Omega OYL-605 Lacto Blend Experiences

[TMannion87]

Turbidity in your starter and your wort is a sign that the lacto is doing its thing, but for the most part you shouldn't/won't see much activity.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

I brewed the mango cherry Cuban gose and did the starter again.. I didn't see any activity with either, pitched the whole thing and in 14 hrs down to 3.3 again. So I'm with you as I was a skeptic with both brews and with each I pitched the whole starter and all was well. Just believe

What did your starter look like? I pitched my OYL-605 into 1L of 1.040 wort (105g DME) this morning, about 14 hours ago, and I'm not seeing any signs of lacto presence.

I do have a thin layer of some cloudy white substance settling to the bottom. I gave it a gentle swirl for a couple of seconds to re-suspend a bit of it (shouldn't lacto activity be on the surface?), but I'm worried the pack of lacto could be bad. Is this possible?

I'm brewing tomorrow so I'm trying to figure out if I need to run to the LHBS and get something else in the morning.

 

[MagicMatt]

What should the starter smell like? Just took a whiff and it is almost unpleasant. I wouldn't say it's a vomit like smell, but really funky. Like old shoes or garbage or something.

I'm now wondering if I should toss it and use something else (Good Belly, etc)? I'd hate to mess up the 5 gallons of beer - this is for a festival in 5 weeks!

I've tried searching about what a lacto starter should smell like, but couldn't find anything about this specific blend except one person who said it smelled pretty rotten for a couple of days but then smelled really lemony. This definitely isn't lemony, but it's only been 34 hours.

I just got done brewing about an hour ago and the wort is in a carboy at 94°F right now in the garage. It's already been pre-soured with lactic acid to 4.3 pH. I feel like I need to pitch something in it tonight - either the starter or something else.

What do y'all think?

 

[Morrey]

What should the starter smell like? Just took a whiff and it is almost unpleasant. I wouldn't say it's a vomit like smell, but really funky. Like old shoes or garbage or something.

I'm now wondering if I should toss it and use something else (Good Belly, etc)? I'd hate to mess up the 5 gallons of beer - this is for a festival in 5 weeks!

I've tried searching about what a lacto starter should smell like, but couldn't find anything about this specific blend except one person who said it smelled pretty rotten for a couple of days but then smelled really lemony. This definitely isn't lemony, but it's only been 34 hours.

I just got done brewing about an hour ago and the wort is in a carboy at 94°F right now in the garage. It's already been pre-soured with lactic acid to 4.3 pH. I feel like I need to pitch something in it tonight - either the starter or something else.

What do y'all think?

Matt, take a look at how the lacto separates into three layers with the most dense, white layer at the bottom. The smell varies but I noted my last batch smelled a bit like tennis shoes. For the lack of a better term it smells funky or a bit stale and sour.

 

[MagicMatt]

OK I pitched it! On taking a second (bigger and deeper) sniff, there is some fruity sourness to it on the back end. We'll see how she goes!

Thanks!

 

[Morrey]

Omega 605 has been extremely consistent for me, however I plan to try Swanson L Plantarum caps as an alternative due to the comparative low cost. Of all the commercial lacto blends on the market geared toward kettle souring, 605 is a top pick.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I always think they smell like an Arnold Palmer aka half lemonade/half tea. The acidity should be easily noticeable but clean and pleasant. If you got what you got(funky) then too much air is getting into the process. Did you use a stir bar? Was the starter sealed or just foil on top? How much headspace are you leaving in your fermenter?

 

[MagicMatt]

Yeah I could see the Arnold Palmer maybe.....with some notes of funk. I only have one Erlenmeyer flask and was using that for the sacch yeast for this beer, so I used a growler that never gets used (it's on a shelf for display). So there was a decent amount of headspace in there, but I didn't shake (no stir bar/plate) and used sanitized foil tightly capped around the mouth. It was sitting on top of my fridge at about 77°F and hadn't opened it until today.

