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Oxidized beer?

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alexipas

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I've brewed close to 100 batches now, never had an oxidized beer. Now 3 of my last 5 have been. I've been attempting strictly hazy ipa's or neipa. The beer is brown and gross and have zero hope flavour. I assume this is oxidised? Please god someone tell me how this is happening.
It's happened when I keg and bottle. My only guess is I cold crashed it for to long. Normally I cold crash for 24hours but the oxidation ones were over a week in the fridge(I think)

Maybe this isn't even oxidization?
 

VikeMan

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My only guess is I cold crashed it for to long. Normally I cold crash for 24hours but the oxidation ones were over a week in the fridge(I think)
When you cold crash, what are you doing to prevent O2 getting sucked into the fermenter?
 
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alexipas

alexipas

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When you cold crash, what are you doing to prevent O2 getting sucked into the fermenter?
Is it embarassing to admit I just let the carboy suck in all the air in and the water inside my airlock?
This could be the issue though!!!! How do you fix the suckback??
 

VikeMan

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Is it embarassing to admit I just let the carboy suck in all the air in and the water inside my airlock?
This could be the issue though!!!! How do you fix the suckback??
You need to either pressurize the fermenter with CO2, or make sure what gets sucked back is CO2. Search on Mylar Balloon for an example of the latter. The former requires a vessel that can handle pressure.
 

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Pretty sure thats how many people do it. If you have a keg however I would transfer and crash in there. Heres one method I found thats a pretty simple setup assuming you can find the bladder.
 
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alexipas

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Pretty sure thats how many people do it. If you have a keg however I would transfer and crash in there. Heres one method I found thats a pretty simple setup assuming you can find the bladder.
Super intrigued. What are those bags called???
 
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alexipas

alexipas

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You need to either pressurize the fermenter with CO2, or make sure what gets sucked back is CO2. Search on Mylar Balloon for an example of the latter. The former requires a vessel that can handle pressure.
Would it work if I keg the beer, then pressurize it, bleed the air out a few times then cold crash? Then the next day force carb it?
 

VikeMan

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Super intrigued. What are those bags called???
Click to open in youtube and you can read about it in the description. It's the same as using a mylar ballloon, just a different type of "bladder."
 

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zero hope flavour
I don't have anything useful to add beyond the already excellent replies above. But if you're in the mood for Monday-morning beer humor (or humour as you might spell it), we've always found it a bit cathartic to name our bad brews appropriately. Our most recent being, "God Help Us Ale".
 

polica

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When you suck air back into your fermenter during cold crash, it is more likely that you introduced a microbial infection than any effect oxygen may have.
 
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alexipas

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Interesting that after 100 brews, you are now only getting this with IPAs. Makes me think you are picking up that oxygen through dry hopping.
I'm wondering that too. I think it's the effort I'm putting into neipas. After 24 hours of pure forum reading I think that I'm just drying hopping more than ever, cold crashing to long and the very high hopped beers don't like it. Any advice on how to dry hop without adding air?
 

VikeMan

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I'm wondering that too. I think it's the effort I'm putting into neipas. After 24 hours of pure forum reading I think that I'm just drying hopping more than ever, cold crashing to long and the very high hopped beers don't like it. Any advice on how to dry hop without adding air?
If you are a kegger, you can do a closed xfer into a purged keg containing the hops for whatever number of days you like, and then another closed xfer into the final purged keg and crash there.
 
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alexipas

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You could transfer to a keg and dry hop in the same keg. That way you could purge the headspace in the keg with CO2.
I like that idea. I've contemplated this. Just dry hop in a hop bag and toss it in? I'm not worried about off flavours from leaving the hops in there either. Beer doesn't last that long in my house.
 
