Ondea Pro Enzyme preliminary results

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rjmaillie

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(This was originally posted on the Zero Tolerance Facebook page. But not everyone uses Facebook and posts seem to get lost in the clutter over there, so I will be posting and updating here also).

This was my first brew day adding the Ondea Pro Enzyme to my mashing arsenal. Mashing schedule and dosing was based on data from Jason Yerger, John Paul Bierly, and the excellent blog posts from Otherwise Brewing and GlutenFreeHomeBrewing.com. Here are the brew day details, results and observations.

- 3 gallon batch brewed on a Grainfather. Grain bill was 75% rice malt, 15% buckwheat malt, 10% millet malt. Enzyme additions were Termamyl at 1.5 ml/lb, Ondea Pro at 1.5ml/lb, Diatase at .25ml/lb. Mash schedule was as follows:
  • Mash in at 168° with Termamyl and held for 30 minutes to gelatinize grains.
  • Lower to 140°, add Ondea Pro and hold for 60 minutes.
  • Raise to 150°, add Diatase and hold for 45 minutes.
  • Mashout at 170° for 15 minutes.
- With the rice malt set at 22 ppg in my brewing software, I’m usually at 130% extraction efficiency using just Termamyl and Diatase. With the additional 140° Ondea step it went up to an obscene 150%. My brew house efficiency was an expected 90%, but ended up at 106%. I think it’s time to change those PPG numbers.
- It’s possible to gelatinize GF grains at 168° in just 30 minutes (with Termamyl). I’ve never gone above that in three plus years of GF homebrewing and have always had good results. For this particular brew day the iodine test was clear at the end of the 140° rest. I worry about tannin extraction if going above 170° particularly since I don’t adjust mash pH down until later in the process to allow the enzymes to work in or closer to their preferred range. The higher mash temps may also may be a contributing factor in the off flavors some get with pale rice malt.
- So far I’m really happy with the addition of Ondea with the only downside being I need to adjust all of my recipes to account for the greater efficiency! I’ll be back with more data and a sensory evaluation when the beer is done. Cheers!

04.21.20 Update
I have some preliminary results regarding fermentation and attenuation for two of the first beers brewed with Ondea Pro, and the mash schedule detailed above. Beer one fermented with Mangrove Jack M47 Belgian Abbey finished at 82% apparent attenuation and finished at 1012 from an OG of 1069. Beer two fermented with Mangrove Jack M21 Belgian Wit finished at 72% apparent attenuation with an OG of 1050 and FG of 1014. I did not have any attenuation issues that seem to be related to using only Ondea Pro as both were within expected ranges indicating the diastase enzyme helped increase attenuation. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary tasting the green un-carbonated samples. I'll have more updates once they are conditioned and carbonated.
 
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glutarded-chris

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This is very interesting. Thanks for sharing! I will get some Ondea on my next purchase. I have been using Termamyl and Diatase for some time now.

I have used either Safale US-05 or Saflager 34/70 and both attenuate to 1.004 to 1.008 with an OG typically in the range of 1.045 to 1.055. I don't think I have ever seen anything finish above 1.010 since I moved from sorghum years ago. Do you think you are able to finish higher because of a large percentage of rice malt?

I have typically used about 70% pale millet with pale buckwheat, pale rice and some roasted rice filling in the last 30 percent.

P.S. I would really like to become active in the Zero Tolerance group, but I HATE facebook. I stopped going in there a long time ago and Zero Tolerance is the only thing that might get be to go back. I really wish Zero Tolerance would find some better place!
 

skleice

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This is very interesting. Thanks for sharing! I will get some Ondea on my next purchase. I have been using Termamyl and Diatase for some time now.

I have used either Safale US-05 or Saflager 34/70 and both attenuate to 1.004 to 1.008 with an OG typically in the range of 1.045 to 1.055. I don't think I have ever seen anything finish above 1.010 since I moved from sorghum years ago. Do you think you are able to finish higher because of a large percentage of rice malt?

I have typically used about 70% pale millet with pale buckwheat, pale rice and some roasted rice filling in the last 30 percent.

P.S. I would really like to become active in the Zero Tolerance group, but I HATE facebook. I stopped going in there a long time ago and Zero Tolerance is the only thing that might get be to go back. I really wish Zero Tolerance would find some better place!
I'm with you in the facebook.thing. My account is solely for Zero Tolerance. It's a fake name, no friends, no data, etc. It is by far the best place for discussion. There have been some awesome experiments, data sharing and articles lately.
 
