Over hopped beer

Homebrew Talk

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Cheshire Cat

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Mar 10, 2023
Messages
1,296
Reaction score
2,836
Location
Warrington UK
I think most US IPA’s are over hopped I’m drinking a Mosaic IPA. With this hop schedule and it’s perfect.

Hops (100 g)

20 g (33 IBU) — Mosaic 13% — Boil — 60 min

20 g
(19 IBU) — Mosaic 13% — Boil — 15 min

30 g
(9 IBU) — Mosaic 13% — Aroma — 20 min hopstand @ 85 °C

30 g
— Mosaic 13% — Dry Hop — 4 days


Hopstand at 85 °C
 
I think most US IPA’s are over hopped
And I think that a hop schedule and IBU total are somewhat less than informative without knowing anything else about the beer. If that was a 4.5% session IPA then a lot of people might say that it's over-hopped. If it's an imperial it might be under-hopped. But if it's in the 7% range then I could believe that you're right and it is perfect.
 
I’m intrigued… tell us more.

I’ve also been leaning toward dialing back the massive WP and DH additions and actually using decent kettle additions, like your example.
 
I think most contemporary highly hopped ales have a pH and water problem that sets them up for hop burn and a gnarly hop finish. I seldom drink commercial beer, much less buy it, but I can't help but notice their reliance on calcium chloride.

Most contemporary high-IBU ales seem to lean rather heavily into calcium chloride. Bluntly, I'm not terribly fond of calcium chloride. I've never found it to lend its purported "roundness/fullness." To me, it always comes across as mineraly or harsh. Worse, I can't trust the stuff because it's so eager to get with atmospheric water and become chalk. As a guy that lives in a very humid climate...yeah, no thanks. How am I supposed to build a reliable recipe around an ingredient that slowly changes itself into something else?

Frankly, I prefer to get my chloride from non-iodized table salt because it's very stable and you can trust it. Better still, it really does round off an ale's flavor profile and lends substantial richness that calcium chloride, in my experience, cannot deliver. You want a big fat ale? Use salt.

Lastly, a particular drain that I've been circling around over the past ten years is this: you can get away with bloody murder, hops-wise, if you just counter your late hops with corresponding acid additions. Late hops additions do raise your pH and raised pH levels will make your hops taste harsher. I wish I could give a formula, but I can't. I'm still learning and iterating. I do not fully understand this, but I do know that a 1-2ml acid addition does a world of good at 15, prior to adding your finings and nutrients. I also know that large 5min and KO hops charges will bend your pH upward, despite your late acid addition. Adding a further 1ml charge along with yout 5min/KO charge seems to work.

Like I said, I don't have this figured out, but I'm making progress.
 
I think most contemporary highly hopped ales have a pH and water problem that sets them up for hop burn and a gnarly hop finish. I seldom drink commercial beer, much less buy it, but I can't help but notice their reliance on calcium chloride.

Most contemporary high-IBU ales seem to lean rather heavily into calcium chloride. Bluntly, I'm not terribly fond of calcium chloride. I've never found it to lend its purported "roundness/fullness." To me, it always comes across as mineraly or harsh. Worse, I can't trust the stuff because it's so eager to get with atmospheric water and become chalk. As a guy that lives in a very humid climate...yeah, no thanks. How am I supposed to build a reliable recipe around an ingredient that slowly changes itself into something else?

Frankly, I prefer to get my chloride from non-iodized table salt because it's very stable and you can trust it. Better still, it really does round off an ale's flavor profile and lends substantial richness that calcium chloride, in my experience, cannot deliver. You want a big fat ale? Use salt.

Lastly, a particular drain that I've been circling around over the past ten years is this: you can get away with bloody murder, hops-wise, if you just counter your late hops with corresponding acid additions. Late hops additions do raise your pH and raised pH levels will make your hops taste harsher. I wish I could give a formula, but I can't. I'm still learning and iterating. I do not fully understand this, but I do know that a 1-2ml acid addition does a world of good at 15, prior to adding your finings and nutrients. I also know that large 5min and KO hops charges will bend your pH upward, despite your late acid addition. Adding a further 1ml charge along with yout 5min/KO charge seems to work.

