Oxiclean vs PBW

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

JJFlash

Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Messages
23
Reaction score
1
Just my FYI:

I find that PBW works best for me at 140-160 degrees. Cold it does not seem to work as well, and seems to fizzle out quickly on its cleaning ability. Still use it hot for stainless steel lines and plate chiller in circulation.

Oxyclean seems to work fine cold, especially noticeable in glass carboys. Seems to last longer in cleaning ability. I keep a 5 gallon plastic bucket full of cleaning solution and toss the dirty gear in it to soak a while.
 

JABBY

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2013
Messages
82
Reaction score
4
Seems to me like alot of trial and error.
 

Majd

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2012
Messages
103
Reaction score
2
Location
Santa Clarita
Ok, thanks to all. I still need some help here. Oxi clean free? is that different than the Oxiclean that you buy from (lets say) smart and final? The one I bought had a stain remover printed on it, and blue colored dots or crystals in with the white stuff . See pictures attached.

Thanks

image.jpg


photo.jpg
 

Jeffinn

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
203
Reaction score
25
Location
Roseville
I'm glad there are smart people who have found alternatives. The ability to get what you need locally without taking it in the shorts is a definite plus. Worrying about the price of PBW (from one of the non-gouging retailers) seems like more trouble than I want though. At $35 for 8# it's not terribly bad when you figure how many uses you get out of that 8#, and how little that use now costs.

Don't get me wrong, it's not name-brand snobbery at all. It's just that if I place an order and I also get my PBW, I save time, I save money because I'm not driving on Saturday morning to get what I forgot to get when I should have bought it from Midwest or NB, and I'm not mixing things when I should be drinking beer and grinding grains.

Some folks are obviously more organized than I am and remember to ask their wife to get the Oxyclean and they remember to get the TSP @ the man-store. Awesome! I ain't that guy though so I just have a jug of the stuff I remember to order online whenever the mood strikes me. I am paying for that convenience and I'm okay with it. :)
Exactly! Whatever works. I find the cost of PBW to be marginal in the grand scheme of things.
 

mikescooling

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
278
Location
Chicago
The big 50lbs five gallon bucket of PBW cost about $130. The only thing about brewing I don't like it the clean up, so spending a dollar per brew days is no big deal. Makes a great gift to other brewers too.
 

Shooter

Almaigan Brewing Co.
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
4,553
Reaction score
280
Location
Dublin (No, not that Dublin)
Ok, thanks to all. I still need some help here. Oxi clean free? is that different than the Oxiclean that you buy from (lets say) smart and final? The one I bought had a stain remover printed on it, and blue colored dots or crystals in with the white stuff . See pictures attached.

Thanks
It's just the unscented version.
 

hasenman

Active Member
Joined
May 29, 2013
Messages
36
Reaction score
1
I use Up & Up (Target's house brand) Oxygen Cleaner. It is basically repackaged Sun Oxygenated Cleaner (confirmed via an MSDS request). According the MSDS, Sun OC is 50-70% Na Carbonate & 30-40% Na Percarbonate. I prefer the Sun to Oxiclean because the Sun doesn't have the blue "flavor" crystals.

Since my understanding is that PBW is 30% Na Metasilicate and the rest percarbonates, a 30-70 mix of TSP/90 (Red Devil) and Sun Oxygen is as close as you're going to get to PBW at the chemical level.

I use 4 oz./5 gal with outstanding results that mirror PBW with one exception - slight foam. The foaming is a bit bothersome, but can be controlled by adding some unscented dishwasher detergent (or other food-safe defoamer).

During my cleaning cycle, the solution comes into contact with my aluminum BK, but I've never had any issues with that... I have a great oxide layer built up, which I assume helps.
I've got 2 questions for anyone still feel like responding to this thread:

Would you (or anybody else) know whether 'partial sodium silicate' is an alternative or maybe even the same as 'sodium metasilicate'?

I don't live in the US and can't run down to ACE hardware or anything like that for the TSP/90.

2.) Is Oxiclean OK to use on kegs? I just got some kegs and don't want to damage them by trying this. Just thought I'd ask.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can answer this question..and willing to! :mug:
 

CB_in_Tokyo

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Feb 3, 2014
Messages
180
Reaction score
26
I can't answer number 1, but number 2 I can. Oxyclean is fine for kegs. I picked up a large number of kegs a few years back. One of the ones I was cleaning got forgotten and had Oxyclean in it for 2 years. It was fine.
 

mvanwie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
47
Reaction score
2
Location
Third Lake
I've got 2 questions for anyone still feel like responding to this thread:

Would you (or anybody else) know whether 'partial sodium silicate' is an alternative or maybe even the same as 'sodium metasilicate'?