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rjmaillie

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I have used either Safale US-05 or Saflager 34/70 and both attenuate to 1.004 to 1.008 with an OG typically in the range of 1.045 to 1.055. I don't think I have ever seen anything finish above 1.010 since I moved from sorghum years ago. Do you think you are able to finish higher because of a large percentage of rice malt?
Chris, I don't think it has anything to do the type of malt because I also had low finishing gravity's when I first started doing the Termamyl/Diatase enzyme additions. I just think Diatase is super aggressive. So I started messing around with the volume, time and temperature for the Diatase addition to try to bring the FG up on the final product. I settled on .25 ml per pound of grain at 45 minutes before mash out and temperature ranges from150°-158°. That's what works for me on the Grainfather system, but I would just start reducing the time and volume until you get to where you want to be.

P.S. I would really like to become active in the Zero Tolerance group, but I HATE facebook. I stopped going in there a long time ago and Zero Tolerance is the only thing that might get be to go back. I really wish Zero Tolerance would find some better place!
I'm with you in the facebook.thing. My account is solely for Zero Tolerance. It's a fake name, no friends, no data, etc. It is by far the best place for discussion. There have been some awesome experiments, data sharing and articles lately.
I'm with Chris, I hate facebook and the only reason I went back is for the Zero Tolerance stuff. I'm old-school, so I much prefer the format here at HBT (which is why I posted). I also feel like the ZT facebook page sucked the wind out this forum, so we really don't have much choice.
 

skleice

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I agree that the Diastase & SEBAmyl L amounts have a direct correlation to final gravities. .25ml/lb is a good reference point. By adjusting these amounts (and using a less attenuative yeast) in can get some beers to finish as 1.020 if I want.
 

muddy1015

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I'm glad to hear you're getting good gelatinization at 168F for the rice, my most recent brew this past weekend I did the following, I know the rest times are longer than needed really but I've actually kind of enjoyed the long relaxed brewday after moving into GF brewing, feel like I get more done. But I do want to adjust my first rest down in temp and also mash out for a shorter amount of time just to try to avoid potential issues with tannins/astringency above those temps-

-180F rest for 60min with Termamyl (1.5mL/lb)
-140F rest for 60min with Ondea & Seba L (both (1.5mL/lb)
-170F rest for 60min

I did 40% pale rice, 32% pale millet, 16% flaked quinoa, 12% biscuit rice and ended up with 95% efficiency with the PPG set to 1.029 for both rice and millet. Really happy with all the results from Ondea so far
 

skleice

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Here are some great blog posts from Otherwise Brewing.


Also, Zero Tolerance just did a long interview with Aaron (Otherwise) and he shared lots of incredible info related to temps and enzyme amounts.

 

JMath

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While we're talking about finishing gravities, I will say that since I switched from AMG-300L to SEBAmyl-L, my beers have finished too high, even using way more enzyme than the manufacturer recommends.

On the topic of Ondea Pro and Otherwise brewing, last weekend I brewed a test batch to try several things at once.
  • 100% biscuit rice, mostly the new 4L variant and a couple pounds of the original
  • Ondea Pro in addition to Termamyl and SEBAmyl-L
  • Otherwise Brewing's enzyme dosage calculator shared by Aaron
  • Otherwise Brewing's mash schedule shared by Aaron
This is Aaron's mash schedule as I understood it. Hopefully he doesn't mind me sharing this since he explained it in the meeting.
  • Termamyl, 170F for 45 minutes, ramp to 180F over 15 minutes
  • Lower to 130F, add Ondea Pro and your other low-temp enzyme (SEBAmyl-L in my case)
  • 20 minutes at 130F, 40 minutes at 140F, mash out 170F
I did not achieve an OG that suggests the higher 29 PPG for rice malt, but closer to the original 21 PPG. I don't know if it has anything to do with the lower amounts of enzymes suggested by the calculator, the shorter schedule, or some other factor.

I am also curious whether the Ondea Pro will lead to a lower finishing gravity than I have been getting with Termamyl/SEBAmyl-L alone. If it doesn't, I will have to ditch the SEBAmyl-L for something else.
 

skleice

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While we're talking about finishing gravities, I will say that since I switched from AMG-300L to SEBAmyl-L, my beers have finished too high, even using way more enzyme than the manufacturer recommends.