Like I said, I don't have this figured out, but I'm making progress.
That's interesting. So this means that a higher or lower pH at the time of boiling or heating the hops is somehow doing different things to the hops. I'm saying it this way because the boil pH does not carry over. As soon as the yeast really starts to work, it alternates the pH to whatever suits the yeast best. So it must be something that is happening while still being on the hot side, that changes the dissolved substances from the hops. Or maybe dissolves different substances at different pH.
 
I think most contemporary highly hopped ales have a pH and water problem that sets them up for hop burn and a gnarly hop finish. I seldom drink commercial beer, much less buy it, but I can't help but notice their reliance on calcium chloride.

Most contemporary high-IBU ales seem to lean rather heavily into calcium chloride. Bluntly, I'm not terribly fond of calcium chloride. I've never found it to lend its purported "roundness/fullness." To me, it always comes across as mineraly or harsh. Worse, I can't trust the stuff because it's so eager to get with atmospheric water and become chalk. As a guy that lives in a very humid climate...yeah, no thanks. How am I supposed to build a reliable recipe around an ingredient that slowly changes itself into something else?

Frankly, I prefer to get my chloride from non-iodized table salt because it's very stable and you can trust it. Better still, it really does round off an ale's flavor profile and lends substantial richness that calcium chloride, in my experience, cannot deliver. You want a big fat ale? Use salt.

Lastly, a particular drain that I've been circling around over the past ten years is this: you can get away with bloody murder, hops-wise, if you just counter your late hops with corresponding acid additions. Late hops additions do raise your pH and raised pH levels will make your hops taste harsher. I wish I could give a formula, but I can't. I'm still learning and iterating. I do not fully understand this, but I do know that a 1-2ml acid addition does a world of good at 15, prior to adding your finings and nutrients. I also know that large 5min and KO hops charges will bend your pH upward, despite your late acid addition. Adding a further 1ml charge along with yout 5min/KO charge seems to work.

Like I said, I don't have this figured out, but I'm making progress.
I've not come across this idea of adding acid in this way before. Is there stuff written about this?
 
Adjusting kettle ph is definitely a thing, especially in heavily hopped beers, for the reasons @Bramling Cross has mentioned. How much acid and all that will vary from brewer to brewer. Also fermenter ph adjustments can be made with large dry hop amounts. However, if your mash ph is on the lower end of the spectrum to start with, say 5.2, the kettle adjustments may be minimal or not necessary. Measuring ph throughout the process is good practice, I've just begun doing this myself and do not have much experience either. But it is a thing and a practice I will be following on the batch I'm brewing this weekend.
 
I think most contemporary highly hopped ales have a pH and water problem that sets them up for hop burn and a gnarly hop finish. I seldom drink commercial beer, much less buy it, but I can't help but notice their reliance on calcium chloride.

Most contemporary high-IBU ales seem to lean rather heavily into calcium chloride. Bluntly, I'm not terribly fond of calcium chloride. I've never found it to lend its purported "roundness/fullness." To me, it always comes across as mineraly or harsh. Worse, I can't trust the stuff because it's so eager to get with atmospheric water and become chalk. As a guy that lives in a very humid climate...yeah, no thanks. How am I supposed to build a reliable recipe around an ingredient that slowly changes itself into something else?

Frankly, I prefer to get my chloride from non-iodized table salt because it's very stable and you can trust it. Better still, it really does round off an ale's flavor profile and lends substantial richness that calcium chloride, in my experience, cannot deliver. You want a big fat ale? Use salt.

Lastly, a particular drain that I've been circling around over the past ten years is this: you can get away with bloody murder, hops-wise, if you just counter your late hops with corresponding acid additions. Late hops additions do raise your pH and raised pH levels will make your hops taste harsher. I wish I could give a formula, but I can't. I'm still learning and iterating. I do not fully understand this, but I do know that a 1-2ml acid addition does a world of good at 15, prior to adding your finings and nutrients. I also know that large 5min and KO hops charges will bend your pH upward, despite your late acid addition. Adding a further 1ml charge along with yout 5min/KO charge seems to work.