I don't live in the US and can't run down to ACE hardware or anything like that for the TSP/90.

2.) Is Oxiclean OK to use on kegs? I just got some kegs and don't want to damage them by trying this. Just thought I'd ask.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can answer this question..and willing to! :mug:
Out of curiosity, are you in or somewhere close to China... a brief Googling seems to suggest that Sodium Metasilicate Pentahydrate and Sodium Metasilicate are both marketed as "partial sodium silicate" in that part of the world, the former commonly known as "Five Water Partial Sodium Silicate" and the latter, "Zero Water Partial Sodium Silicate."

In the U.S., Sodium Metasilicate is nearly always what is actually being referred to when someone uses the term Sodium Silicate, but they are not completely synonomous, as different silicates have different properties and characteristics.

Here's the best explanation I can find on sodium silicates:
https://final-test.oxy.com/OurBusinesses/Chemicals/Products/Documents/Silicates/silicate.pdf

Page 6 seems to suggest that, as detergents, Sodium Metasilicate and Sodium Metasilicate Pentahydrate can be used interchangeably. So provided you have one of the Zero Water or Five Water products, you should be good to go. The only material difference I see is that for our purposes here, we can store our generic PBWs using the anhydrous (Zero Water) metasilicate for a long period of time, whereas if you're using the pentahydrate (Five Water), you're going to want to mix only as needed.
 

OtisLamb

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
53
Reaction score
4
Location
Reno
Hi. I just attempted the removal of labels from purchased brown beer bottles.

Equipment Used:
Plastic 5 Gallon Bucket (used to contain laundry detergent)
Empty Beer Bottles (drank the beer to empty them)
PBW (Powder Brewery Wash, a non-hazardous buffered alkaline brewery cleaner)
Hot Water (out of the faucet)

My method was:
1. Fill the five gallon bucket with hot water adding 2 tablespoons of PBW during the fill.
2. Completely submerge the bottles in the water.
3. Leave the bottles submerged for 60 minutes.
4. Some of the labels fell off with no prompting; some had to be coaxed leaving small amounts of glue.
5. Rinse the bottles while in the PBW solution removing any left-over glue.
6. Rinse the bottles in clean water.
7. Let dry.

This method produced clean re-usable bottles.
As I have read various methods using Oxiclean, my next attempt will use Oxiclean, as it is much more friendly to the pocketbook. :rockin:
 

kcmobrewer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
676
Reaction score
90
Location
Kansas City
I soak all my bottles in oxiclean to get the labels off. I don't measure it or anything just add maybe a few tbsp to a bucket of hot water, stir it up and let the bottles soak. They labels literally fall off within an hour or two. No scrubbing needed, you will be able to get the adhesive off lightly rubbing it with your finger.

However I have been considering going to PBW for my brew equipment cleaning needs, buying it in bulk.
 

OtisLamb

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
53
Reaction score
4
Location
Reno
I soak all my bottles in oxiclean to get the labels off. I don't measure it or anything just add maybe a few tbsp to a bucket of hot water, stir it up and let the bottles soak. They labels literally fall off within an hour or two. No scrubbing needed, you will be able to get the adhesive off lightly rubbing it with your finger.

However I have been considering going to PBW for my brew equipment cleaning needs, buying it in bulk.
I have always used PBW. However; I have purchased Oxiclean for future use, due to costs.
 

Renoun

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2013
Messages
426
Reaction score
68
Location
Seattle (North End)
For those of you in areas with Fred Meyer's, QFC, or Kroger's stores I just bought some of the Kroger's store brand generic cleaner which is on the shelf next to OxiClean. Thankfully it is fragerence free since it is a 3.8lb container, rather than the 3lb container that OxiClean comes in for a couple of bucks less. If you happen to be shopping at a Fred Meyer they also sell 1lb bags of Red Devil TSP/90 in the paint department.
 

meis1212

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
45
Reaction score
2
Location
Portland
Just noticed that TSP/90 has a warning "do not use on glass." Do those of you that mix Oxiclean and TSP/90 use the mix to clean your glass carboys? Have you noticed any side effects?
 

atoughram

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
1,888
Reaction score
295
Location
Puyallup
For those of you in areas with Fred Meyer's, QFC, or Kroger's stores I just bought some of the Kroger's store brand generic cleaner which is on the shelf next to OxiClean. Thankfully it is fragerence free since it is a 3.8lb container, rather than the 3lb container that OxiClean comes in for a couple of bucks less. If you happen to be shopping at a Fred Meyer they also sell 1lb bags of Red Devil TSP/90 in the paint department.