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alexipas

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If you are a kegger, you can do a closed xfer into a purged keg containing the hops for whatever number of days you like, and then another closed xfer into the final purged keg and crash there.
Any issues when transfering to a keg before cold crashing? I'm worried about clogging my dip tube. I've only ever cold crashed the. Kegged. But I know this will solve my oxidizing issues
 

VikeMan

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I like that idea. I've contemplated this. Just dry hop in a hop bag and toss it in? I'm not worried about off flavours from leaving the hops in there either. Beer doesn't last that long in my house.
You might be interested to read this article by Scott Janish. It might provide some insight into what happens (and what doesn't) when hops are left in the beer for extended periods.

Any issues when transfering to a keg before cold crashing? I'm worried about clogging my dip tube. I've only ever cold crashed the. Kegged. But I know this will solve my oxidizing issues
I haven't had any issues. But needless to say, avoid picking up trub during the initial transfer.
 
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Ok last question. I'm pretty sure I want to also try a Mylar balloon full of co2 and cold crash. How do you know when to put the ballon on to collect CO2. And if I do it to late... How do I get CO2 from my tank into the balloon?
 

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Get yourself one of those corny keg lids with a tab on the inside for attaching a hop bag. Put a few sanitized glass marbles in the bag to weigh it down so the hops stay submerged. Then purge the headspace with CO2. Easy to do.
 

VikeMan

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Ok last question. I'm pretty sure I want to also try a Mylar balloon full of co2 and cold crash. How do you know when to put the ballon on to collect CO2. And if I do it to late... How do I get CO2 from my tank into the balloon?
You might find some ideas in this thread:
 

Vale71

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When you suck air back into your fermenter during cold crash, it is more likely that you introduced a microbial infection than any effect oxygen may have.
The air you introduce might contain beer spoilage bacteria or it may not. One thing it contains with 100% certainty (if it doesn't then anybody breathing it is going to be in trouble) is 21% oxygen and that will oxidize your beer.
 

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I don’t think exposing an acidic, CO2 saturated, non-agitated solution (beer) held at near freezing temperatures for a few days with air is going to lead to any significant levels of oxidation. If the air were being introduced vigorously at higher temperatures for an extended period of time, that would be a different story. Of course, there is no harm in limiting the exposure of oxygen at this point. My thought was to make sure you also do what you can to limit the introduction of microbes that may inhabit the moist, stale air of a chest style fermentation chamber.
 

VikeMan

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I don’t think exposing an acidic, CO2 saturated, non-agitated solution (beer) held at near freezing temperatures for a few days with air is going to lead to any significant levels of oxidation.
Oxygen is more soluble at lower temperatures. The O2 dissolves per Henry's Law, i.e. independently (not related to CO2) according to its own partial pressure. pH may have a small impact on O2 solubility - I'm not sure.

But exposure to air for "a few days" definitely leads to oxidation that will impact the beer. If you don't believe this, pour some beer into a glass, let it sit on your counter for a while, and watch the color change.
 
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alexipas

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Oxygen is more soluble at lower temperatures. The O2 dissolves per Henry's Law, i.e. independently (not related to CO2) according to its own partial pressure. pH may have a small impact on O2 solubility - I'm not sure.

But exposure to air for "a few days" definitely leads to oxidation that will impact the beer. If you don't believe this, pour some beer into a glass, let it sit on your counter for a while, and watch the color change.
So based on that could I get away with cold crashing for a shorter time? Minimize potential exposure? Any any know how long a 5 gallon batch takes to cool in a fridge ? I usually do 24 hours and keg. Wonder if I could be 12 hours or 16
 

VikeMan

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So based on that could I get away with cold crashing for a shorter time? Minimize potential exposure? Any any know how long a 5 gallon batch takes to cool in a fridge ? I usually do 24 hours and keg. Wonder if I could be 12 hours or 16
If you shorten the cold crash time, less stuff settles out. And any O2 sucked back is bad. I only said "a few days" in my response to @polica, because that's what he said would be ok.
 