As for headspace in the fermenter, there's not much. The wort is maybe 2" from the bottom of the neck. I also purged the headspace with CO2 for about 20 seconds before I capped it with the airlock.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I bet the foil is the culprit or the main one. Next time use an airlock on the starter and try to cut down on headspace.
If you have enough lacto built up that amount of headspace should be ok but it's right on the border. The closer to your airlock the better.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

Honestly never smelled it in fact I didn't want to assuming it would be awful. My garage the following morning did smell like a locker room.... honestly I think you will be fine but you presoured... you might want to check that ph in like 8 hrs... I was at 5.4 prior to pitching and like I said got to 3.3 in around 12 to 14 hrs.

What should the starter smell like? Just took a whiff and it is almost unpleasant. I wouldn't say it's a vomit like smell, but really funky. Like old shoes or garbage or something.

I'm now wondering if I should toss it and use something else (Good Belly, etc)? I'd hate to mess up the 5 gallons of beer - this is for a festival in 5 weeks!

I've tried searching about what a lacto starter should smell like, but couldn't find anything about this specific blend except one person who said it smelled pretty rotten for a couple of days but then smelled really lemony. This definitely isn't lemony, but it's only been 34 hours.

I just got done brewing about an hour ago and the wort is in a carboy at 94°F right now in the garage. It's already been pre-soured with lactic acid to 4.3 pH. I feel like I need to pitch something in it tonight - either the starter or something else.

What do y'all think?

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

BTW Matt I certainly don't want to sound like an expert but I sort of felt this lacto blend was pretty much the easiest blend based on what I read almost something you couldn't mess up. I had both starters in a 2 liter erlmeyer and no stirring. The first was foil and the second a sponge like stopper no rhyme or reason for my selections.


As an aside... tasted my mango cherry Cuban gose today. Trnsferred the beer after primary fermentation h over 12 lbs of mango and 6 lbs of cherries... both pretty much fermented out... wonder if I should have considered killing the yeast and back sweetening like a cider.. I knew fermentation would kick off but damn if I thought the fruit would be undetectable. Gonna keep it cold crashed for another day transfer to a keg and add the lime/habanero infused vodka to inject some heat and other flavors/aroma.

Let us know how it goes matt. I think you will be fine. Hopefully your ph doesn't drop too low. Anybody think he should keep a close eye on it?

What should the starter smell like? Just took a whiff and it is almost unpleasant. I wouldn't say it's a vomit like smell, but really funky. Like old shoes or garbage or something.

I'm now wondering if I should toss it and use something else (Good Belly, etc)? I'd hate to mess up the 5 gallons of beer - this is for a festival in 5 weeks!

I've tried searching about what a lacto starter should smell like, but couldn't find anything about this specific blend except one person who said it smelled pretty rotten for a couple of days but then smelled really lemony. This definitely isn't lemony, but it's only been 34 hours.

I just got done brewing about an hour ago and the wort is in a carboy at 94°F right now in the garage. It's already been pre-soured with lactic acid to 4.3 pH. I feel like I need to pitch something in it tonight - either the starter or something else.

What do y'all think?

 

[MagicMatt]

Thanks for the heads up. I was actually hoping it would take 24 hours (or less) to sour to the 3.2-3.3 range so that I could finish today (boil, pitch the yeast, etc). I've also read about how good this blend is and how it's pretty much the best commercial lacto blend out there right now (in terms of ease of use and results).

Since I pitched so late last night (was hoping to pitch around 5pm but didn't until about 9pm) I was just going to let it ride overnight again tonight. But I'll heed your advice and check the pH around 4pm today (19 hours) in case it's ready so I have time to boil, chill, and clean before it gets dark.

 

[MagicMatt]

Actually screw it, I'll go pull a sample right now.

Edit:

Wow, sure enough it's already low enough! Thanks for making me go check! On to the boil now.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I wouldn't open it. Every time you open it you let air in potentially funking up the batch. When I was tasting daily to determine when to pasteurize I noticed I would get some funk notes creeping in. Not enough to ruin the beer but not something you want either even if its subtle. Now I just leave it be 72 hours and roll with it from there. Ive noticed for myself 24 hours gets the acidity similar to an 1809. 48 hours is closer to lemonade. And 72 hours is sour, not puckering tongue frying sour but possibly still more than some want.

