Old Historical Recipe

[Slim M]

What do you make of this old recipe. I’ve scaled it down for my process & size but can’t figure out the hop schedule.

Craft Brewery Revives Beer Recipe Found in Smithsonian Archives

Maryland’s Denizens Brewing Co. has recreated "Bock to the Future," a replica of an 80-year-old bock beer recipe that was found in the Smithsonian’s archives.

www.craftbeer.com

 

[Sammy86]

What do you make of this old recipe. I’ve scaled it down for my process & size but can’t figure out the hop schedule.

Craft Brewery Revives Beer Recipe Found in Smithsonian Archives

Maryland’s Denizens Brewing Co. has recreated "Bock to the Future," a replica of an 80-year-old bock beer recipe that was found in the Smithsonian’s archives.

www.craftbeer.com

View attachment 811131

The recipe in cursive listed “Oreg.” under “hops” so Ramirez used Nugget as a bittering hop and the Willamette variety for aroma and flavor.

In what I believe is the German tradition of 60 min 30 min and 10 for the hop additions.

 

[Slim M]

In what I believe is the German tradition of 60 min 30 min and 10 for the hop additions.

Thinking about going with Cluster. From what I read Cluster was probably the most grown/used hop from the left coast during the early 1900s. I could be wrong though.

I also wonder about if the sugar was like our white cane or more of a brown sugar. Haven’t decided on which direction I will go on that.

 

[mac_1103]

Well, only the person whose cursive that is would know for sure, but what makes you think "sugar" doesn't mean plain old granulated white cane sugar? 1939 wasn't that long ago and people were refining sugar way before then.

 

[Slim M]

Well, only the person whose cursive that is would know for sure, but what makes you think "sugar" doesn't mean plain old granulated white cane sugar? 1939 wasn't that long ago and people were refining sugar way before then.

I think because I seem to remember reading an article in a magazine on another historical type American style bock from around the same era and they used brown sugar.

 

[patto1ro]

Well, only the person whose cursive that is would know for sure, but what makes you think "sugar" doesn't mean plain old granulated white cane sugar? 1939 wasn't that long ago and people were refining sugar way before then.

Brewers almost never used pure sucrose.

 

[Slim M]

Brewers almost never used pure sucrose.

I’ve seen several old historical type recipes posted in various articles and the only one I have ever seen clearly call out Cane Sugar was a Coopers recipe but I’m not exactly sure of the level of refinement.

I’m leaning towards brown sugar I think because I think it was not uncommon to see brown sugar in porter recipes of the time. This also being a darker beer this might have some logic. Hey but I’m open to open to opinions to consider.

 

[Beermeister32]

I did a 90 year old recipe last year, It used Cluster, I think that is the primary type available back in the day.

 

[faithie999]

not taking sides on the "sucrose or not" discussion, ...

Historically, brown sugar was less-refined sugar (the molasses wasn't removed) but it still was cane sugar (sucrose). today's "grocery store" brown sugar is white sugar with molasses added.

 

[Slim M]

not taking sides on the "sucrose or not" discussion, ...

Historically, brown sugar was less-refined sugar (the molasses wasn't removed) but it still was cane sugar (sucrose). today's "grocery store" brown sugar is white sugar with molasses added.

What would you go with to try and get close with what we have available today?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Turbinado, demerara, Raw

 

[mac_1103]

Those are all 96-99% sucrose. Might as well just use table sugar and add a tablespoon of molasses.

 

[Slim M]

Those are all 96-99% sucrose. Might as well just use table sugar and add a tablespoon of molasses.

Joking or serious? Sorry can’t see facial expression

 

[mac_1103]

Serious. The amount of residual molasses in any of those is very low. "Sugar in the Raw" is not raw sugar in any meaningful sense.

I sympathize with and appreciate your quest for historical accuracy. My point is simply that when it gets right down to it, you're unavoidably just guessing.

 

[Slim M]

Serious. The amount of residual molasses in any of those is very low. "Sugar in the Raw" is not raw sugar in any meaningful sense.

I sympathize with and appreciate your quest for historical accuracy. My point is simply that when it gets right down to it, you're unavoidably just guessing.

Well put thanks.

 

[Slim M]

I might try piloncillo.

 

[faithie999]

my guess is that by the time of this recipe (1939?) sugar refining was the same as today, producing white sugar and making brown sugar by adding back a fixed percentage of molasses. so, a brewery would have access to plain-ol white sugar, which is what I would use if it were me.

 

[BrewZer]

Any idea (a) what yeast they used, and (b) what yeast you're planning on using? That's a big beer!

 

[Slim M]

Any idea (a) what yeast they used, and (b) what yeast you're planning on using? That's a big beer!

Weihenstephan strain

 

[CharlaineC]

I have a few questions.
1. how many gallons is this for?
2. is 149 at 60min a decent mash for this of should it be 149 at 90?
3. for the boil would 60 30 10 be the best hops table?
4. The hops available during that time I'm thinking fuggle and saaz. i's added a lis of hops front the times.
5. I'm guessing for the sugar they were talking raw cane sugars as that was common in many brewery's so something like the Mexican sugars would be the closest match.

 

[Slim M]

I have a few questions.
1. how many gallons is this for?
2. is 149 at 60min a decent mash for this of should it be 149 at 90?
3. for the boil would 60 30 10 be the best hops table?
4. The hops available during that time I'm thinking fuggle and saaz. i's added a lis of hops front the times.
5. I'm guessing for the sugar they were talking raw cane sugars as that was common in many brewery's so something like the Mexican sugars would be the closest match.

View attachment 811199 View attachment 811200

I’m going for a 10 gallons batch planning on hitting sg around 45-50. I plan on a 148f for 75 minutes & 60 minute boil.

