop in a purged keg. I put my dry hops in the serving corny keg and purge it before doing a closed transfer.
b) dry hop before fermentation completes, or prime for carbonation when you dry hop - the yeast will eat up any O2 that gets in. But you may get NEIPA style biotransformation going on.

or c (the crazy option) ) come up with a dry hop load-lock that you can put the hops in, and purge with CO2 before doing a closed drop of the hops into the fermentor. Something with a butterfly valve and triclover connections. It's roughly how we put wafers into ultra-high vacuum deposition chambers.

 

[oujens]

Add the dry hops with 4-6 points of gravity remaining. Any oxygen introduced by the hops will be consumed by active yeast.

 

[dyqik]

Expanding on option C as a thought experiment:

1) Mount a 3" triclover ball valve on the top port of your fermenter, and ferment.
2) Take two 3" triclover offset tee fittings and set them up similarly to a triclover RIMS tube, and fit the side ports with gas in and out fittings.
3) Place the "RIMS tube" on top of the of ball valve.
4) Insert your dry hops in a mesh tube dry hop container that will fit through the ball valve, and place the container inside the "RIMS tube".
5) Cap the top end of the "RIMS tube".
6) Purge the tube and hop container with CO2.
7) Open the ball valve and allow the dry hop container to drop into the tank.
8) Close the valve and remove "RIMS tube".

Way more work and expense than is really necessary to keep O2 under control, but it would work...

For bonus points, you could use a vacuum pump to evacuate the load-lock between each CO2 purge cycle to make purging more effective.

 

[Morrey]

Did he say what the flaw tasted like he was experiencing in the flavor of your beer?

Actually no, he didn't come right out and say I taste cardboard or anything like that. When we discussed process, he was aware that I am opening my fermenter to add dry hops, then again to manually rack beer into keg. By no means is my old system O2 free, but this new uni tank is going to change that for the most part.

There is no such thing as a CO2 blanket that blocks O2.

slide the covering sideways if possible), and dropping in dry hops will not introduce much O2.

My CO2 blanket myth can be put to bed. I like the suggestion to slide the TC cap off quickly sideways as this wont create as much vacuum or turbulence. Cool idea.

Expanding on option C as a thought experiment:

1) Mount a 3" triclover ball valve on the top port of your fermenter, and ferment.
2) Take two 3" triclover offset tee fittings and set them up similarly to a triclover RIMS tube, and fit the side ports with gas in and out fittings.
3) Place the "RIMS tube" on top of the of ball valve.
4) Insert your dry hops in a mesh tube dry hop container that will fit through the ball valve, and place the container inside the "RIMS tube".
5) Cap the top end of the "RIMS tube".
6) Purge the tube and hop container with CO2.
7) Open the ball valve and allow the dry hop container to drop into the tank.
8) Close the valve and remove "RIMS tube".

Way more work and expense than is really necessary to keep O2 under control, but it would work...

For bonus points, you could use a vacuum pump to evacuate the load-lock between each CO2 purge cycle to make purging more effective.

With the new uni tank soon to become my main fermenter, I will reduce almost all of the O2 issues I have had before. I still like the idea of 100% O2 free, so this concept has merit. The way you discussed adding in the wafers with a load-lock is awesome.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Who is he? I know a lot of low oxygen brewers. FYI oxidation is not all cardboard and sherry, any loss of flavor is oxidation.

http://www.********************/

Dry hopping should be half way down on that page.

 

[Morrey]

Who is he? I know a lot of low oxygen brewers. FYI oxidation is not all cardboard and sherry, any loss of flavor is oxidation.

http://www.********************/

Dry hopping should be half way down on that page.

I would tend to think that oxidation, which I am bound to have in my old system due to all the open transfers, probably results in a general loss of flavor as you point out. Nothing specific perhaps, just an overall dulling of the profiles.

He uses SMB and I am just now learning a bit about LODO, oxygen control/management, and the process others know much more about than I know. Even though not specific to LODO brewing, I have a friend who shared a packet of Brewtan B. I am going to experiment with this additive and see if I can realize any of the benefits others mention.

 

[oujens]

I would tend to think that oxidation, which I am bound to have in my old system due to all the open transfers, probably results in a general loss of flavor as you point out. Nothing specific perhaps, just an overall dulling of the profiles.

He uses SMB and I am just now learning a bit about LODO, oxygen control/management, and the process others know much more about than I know. Even though not specific to LODO brewing, I have a friend who shared a packet of Brewtan B. I am going to experiment with this additive and see if I can realize any of the benefits others mention.

I cannot remember your setup but thought I should point out from personal experience that adding SMB and Brewtan B won't produce a LODO beer. The low oxygen forum had some data points from an experimental BIAB batch that seemed to strengthen the need to have a separate vessel to slowly underlet the mash. My two BIAB batches seemed to mirror the results with the exception that I had some sulfur notes. My next play will be to use the SMB/AA/BTB trifecta and dust off my cooler mash tun for underletting. Never thought I would touch that thing again. If it works I'll probably be investing in another kettle and customize it for recirculation.

Thought I would through that out there for consideration.

 

[Morrey]

I cannot remember your setup but thought I should point out from personal experience that adding SMB and Brewtan B won't produce a LODO beer. The low oxygen forum had some data points from an experimental BIAB batch that seemed to strengthen the need to have a separate vessel to slowly underlet the mash. My two BIAB batches seemed to mirror the results with the exception that I had some sulfur notes. My next play will be to use the SMB/AA/BTB trifecta and dust off my cooler mash tun for underletting. Never thought I would touch that thing again. If it works I'll probably be investing in another kettle and customize it for recirculation.

Thought I would through that out there for consideration.

I was reading in Denny's (Conn) blog that he uses BtB as a sort of stabilizer for the lack of better chemistry language. Kind of a quick and easy way to try a simple additive. If BtB works to hold hop and/or malt flavors brighter for a longer period of time, I'll probably be happy with this one major gain rather than reinventing my brewing setup.

I am currently BIAB and using Ss Brewbuckets FTSs temp controlled and these don't take well to pressure transfers. I have the 14G uni tank pre-ordered and arriving soon so this will be a game changer for me. I can now shift to an almost sealed system, so I am finalizing my thoughts going into the fermenter setup. With that in mind, I hope O2 elimination and BtB will help me hold flavors longer and brighter. Seems I am fading with age.....LOL, the beer, but maybe ME too!