 

[MagicMatt]

I purge with CO2 when I open, so that shouldn't be an issue. I know air still gets in, but I'm not terribly worried about it on such a small level.

I tasted the sample, and it reminds me of powdered lemonade (Country Time, etc). I'm assuming this is because of the sweetness that's still around and that once the yeast takes care of the sugar the sourness will stand out more and seem noticeably more sour. I'm not going for mouth-puckering here for my first attempt, but I do want it to be obviously sour.

Should I wait, or roll with it? Everything I've read says once you're below 3.3 pH to go ahead and boil to stop the souring. I did increase my sacch cell count by about 100 (from 167 billion to 267 billion) since I've read that pH below 3.3 can sometimes inhibit the yeast during fermentation.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

key West it won't push him under 3 if he waits longer will it? I didn't realize letting it go might offer different profiles. I read of all the risks of not putting lacto in the right environment plus opportunistic infections and just figured I would take advantage of the quick souring and get my boil on.

Good call on planning to pitch more.... both of mine actually under attenuated. I was pitching dry but probably should have either hydrated or pitched 1.5 packets.... I got lazy even though I saw some lag in fermentation with the first batch and didn't hit my f.g.

 

[MagicMatt]

Eh I boiled it anyway. I saw here that 3.3 was "very sour".....don't know how trustworthy the info is but seems like it mimics other things I've read:

http://sourbeerblog.com/fast-souring-lactobacillus/

A pH around 3.6 generally equates with a tartness appropriate for styles like Berliner Weisse or Gose. A pH around 3.3 will be strongly sour, on par with many young lambic style beers. Keep in mind that at a pH below 3.4 to 3.5, some strains of Saccharomyces will have difficulty producing a healthy fermentation.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

Wife got goosebumps at 3.3....

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

key West it won't push him under 3 if he waits longer will it? I didn't realize letting it go might offer different profiles. I read of all the risks of not putting lacto in the right environment plus opportunistic infections and just figured I would take advantage of the quick souring and get my boil on.

Good call on planning to pitch more.... both of mine actually under attenuated. I was pitching dry but probably should have either hydrated or pitched 1.5 packets.... I got lazy even though I saw some lag in fermentation with the first batch and didn't hit my f.g.

Im not sure where it bottoms out but I have read that it eventually gets to a point thats not suitable for the lacto anymore. As for pitching Ive been splitting cakes of Nottingham from other batches and pitching about 1/3 a cake. If I do have to use a fresh pitch I try to use 2 packs though Ive had success with 1 it just took longer. The yeast are getting thrown into some harsh conditions so pitching big helps make sure your getting enough troops in there to get the job done.

 

[bannerj]

I pitched my starter just under 120 degrees. I read above to chill to 90. Not much happened in the first 24. I thought below 120 was okay. Is it screwed?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I pitched my starter just under 120 degrees. I read above to chill to 90. Not much happened in the first 24. I thought below 120 was okay. Is it screwed?

If the pH hasn't dropped, then yes. It should be well on its way to being sour at 24 hours, especially pitched warm.
Time to pitch some more Lacto.

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

agree with rph guy. I've always dropped at least 1.0 to 2.0 in ph in 24 hrs. just two weeks ago preboil ph was 5.4 pitched lacto after 15 min boil, collected all wort purged fermenter of o2 the best I could and pitched starter. I believe my pitch has always been on the lower end if not under 90. 16 hrs later ph was 3.4. boiled to lock it down and off to the fermenter with sacc.

 

[bannerj]

My trouble is that I don't have a meter. Trying to use strips. They have turned white, but I don't taste any sour tartness?

 

[RPh_Guy]

My trouble is that I don't have a meter. Trying to use strips. They have turned white, but I don't taste any sour tartness?

You can't judge the sourness level by taste because the wort is too sweet.
Strips are pretty unreliable.
Does it smell like bacteria?