I didn't even think to check there.... I've been looking for the Red Devil TSP/90 - I'll run by Freddies...
 

Leukass

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
178
Reaction score
4
I am out of PBW and need to clean a carboy and some kegs. I have this oxyclean - can i use it?
Doesn't smell like perfume or anything? - Sorry no idea why it is upside down

oxyclean.JPG
 

Leukass

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
178
Reaction score
4
Ok just checking it was ok it was oxy clean clear and or free


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 

atoughram

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
1,888
Reaction score
295
Location
Puyallup
Yes, you can use Oxiclean. It will work just as good. :tank:
Dont let it sit in there overnight though!!!

It will precipitate something onto the glass and you wont like. I only let Oxyclean soak for 3-4 hours max.

It still works just as good though!

Reminds me - for the first time I mixed three pounds of OC with a pound of TSP/90 - will that take care of the glass spotting if soaked for too long?

(Thanks for the tip on Fred Meyer - they had plenty of TSP/90!!)
 

Jupapabear

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2013
Messages
534
Reaction score
81
Location
Houston
I starsan my bottles after an overnight soak in oxiclean free, and it will clean the film right off for you. Just what I do. I only do this for label removal, usually when I'm limited on my time off.
 

403Brewer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
103
Reaction score
16
Location
Calgary
If you mix oxiclean free and PBW would that give you some of the benefits of the Red Devil additive? That stuff is hard to find in Canada and PBW costs $16 for 2 lb at my LHBS so its a rip off...oxiclean free is super cheap
 

Renoun

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2013
Messages
426
Reaction score
68
Location
Seattle (North End)
If you mix oxiclean free and PBW would that give you some of the benefits of the Red Devil additive? That stuff is hard to find in Canada and PBW costs $16 for 2 lb at my LHBS so its a rip off...oxiclean free is super cheap
Go read this thread for more details about the chemistry and a possible PWB clone from household/grocery chemicals.
 

mvanwie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2011
Messages
47
Reaction score
2
Location
Third Lake
PBW already contains the Red Devil ingredient. The whole point here is to substitute out the PBW, not create an adjunct for PBW.
 

Scubadude918

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2013
Messages
175
Reaction score
7
Location
Jackson
All I've ever used is Oxy Clean.

I still have the packet of PBW from my original starter kit.


____________________________
Primary: Cider
Primary: Kölsch
 

RmikeVT

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2012
Messages
905
Reaction score
158
Location
Baltimore
I use a mixture of 3 parts oxiclean and 1 part Red Devil TSP-90 it works great for cleaning everything, included my tile floors and grout.
 

HBngNOK

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
409
Reaction score
93
Location
Harrah
Dont let it sit in there overnight though!!!

It will precipitate something onto the glass and you wont like. I only let Oxyclean soak for 3-4 hours max.

.......

If you do get a film on the glass from a long Oxyclean soak, I've found that a white vinegar rinse will remove the precipitate.
 

Scubadude918

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2013
Messages
175
Reaction score
7
Location
Jackson
I've let it sit for like a week with no issue. Half to one scoop in 6.5 gal carboy.


____________________________
Primary: Cider
Primary: Kölsch
 
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
12
Reaction score
2
I've let it sit for like a week with no issue. Half to one scoop in 6.5 gal carboy.
OxiFree directions says 1 scoop per gallon... Always thought it was a bit much.




____________________________
CornyKeg1: St. Arnold Weedwacker :ban:
CornyKeg2: OxiFree
CornyKeg3: [Empty]
1/2 Corny: [Empty]
Fermenter1 (Carboy): Belgian Lavendar Wit @1.015
Fermenter2 (Carboy): Empty
 

OtisLamb

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
53
Reaction score
4
Location
Reno
Read your reply.

IMHO your using too much PBW. I use it at a rate of 2 tbls per 5 gal. This formula has worked perfectly well.