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alexipas

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If you shorten the cold crash time, less stuff settles out. And any O2 sucked back is bad. I only said "a few days" in my response to @polica, because that's what he said would be ok.
Agreed 100% I'm wondering if it's not even worth cold crashing neipas and any heavily dry hopped beer. I want cloudy... And as long as a rack slowly I should be able to leave the hops that tend to clog my drip tube? Or is this crazy talk
 

VikeMan

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Agreed 100% I'm wondering if it's not even worth cold crashing neipas and any heavily dry hopped beer. I want cloudy... And as long as a rack slowly I should be able to leave the hops that tend to clog my drip tube? Or is this crazy talk
I don't cold crash hazy IPAs. I have to add though that I dry hop with the hops in a cage, so I don't really have to worry about hop particles.
 
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alexipas

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I don't cold crash hazy IPAs. I have to add though that I dry hop with the hops in a cage, so I don't really have to worry about hop particles.
Any cage or bag ideas for dry hopping in a glass carboy? I have some fine mesh bags I've used in the past that would work... I just fear that the hops are not getting the proper exposure from bags or cages vs loose
 

VikeMan

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Any cage or bag ideas for dry hopping in a glass carboy? I have some fine mesh bags I've used in the past that would work... I just fear that the hops are not getting the proper exposure from bags or cages vs loose
Well, I don't know of any cages that will fit into a carboy. Bags can, though they are a PITA to put in and worse to take out. (Have to cut the bag open and spill the contents (right before cleaning).)

It's true that if a cage/bag is tightly packed (by hops that have absorbed wort), that will effectively reduce contact. But if the hops remain more or less loose in the cage/bag, I don't think the cage/bag itself really hurts much.
 
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alexipas

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Update,
I went with a urine drainage bag. It feels like it was designed for this purpose. It even has a hose clamp built on the bottom hose! I'm excited for cold crash day!!!
 

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marc1

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Update,
I went with a urine drainage bag. It feels like it was designed for this purpose. It even has a hose clamp built on the bottom hose! I'm excited for cold crash day!!!
Just don't use that carboy handle while it's full.
 

VikeMan

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Uh oh.....dare I say I already have??!! Are they only for only empty ones?
IMO they are not even really safe for empty ones. A Brew Hauler type carrier is the way to go, IMO.
 

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no lie I did a NEIPA and it was dull orange and green tint but because I used a hop tea instead of dry hopping, damn its really good but it isnt the prettiest beer lol.
 

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What was your dry hoping technique? Are you introducing oxygen at this stage? Find yourself a tube type filter that fits through the carboy top.

Try a really large amount of hops at wirlpool/hopstand and something like a hop extract after fermentation. You can make up alot of the taste your after initially, put in way more than you think in the hop stand. Commercial brewers are putting a a large amount in these stands. Really have to filter out the veg particles before fermentation without removing aromas/oils

With more hop content, there is alot more that can become oxidized, could be from any process. How is your keg cleaning process?

I dont think you need to cold crash this style of beer, you may have better luck at filtering, before and after fermentation.


You have an opportunity to look at your process and figure out how you can get the hop flavor you are looking for without oxidizing your beer. Come up with a secondary process. Luckily, you dont really have to brew beer to do these experiements, you can just use commercial bottled 12 pak as a good sample to see all the effects. Add oxygen, decarb some, cold crash with and without a mylar bag. Its pretty cheap to do.
 

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OP, we look forward to hearing how the C02 bladder works for you. To VikeMan, instead of on the counter and in the light, I suggest putting that glass of beer in a refrigerator near freezing and in the dark. You'll be waiting awhile for the color change, which was my point. Instead of studying Henry's law it might be worthwhile to revisit the Gibbs free energy equation and something called singlet oxygen, which forms from triplet oxygen in the presence of light and is a very powerful oxidant that reacts with carbon carbon double bonds and will definitely cause color changes. Cheers!
 

Ogilthorpe2

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Update,
I went with a urine drainage bag. It feels like it was designed for this purpose. It even has a hose clamp built on the bottom hose! I'm excited for cold crash day!!!
FTR, there is a ready made device out there to accomplish the same thing....

 
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