Like I said, I don't have this figured out, but I'm making progress.
What the salt replacement ratio for calcium chloride? 1:1? ... Calls for 3.67g of CC... How much salt? 3.67?
 
I've never worried about ph after boil. It's always mash ph I target. I'm curious now about post boil ph then a post wp ph check to see how much that wp changed it. I can't see it changing it drastically, but that's just a guess.
 
What the salt replacement ratio for calcium chloride? 1:1? ... Calls for 3.67g of CC... How much salt? 3.67?
Each calcium chloride molecule has two chlorine atoms and a molecular weight of 110.98 g/mole. Sodium chloride (one chlorine atom) mol. weight is 58.443. So about equal, weight-wise, for chloride addition. Getting down to tenths of a gram is probably too fussy for homebrewers.
 
Not to go too much off-topic, but I've been going crazy with pH lately. It certainly should be tracked throughout the entire process (If you're up for it). Especially with highly hopped beers. That small shift in pH can turn a dull harsh IPA into something bright and pleasant, or really bring out your malt flavors a bit more. It's something that could push that already good beer into a great beer.

I find targeting a lower pH in the boil for IPAs extracts brighter hop aromas and flavors with a less harsh bitterness. Most of the time, I will adjust during the pre boil so everything else falls in line and I land my final target pH without having to make any other adjustments. If i am using a lot of pilsner malt, then I may adjust towards the end of the boil (If needed) so the higher pH will help boil off DMS.

For my heavily hopped IPAs, I like to drop my my pre boil pH to about 4.8 - 4.9. My post boil pH usually stays about the same after all the kettle hop additions and sets me up to land around 4.2 - 4.3 final pH (post fermentation and dry hop). I like to drop the pH of my hoppy beers early. Not only to help extract bright hop aroma with less harsh bitterness, but to also lower the maillard reaction and keep the SRM on the lighter side. I like my IPAs to land around 4.2 - 4.3 final pH with an absolute max of. 4.5. I do find the lower final pH range has less astringentcy and lower hop burn after heavy dry hopping.

This is all my personal preference of course. YMMV.

Edit: All of my pH adjustments are made with phosphoric and lactic acid. Most of the time I'll use lactic in the mash, and then use phosphoric to adjust the kettle.
 
Last edited:
I've been going crazy with pH lately
So, looking back over your history of pH adjustments, have you converted measure-and-adjust to simple recipe elements, such as: add x ml of y% lactic acid solution 15 minutes before knockout? Or are you having loads of fun with your pH meter all through every brew?
 
Worse, I can't trust the stuff because it's so eager to get with atmospheric water and become chalk. As a guy that lives in a very humid climate...yeah, no thanks. How am I supposed to build a reliable recipe around an ingredient that slowly changes itself into something else?

Frankly, I prefer to get my chloride from non-iodized table salt because it's very stable and you can trust it. Better still, it really does round off an ale's flavor profile and lends substantial richness that calcium chloride, in my experience, cannot deliver. You want a big fat ale? Use salt.
You should try CaCl2 solutions. I have 33% w/w solution and it works fine. I've never come across any harshness from it, but my water is naturally high in Na so that could also mask it for me. I do agree that Na is good for roundness in beers. I get to 100 ppm in big stouts with very good results.
 
Not to go too much off-topic, but I've been going crazy with pH lately. It certainly should be tracked throughout the entire process (If you're up for it). Especially with highly hopped beers. That small shift in pH can turn a dull harsh IPA into something bright and pleasant, or really bring out your malt flavors a bit more. It's something that could push that already good beer into a great beer.

I find targeting a lower pH in the boil for IPAs extracts brighter hop aromas and flavors with a less harsh bitterness. Most of the time, I will adjust during the pre boil so everything else falls in line and I land my final target pH without having to make any other adjustments. If i am using a lot of pilsner malt, then I may adjust towards the end of the boil (If needed) so the higher pH will help boil off DMS.