 

[madscientistbrewNq]

I would add that the starter never showed any real activity for me any of the times I've done kettle sours. I can't say if there was activity in the kettle due to it being all closed up but I will say that it will have some level of sour odor not severe but noticable. I think without even a cheap ph meter you are at somewhat of a disadvantage. I've kettle soured in early spring and since ambient temps are less warm I've noticed I don't get as large of a drop in ph and that's even bringing the kettle inside. I did a sour blonde and only went from 5.4 to 3.6 in almost 24 hrs but I was happy with that level of acidity where the Berliners and goses I want 3.3 to 3.4. I would say that after you have done a few you may be able to get away without one but... at least the first couple rodeos it probably best you lean on some technology

 

[TAK]

You can't judge the sourness level by taste because the wort is too sweet.
Strips are pretty unreliable.
Does it smell like bacteria?

At least in my experience, you should still be able to taste the sourness while in the presence of the sweet wort. The perceived sourness will certainly be higher in a dry, fermented beer, but the starter should be akin to lemonade, tart, but sweet.

 

[Abrayton]

Old thread I know. Wondering if anyone has pitched this a bit on the hot side and what results were? I pitched the 605 into wort at about 110°. Twelve hours later, no noticeable souring. I know the optimal temp rang is a high of 95°, which the wort is well below now.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Old thread I know. Wondering if anyone has pitched this a bit on the hot side and what results were? I pitched the 605 into wort at about 110°. Twelve hours later, no noticeable souring. I know the optimal temp rang is a high of 95°, which the wort is well below now.

In my old setup, I did mistakenly have this get up to 105F and it killed it off completely. I got no souring from that point on. I would say that 110F, from my experience, you’re done and not going to get anything from it unfortunately.

 

[Rob2010SS]

Old thread I know. Wondering if anyone has pitched this a bit on the hot side and what results were? I pitched the 605 into wort at about 110°. Twelve hours later, no noticeable souring. I know the optimal temp rang is a high of 95°, which the wort is well below now.

Although, I’m not a biologist or a genius when it comes to yeast and bugs so I could very well be wrong.

 

[Abrayton]

Thanks for the reply. It actually ended up working just fine. Had a nice sour wort right where I wanted it at about 48 hours and finished the brew with no issues. RDWHAHB is a philosophy I need to practice more!

 

[Rob2010SS]

Thanks for the reply. It actually ended up working just fine. Had a nice sour wort right where I wanted it at about 48 hours and finished the brew with no issues. RDWHAHB is a philosophy I need to practice more!

Nice! Glad to hear it! I agree, that's a philosophy I need to practice more as well.

 

[Flora]

Hi everyone! I am traying to get advice on how to propagate omega yeast lacto 605. I have a homebrewer bag (150ml of lacto) how can I make it grow to be able to pitch 150 liters of wort.
thank you!

 

[Flora]

We haven't done a whole lot of experimentation with pitching rates at this point. You're not overpitching with a 1.75L starter though so no worries.

Hi Ishaner,
I am trying to get advice on how to propagate omega yeast lacto 605. I have a 2 homebrewer bag (150ml of lacto each) how can I make it grow to be able to pitch 150 liters of wort.
thank you!

 

[Rob2010SS]

Hi Ishaner,
I am trying to get advice on how to propagate omega yeast lacto 605. I have a 2 homebrewer bag (150ml of lacto each) how can I make it grow to be able to pitch 150 liters of wort.
thank you!

Check out this link for some information regarding lacto and starters.

In a brief glance through this, I found this statement...

If the amount of growth cannot be accurately determined by cell counting under a microscope, then pitching 0.5-1 liter of fresh Lactobacillus starter culture per 5 gallons of wort ensures that an adequate number of cells will be pitched.

So do a typical starter with DME and water. Based on their info, a 4L starter would be the low end for your batch size. Also sounds like aeration is not necessary for Lactobacillus.

 

[GeorgeGreen]

I wouldn't open it. Every time you open it you let air in potentially funking up the batch. When I was tasting daily to determine when to pasteurize I noticed I would get some funk notes creeping in. Not enough to ruin the beer but not something you want either even if its subtle. Now I just leave it be 72 hours and roll with it from there. Ive noticed for myself 24 hours gets the acidity similar to an 1809. 48 hours is closer to lemonade. And 72 hours is sour, not puckering tongue frying sour but possibly still more than some want.

Thank you so much for breaking this down time wise.