:drunk:

I'm trying to find my path here since switching from a plastic bucket to a Better Bottle. I've only tried PBW so far. It's 3/4oz per gallon, and at 5 gallons of water soaking in my fermenter, that is quite a bit of PBW (like 7-8 tablespoons). How do you go about not using so much?
 

atoughram

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
1,888
Reaction score
295
Location
Puyallup
I've let it sit for like a week with no issue. Half to one scoop in 6.5 gal carboy.
Must be a difference in water where you are at - at 24 hours I get precipitate on glass with straight oxy. I havent tried since I started putting tsp-90 in it though.
 

helibrewer

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Messages
4,168
Reaction score
488
Location
Wilmington
I've got 2 questions for anyone still feel like responding to this thread:

Would you (or anybody else) know whether 'partial sodium silicate' is an alternative or maybe even the same as 'sodium metasilicate'?

I don't live in the US and can't run down to ACE hardware or anything like that for the TSP/90.

2.) Is Oxiclean OK to use on kegs? I just got some kegs and don't want to damage them by trying this. Just thought I'd ask.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can answer this question..and willing to! :mug:
"meta" in this instance means dehydrated, so Sodium metasilicate is dehydrated (anhydrous) Sodium Silicate.
 

Renoun

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2013
Messages
426
Reaction score
68
Location
Seattle (North End)
Must be a difference in water where you are at - at 24 hours I get precipitate on glass with straight oxy. I havent tried since I started putting tsp-90 in it though.
I don't know about where Puyallup sources it's water but the water at my friend's place in Sumner is dramatically harder than Seattle water. Her water leaves mineral deposits all over the place which is never an issue up here.
 

atoughram

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
1,888
Reaction score
295
Location
Puyallup
I don't know about where Puyallup sources it's water but the water at my friend's place in Sumner is dramatically harder than Seattle water. Her water leaves mineral deposits all over the place which is never an issue up here.
Most of our water is (I'm on Firgrove Mutual) sourced from local wells and is a bit hard - its the same aquifer than Mountain Mist pumps water from. Ive talked to our water people and sometimes when the wells cant keep up, they tie in to Tacoma Water - which is straight from the Green River and Howard Hanson Dam and is softer.
 

RmikeVT

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2012
Messages
905
Reaction score
158
Location
Baltimore
will this TSP work?
You don't want to use actual TSP (Tri-Sodium Phosphate), you want Red Devil TSP-90 which isn't actually TSP in the chemical sense, it's Sodium Metasilicate. Easy to find on Amazon or Ace Hardware.
 

peterlonz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2011
Messages
78
Reaction score
7
Location
Gold Coast City
Seems like the lower cost solution meets with general approval.
My method may be of interest: Imake up a solution of about 1.5 ozs PWB to 5 litres.
But my Corny kegs are 19 litres!
So the method I have adopted for kegs (often left sealed but not cleaned for months) is:
1) Use about 0.5 gal of hot tap water & swirl around to dislodge stubborn yeast deposits then discard the contents.
2) Check carefully & if necessary use a brush with extended handle to remove any persistent deposits, then, thoroughly rinse out the contents with hot or cold water.
3) Now use all 5 litres of PWB solution to partly fill the keg. Swish about vigorously & the stand for a minimum of 30mins before reversing & standing upside down for a further 30 mins. Shake as frequently as possible during this time.
4) Then force the PWB solution out via the outlet tube & catch the contents for further use. You can use CO2 to force out the PWB or a low cost alternative is a US$8 modified garden spray pack - you just connect with the usual ball locks & pump sufficient to expel the PWB. This is cheap, no CO2 cost & it’s light & convenient.
5) The PWB solution should look clean & fit for re-use. Now add about 3 to 5 litres of hot tap water to rinse out the remains of the PWB . Shake vigorously & force the water out via the outlet tub as the above method.
6) Stand the kegs for best drainage & allow to thoroughly dry before refitting the lid.
Kegs are now fit for immediate use on demand.
Note: this is all quite time consuming, especially if, as I sometimes find, that I have 4 or 5 kegs to clean. I don’t know of any shortcuts & occasionally I have to repeat the process when I discover too late that one keg is not as clean as I’d like.
My cleanliness test is “do they look & smell clean”?
I have found the PWB solution stores well out of light, mine has lasted over 12 months & unless I mess up it remains largely uncontaminated.
I believe my kegs are clean but probably not technically sterile.
 

sillbeer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2012
Messages
487
Reaction score
114
Location
Utah
I've been using chlorine free Oxy Clean for the last couple years with good success. Occasionally I will mix a little TSP in with it. Lowes has TSP and it's pretty cheap. I always rinse several times when I'm done plus I use Star San on everything prior to fermenting or kegging. Same thing for my lines and pumps.
 
Top