On the topic of Ondea Pro and Otherwise brewing, last weekend I brewed a test batch to try several things at once.
  • 100% biscuit rice, mostly the new 4L variant and a couple pounds of the original
  • Ondea Pro in addition to Termamyl and SEBAmyl-L
  • Otherwise Brewing's enzyme dosage calculator shared by Aaron
  • Otherwise Brewing's mash schedule shared by Aaron
This is Aaron's mash schedule as I understood it. Hopefully he doesn't mind me sharing this since he explained it in the meeting.
  • Termamyl, 170F for 45 minutes, ramp to 180F over 15 minutes
  • Lower to 130F, add Ondea Pro and your other low-temp enzyme (SEBAmyl-L in my case)
  • 20 minutes at 130F, 40 minutes at 140F, mash out 170F
I did not achieve an OG that suggests the higher 29 PPG for rice malt, but closer to the original 21 PPG. I don't know if it has anything to do with the lower amounts of enzymes suggested by the calculator, the shorter schedule, or some other factor.

I am also curious whether the Ondea Pro will lead to a lower finishing gravity than I have been getting with Termamyl/SEBAmyl-L alone. If it doesn't, I will have to ditch the SEBAmyl-L for something else.
I also tried his mash and enzymes and fell well below my target OG. My last 2 batches have left me scratching my head, both with terrible efficiency. I'd like to move towards using more rice malt, but it hasn't been so successful this far.
 

glutarded-chris

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I am really intrigued by this discussion. I have been focused on PPG yield with enzymes and no matter what I got for a ppg, I always finished low no matter the yeast (Windsor, Nottingham, US-04, but mostly US-05). I don't think I have ever finished high since I have gone to AG. My batches have ranged from 18 ppg or 28 ppg yield but still finished low (OG ranging from 1.045 to 1060). Lately I have been fermenting with Saflager 34/70 and I cannot say I have gotten any different FG results.
 
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rjmaillie

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@JMath, I don't think SEBAmyl-L works well with rice malt for some reason. The caveat being this is completely anecdotal and just something I remember reading somewhere. I'm probably starting to sound like a broken record, but I swear by the Diatase sold by EC Krauss. It's aggressive AF but can be manged with time, volume, and temperature. I don't think Ondea will get you a lower finishing gravity either as there is nothing in that enzyme mix to suggest it will. The data sheets I have seen suggest it is relying solely on the existing beta amylase in unmalted barley for attenuation.

By the way, looking forward to your feed back on the 4L biscuit malt.
 
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rjmaillie

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I also tried his mash and enzymes and fell well below my target OG. My last 2 batches have left me scratching my head, both with terrible efficiency. I'd like to move towards using more rice malt, but it hasn't been so successful this far.
That is a head scratcher because that mash schedule isn't that different from what I've been using for the last four brew days and my efficiency has been fantastic using anywhwere from 50 to 80 percent rice malt. I still question the need to go that high and long for the gelatinization step, though. And keep in mind that that mash schedule works for Aaron and his system and grain bills, but may not work for everyone. Everyone has unique setups and processes that work specifically for them. What I'm trying to say is don’t completely change what has worked for you in the past because something new comes along, but incrementally add to your existing process to see what changes it makes.

If you haven't seen this data sheet yet, check it out. There's good information on the enzymes in Ondea Pro and their operating ranges. The good stuff starts on page 106.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiJ8ZPQ5KHpAhVslHIEHWaSD3UQFjAKegQIAhAB&url=https://wine.appstate.edu/sites/wine.appstate.edu/files/Enzyme%20Use%20in%20Beverage%20Production.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1pChp8YG3lFzgbcg5v8fL2

Edited to add additional thoughts.
 
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skleice

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That is a head scratcher because that mash schedule isn't that different from what I've been using for the last four brew days and my efficiency has been fantastic using anywhwere from 50 to 80 percent rice malt. I still question the need to go that high and long for the gelatinization step, though. And keep in mind that that mash schedule works for Aaron and his system and grain bills, but may not work for everyone. Everyone has unique setups and processes that work specifically for them. What I'm trying to say is don’t completely change what has worked for you in the past because something new comes along, but incrementally add to your existing process to see what changes it makes.