For my heavily hopped IPAs, I like to drop my my pre boil pH to about 4.8 - 4.9. My post boil pH usually stays about the same after all the kettle hop additions and sets me up to land around 4.2 - 4.3 final pH (post fermentation and dry hop). I like to drop the pH of my hoppy beers early. Not only to help extract bright hop aroma with less harsh bitterness, but to also lower the maillard reaction and keep the SRM on the lighter side. I like my IPAs to land around 4.2 - 4.3 final pH with an absolute max of. 4.5. I do find the lower final pH range has less astringentcy and lower hop burn after heavy dry hopping.

This is all my personal preference of course. YMMV.

Edit: All of my pH adjustments are made with phosphoric and lactic acid. Most of the time I'll use lactic in the mash, and then use phosphoric to adjust the kettle.
I came to the same conclusion, but from a different perspective and purpose. I shoot for a mash of ~vicinity pH 5.2 +/- 0.1. For my source water and typical grist bill I can reach this with consistency by adding .025-0.50 pounds acidulated malt. There’s enough buffering in my water to have that locked in at :10 minutes after beginning the mash.

Unless there’s some wild rise in pH at the beginning of boil, I don’t make adjustments at that time and let it ride. Where I’ve modified my process however is in targeting finished beer (end of fermentation/pre-packaging). There I’m wanting to have pH 4.0~4.5, depending on style of beer and alcohol content.

I need to comment that over the years I’d read numerous sources, taken copious notes (that I could often not decipher or remember the non-footnoted source) which I eventually copied, organized and formatted into a usable brew day reference. In my notebook (source unknown) is a pH guideline for finished beer target values that says: lagers - 3.9~4.1; ales - 4.0~4.2; Mild/Dark - 4.1~ 4.3. For Low/No alcohol beers: ALWAYS < pH 4.3~4.5.

There’s an additional note that “High pH = low stability (pH > 4.5~4.8.”

I apologize for not having references, since this compilation was just from notes meant for my own personal use, but I will say that they were from reliable sources and/or published articles. Doesn’t make ‘em bulletproof, but might get ‘em pass the bullsh*t vetting.

Anyway, I first got into this mode of monitoring pH of finished beer when I started attempting Lo/No alcohol brewing, and carried it over into my other brew sessions. Through trial and error I found that I could estimate the actual finished pH by making acid adjustments in the final minutes of the boil that resulted in the desired final values. As little as 5 ml to as much as 15 ml of lactic acid was giving me the final target numbers I was seeking.

The differences in the brightness as well as long term stability was noticeable, without being tart or bitter. It has been a positive influence in achieving better overall results.

But since the original thread topic was about bitterness, it struck me that the total IBUs in the recipe were ~60 total, which hardly seems excessive for an American IPA, or even a British IPA for that matter. For years I have been making my first bittering a FWH or First Wort Hopping addition. The lower sub-boil temperature isomerization of alpha acids seems to smooth out the heavy hop bite that can make some beers seem overly bitter.

As others have suggested, a closer examination of the water profile and grist bill might offer the necessary information about Cl:SO4 bitterness ratios, but that’s a whole subject for another day!
 
Last edited:
So, looking back over your history of pH adjustments, have you converted measure-and-adjust to simple recipe elements, such as: add x ml of y% lactic acid solution 15 minutes before knockout? Or are you having loads of fun with your pH meter all through every brew?

I use Brun water to determine my mash pH and water profile. There isn't much out there to determine pre boil pH so sometimes I adjust blindly, little bit at a time until I reach my target. I then take notes to help me determine what i might need to add for future brews. Most of the time, I have an idea of where I mght land post fermentation. I've taken enough measurements with the yeaat strains that I frequently use to know where my pH needs to be post boil to get me where I want to be for my final pH.

EDIT: It is important to take notes as many yeast strains will drop pH less or more than others. After many notes on similar yeaat strains that i frequently use, I can predict where my final pH may land and adjust earlier on to hit my target pH. When I use a new strain, I take notes so I know what to expect next time around.
 
Last edited:
What the salt replacement ratio for calcium chloride? 1:1? ... Calls for 3.67g of CC... How much salt? 3.67?
I certainly wouldn't go 1:1.