If you haven't seen this data sheet yet, check it out. There's good information on the enzymes in Ondea Pro and their operating ranges. The good stuff starts on page 106.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiJ8ZPQ5KHpAhVslHIEHWaSD3UQFjAKegQIAhAB&url=https://wine.appstate.edu/sites/wine.appstate.edu/files/Enzyme%20Use%20in%20Beverage%20Production.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1pChp8YG3lFzgbcg5v8fL2

Edited to add additional thoughts.
Thanks. My process has been extremely similar to yours because you were so helpful when I first began and we both use Grainfather. I've had similar results in efficiency as you too (90% without Ondea & 100+ with). I'm actually wondering if something is up with my latest bottle of Termamyl. I haven't changed anything too much, but last 2 brews were rough. I'm gonna place a new order and get another bottle of Termamyl and see if it makes a difference.
 

glutarded-chris

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Could also be the malt. Before I started using Termamyl I had a series of batches that were almost identical with respect to grain bill and mash schedule. One of them with a different shipment of grain had super good conversion. Went from 23 ppg to like 28 and I cannot see that I did anything to warrant such a jump. Had to be the malt. Could easily go the other direction. Legume and others get good results with unmalted grain, but I think they have to do an extra good job with gelatinization and enzymes. Could be if that batch of malt was not as good it behaved closer to unmalted grain. Just a thought. I would get new Termamyl anyway to be sure!
 

skleice

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Could also be the malt. Before I started using Termamyl I had a series of batches that were almost identical with respect to grain bill and mash schedule. One of them with a different shipment of grain had super good conversion. Went from 23 ppg to like 28 and I cannot see that I did anything to warrant such a jump. Had to be the malt. Could easily go the other direction. Legume and others get good results with unmalted grain, but I think they have to do an extra good job with gelatinization and enzymes. Could be if that batch of malt was not as good it behaved closer to unmalted grain. Just a thought. I would get new Termamyl anyway to be sure!
That's a good point. Both batches had this Termamyl and a new bag of biscuit rice.
 
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rjmaillie

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Thanks. My process has been extremely similar to yours because you were so helpful when I first began and we both use Grainfather. I've had similar results in efficiency as you too (90% without Ondea & 100+ with). I'm actually wondering if something is up with my latest bottle of Termamyl. I haven't changed anything too much, but last 2 brews were rough. I'm gonna place a new order and get another bottle of Termamyl and see if it makes a difference.
That's pretty frustrating. In the latest issue of Brew Your Own, in the Ask Mr Wizard section, Ashton Lewis is talking about how you should always question your instruments. So that's another place to look too ... maybe the paper slipped down in your hydrometer and its no longer giving you an accurate measurement? pH measurements possibly? Just some other things to check. In any case, let us know how it works out.
 

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I definitely hear you all about hating Facebook as I have similar feelings. That being said, in terms of interaction with other GF brewers around the world, the Facebook group is probably the best place to get instant feedback and a sense of community within a very niche brewing focus. I initially came to this forum as my sole resource when I first started brewing GF and it is definitely the WAY better than a Facebook group page in terms of finding threads and past discussions. I think of each as a vital resource.

I'm now hosting the Zoom monthly meetings and can certainly send out the meeting link to those that would like to join and do not currently use Facebook. Please shoot me a message if you're interested.

Our next meeting will be at the end of May and I have a guest speaker from the Washington State University Department of Crop and Soil Sciences to discuss many of the grains that we use in GF brewing. The meetings are always recorded and posted to the ZT YouTube page and I will try and remember to post them on HBT as well.

Cheers,
Cale Baldwin
 
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JMath

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Update on my previously mentioned all-biscuit rice beer with Ondea Pro. It hit FG spot on (1.008), but I don't know if I can attribute this to the Ondea Pro or just the fact that OG started quite low (1.036). And the 1.008 estimated FG was after I updated the calculations with my actual OG.

It still could be the case that a higher OG would leave me with a high FG, even with the use of Ondea Pro. Will have to try again.
 

glutarded-chris

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What yeast are you using? 1.008 is pretty typical for me with OG ranging from 1.040 to 1.060 using US-05, US-04, Saflager 34/70, Nottingham or a few others. Except for super high gravities where the alcohol content could stop the yeast, it should plow through the available sugars no matter what the specific OG level is. A higher FG should be related to the presence of unfermentable sugars and gravity contributors that the yeast cannot process, correct? I think the FG is primarily related to the grain and mashing process. I don't remember the science but I think some yeast strains stop at the more complex sugars or maybe have less alcohol tolerance causing them to finish higher than others.
 

JMath

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That was with US-05. Yes, you're right, something like Windsor will finish higher because there's a certain sugar it won't eat. I don't think my problems with high finishes have been yeast related, but mashing/enzyme related.
 

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Curious to see the Ondea enzyme package being used for GF beers. It is mostly used to brew industrial swill like Carling Lager, without having to use actual malted barley.
 
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rjmaillie

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It's a little strange over here in the gluten free brewing world. :)

While barley malt wants to be beer, we have to coax our rice, millet, and buckwheat malts along a little bit with the help of enzymes. Those that occur naturally in barley are limited in GF malts due to undermodification or denatured because of our higher gelatinization temps.
 

JMath

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On this whole topic of enzymes and gravities, I am going to bite the bullet and get a pH meter before my next batch.
 

skleice

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On this whole topic of enzymes and gravities, I am going to bite the bullet and get a pH meter before my next batch.
I got one a few batches ago. My mashes tend to read 1 point higher (5.3 vs 5.2) than the brunwater estimate. That could be due to my water source changing, but I've read that GF malts tend to be a bit more alkaline.
 

JMath

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Following up on this, I learned from Otherwise Brewing's post on grain crush that my low OG in my first Ondea/all-rice batch was likely due to the large 0.9mm crush I used.

I brewed a second batch with 12lb rice and 2lb of buckwheat, milling both together at 0.6mm. I ended up getting around 24 PPG, which is fantastic, considering we used to think rice maxed out at 22 PPG. I also realized it doesn't make sense to talk about efficiency in percentage, since no one knows the true theoretical PPG of any of these grains (Otherwise suspects it is around 34).

I now await my final gravity, to see whether I'll stick with the Termamyl + Ondre Pro + SEBAmyl L combo.
 

JMath

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My final gravity for this batch ended up at 1.009, so I am sold on the Termamyl + Ondea Pro + SEBAmyl L combo, until something better comes along.
 

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Just to update on my issues earlier in this thread, I believe my problems were due to poor circulation because I was using the GFHB screen on my Grainfather. It was gumming up and creating stuck mash issues. Since ditching the screen, my brew days and resulting gravities have been a breeze.

I'm also a HUGE fan of using Ceramix Flex & Ondea Pro and doing a rising step mash. EZPZ
 

JMath

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That's good to hear. I've been watching the Ceramix developments from afar. Are there any benefits from it other than reducing the need for the high temp gelatinization step?
 

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That's good to hear. I've been watching the Ceramix developments from afar. Are there any benefits from it other than reducing the need for the high temp gelatinization step?
It picks up the attenuation that Ondea does not achieve and removes the need for Diastase, AMG, SEBAmyl, etc.

To me, I'm thinking this leads to better body, head, etc (especially with mostly rice malt). However, I've also seen great results with SEBAmyl, so I can't really strongly claim that.
 
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rjmaillie

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I'm holding off on the Ceramix for now only because Ondea is such a game changer and I'm still trying to catch up to the changes it's making to my beer. Besides upping efficiency, body is the biggest improvement in the finished beer. Equal in my opinion to barley based brews. Super clean flavors. I haven't seen much change in head retention, but I was happy with what I had before.

@skleice whats your mash schedule with Ceramix? Would love to simplify my brew day a bit. Also, good to see it was just the screen causing the stuck mash issues (I was seriously looking at getting one). What mill settings did you settle on?
 

skleice

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I'm holding off on the Ceramix for now only because Ondea is such a game changer and I'm still trying to catch up to the changes it's making to my beer. Besides upping efficiency, body is the biggest improvement in the finished beer. Equal in my opinion to barley based brews. Super clean flavors. I haven't seen much change in head retention, but I was happy with what I had before.

@skleice whats your mash schedule with Ceramix? Would love to simplify my brew day a bit. Also, good to see it was just the screen causing the stuck mash issues (I was seriously looking at getting one). What mill settings did you settle on?
Mash schedule is taken straight from the Novozymes datasheet...
125 for 20 min
145 for 60 min
176 for 40 min
Ceramix Flex 1ml/lb
Ondea Pro 1.5ml/lb

For milling, I've been following this

Millet/Buckwheat .5mm 2x
Rice: .6mm (I start at .9mm on first pass and then .6mm on 2nd).

I've gone back to using a BIAB around the outside of the grainbasket on the grainfather, which really keeps everything out of the kettle. With this mash, enzymes & crush, I've been able to run the pump at full throttle. I add everything at minute 1 and then relax until sparge. Super easy!
 
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rjmaillie

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Mash schedule is taken straight from the Novozymes datasheet...
125 for 20 min
145 for 60 min
176 for 40 min
Ceramix Flex 1ml/lb
Ondea Pro 1.5ml/lb
How are the final gravities on the beers brewed with Ceramix, compared to predicted/expected?
 

skleice

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How are the final gravities on the beers brewed with Ceramix, compared to predicted/expected?
I've done five batches with this mash schedule and enzyme load. All final gravities have hit the expected range as calculated by Brewer's Friend (ala barely brews).
 
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