It's something that I've been playing with for the past four years or so, gradually working my way upward. Currently, I'm running 3g in my 6gal batches of mild. With my DC tap water that works out to ~85ppm of sodium and ~140ppm of chloride w/o any calcium chloride. There's no sign of saltiness and I'm quite certain that could run 4g very safely. I'll likely do that later this year when I brew another mild. Two grams seems to be the sweet spot for German lagers, again using DC tap. For my fizzy yellow swills and hoppy ales 1g makes a noticeable difference--my COVID fizzy yellow swill project actually prompted me to start playing with table salt. Its absence really does make a difference.
 
I am rarely a salt user wrt food at the table. Just French Fries. And tbh I don't want to taste salt in my beer.

BUT...a low-ish dose of table salt has a remarkable softening effect, a desirable character for hazy ipas, and also opens sensory passages more, enhancing the perception of flavor.

I just scanned my repertoire of neipa recipes - all for 11 gallons to the fermentors - and the range of NaCl used is between 3.8 and 4.2 grams, without any perception of saltiness.

Cheers!
 
BUT...a low-ish dose of table salt has a remarkable softening effect, a desirable character for hazy ipas, and also opens sensory passages more, enhancing the perception of flavor.

100%. I like to target about 35 - 40 ppm of Na for my hazys. It definitely adds to mouthfeel and even adds to the perception of sweetness that you typically want in a hazy to help enhance that juiceyness.
 
Not to go too much off-topic, but I've been going crazy with pH lately. It certainly should be tracked throughout the entire process (If you're up for it). Especially with highly hopped beers. That small shift in pH can turn a dull harsh IPA into something bright and pleasant, or really bring out your malt flavors a bit more. It's something that could push that already good beer into a great beer.

I find targeting a lower pH in the boil for IPAs extracts brighter hop aromas and flavors with a less harsh bitterness. Most of the time, I will adjust during the pre boil so everything else falls in line and I land my final target pH without having to make any other adjustments. If i am using a lot of pilsner malt, then I may adjust towards the end of the boil (If needed) so the higher pH will help boil off DMS.

For my heavily hopped IPAs, I like to drop my my pre boil pH to about 4.8 - 4.9. My post boil pH usually stays about the same after all the kettle hop additions and sets me up to land around 4.2 - 4.3 final pH (post fermentation and dry hop). I like to drop the pH of my hoppy beers early. Not only to help extract bright hop aroma with less harsh bitterness, but to also lower the maillard reaction and keep the SRM on the lighter side. I like my IPAs to land around 4.2 - 4.3 final pH with an absolute max of. 4.5. I do find the lower final pH range has less astringentcy and lower hop burn after heavy dry hopping.

This is all my personal preference of course. YMMV.

Edit: All of my pH adjustments are made with phosphoric and lactic acid. Most of the time I'll use lactic in the mash, and then use phosphoric to adjust the kettle.
Hey thanks for listing out your pH targets. You have any thoughts on having a pH target for the start of the boil to improve the performance of hot break and then adjusting down before hop additions? I accept that FWH will mess with this practice.
 
Hey thanks for listing out your pH targets. You have any thoughts on having a pH target for the start of the boil to improve the performance of hot break and then adjusting down before hop additions? I accept that FWH will mess with this practice.

Generally low 5's is where I've seen good break formation. I believe a target of 5.2 is where you will see optimal break formation and is a good place to start in order for Irish moss or whirlfloc to work at its best if added in towards the end of the boil.

You can also keep your boil pH a bit higher for this reason and then adjust it lower right before whirlpool if adding a ton of hops at this stage. I've noticed that my starting pH and post boil pH do not change much with the amount of hops I use for IPAs in my boil/whirlpool (5 - 6oz total for 5 gallon batch). I can typically know that when I add this many hops my pre boil and post boil/whirlpool will stay about the same.

I only drop my pH low for my IPAs because the large amount of whirlpool and dry hops will bring it back up (I usually dry hop with about 10 - 12 oz T90/cryo mix for a 5 gallon batch). For all other beers, I like to keep my pre boil pH around 5.1- 5.4, but it depends on the yeast and grain bill as well. I like to keep it closer to 5.4 if using pilsner malt to help boil off DMS and then will drop it at the end of the boil if needed.
 
Back
Top