My chosen target sg may seem low to some but I think given the low mash temp, sugar/adjuncts, & high attenuating yeast it will finish pretty low. As far as hops I’m going with cluster. The author of the old recipe calls out Oregon hops and I believe cluster was pretty common in the region at the time.

 

[Slim M]

I’m not sure what the notes are at the bottom of the page. Almost looks like it says first wort 19.9, last 2.4, & turnout 12.9. Not sure as to what this means maybe hop schedule?

 

[CharlaineC]

I was wondering if that was a 20 gal batch

 

[patto1ro]

I’m not sure what the notes are at the bottom of the page. Almost looks like it says first wort 19.9, last 2.4, & turnout 12.9. Not sure as to what this means maybe hop schedule?

Those are the gravities as the wort was run off.

 

[Slim M]

Those are the gravities as the wort was run off.

Oh thanks. So I’m assuming turnout would be his starting gravity at post boil but not sure may preboil. Looks like he is using Plato so 12.9 would be around 1.052 gravity. Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[bwible]

I’m going for a 10 gallons batch planning on hitting sg around 45-50. I plan on a 148f for 75 minutes & 60 minute boil.

My chosen target sg may seem low to some but I think given the low mash temp, sugar/adjuncts, & high attenuating yeast it will finish pretty low. As far as hops I’m going with cluster. The author of the old recipe calls out Oregon hops and I believe cluster was pretty common in the region at the time.

I can’t find traditional bock in the new guidelines but its 5B under the 2008 guidelines. I think bock was stronger and darker than the regular lager beers at the time and for a traditional German bock I’d think you want a starting gravity in the 1.060s. American versions may have been different.

5B. Traditional Bock – Beer Judge Certification Program

www.bjcp.org

The question to me is the source of the recipe. There were German bocks but as bocks became popular in America many American breweries made “bocks” with regular grains and adding color, not like the German versions which were probably made with munich malt. We see “carmel malt” and sugar in this recipe, both of which I believe would not have been found in a traditional German bock recipe. So this seems like an Americanized version to me.

Bock seemed to have had a bad reputation when I was growing up. As a kid, I heard people say things more than once like “thats the stuff they scrape out of the bottom of the barrel.” Or maybe people I knew were just not educated beer drinkers.

 

[jambop]

God you had me going there I thought you had found an old recipe!

 

[Slim M]

God you had me going there I thought you had found an old recipe!

Not sure exactly what that means! But no, I found nothing but apparently Mr. Voight who was a brewmaster from back in the day donated some stuff to the Smithsonian. Check out the article attached when you get some time it’s a short read & explains the origin of the old recipe.

 

[Slim M]

I can’t find traditional bock in the new guidelines but its 5B under the 2008 guidelines. I think bock was stronger and darker than the regular lager beers at the time and for a traditional German bock I’d think you want a starting gravity in the 1.060s. American versions may have been different.

5B. Traditional Bock – Beer Judge Certification Program

www.bjcp.org

The question to me is the source of the recipe. There were German bocks but as bocks became popular in America many American breweries made “bocks” with regular grains and adding color, not like the German versions which were probably made with munich malt. We see “carmel malt” and sugar in this recipe, both of which I believe would not have been found in a traditional German bock recipe. So this seems like an Americanized version to me.

Bock seemed to have had a bad reputation when I was growing up. As a kid, I heard people say things more than once like “thats the stuff they scrape out of the bottom of the barrel.” Or maybe people I knew were just not educated beer drinkers.

I heard the same thing as a kid but looking back at the source info was coming from guys who drank Natural Light. I doubt any reputable brewer in modern times ever scrapped the barrel. Reminds me of another false myth that Dark Beer is stronger like higher abv makes higher srm.

As far as gravity goes I’m trying for around 1.050 plus or minus. I think the notes at the bottom indicate 12.9 Plato so 1.052sg. German brewers tried to brew similar beers as the old world but with new world ingredients including 6-row and different adjuncts. So old world styles morphed into new world recipes made with things available. Shiner Bock is probably similar in style to this recipe referenced. No disrespect but BJCP guidelines holds little value to me but this would be more of a 4a dark American lager if it had to fit somewhere.

 

[bwible]

I heard the same thing as a kid but looking back at the source info was coming from guys who drank Natural Light. I doubt any reputable brewer in modern times ever scrapped the barrel. Reminds me of another false myth that Dark Beer is stronger like higher abv makes higher srm.

As far as gravity goes I’m trying for around 1.050 plus or minus. I think the notes at the bottom indicate 12.9 Plato so 1.052sg. German brewers tried to brew similar beers as the old world but with new world ingredients including 6-row and different adjuncts. So old world styles morphed into new world recipes made with things available. Shiner Bock is probably similar in style to this recipe referenced. No disrespect but BJCP guidelines holds little value to me but this would be more of a 4a dark American lager if it had to fit somewhere.

Oh I know there was no truth to it. I’m just saying bock had sort of a bad reputation. Some of that I’m sure is that it was misundersood as you said by light beer drinkers.

I use BJCP guides for reference and framework. I don’t enter competitions so i’m not brewing for that. I know Gordon Strong and others in the BJCP have done much research and put significant effort into defining “styles” and giving history and context. Not everything fits into a style though. Sometimes we are trying to fit things into styles where styles don’t apply. But its a place to start. The recipe does say bock at the top.

 

[CharlaineC]

Okay, I'm having issues reading two of the fermentables listed. But correct me please if I'm wrong here as when I plug the info into brewfather this is for a 10000 gallon batch around. I'm thing about 2 pounds of yeast for the batch or 11 packs of German bock

• 13,500Lbs Corn Flaked/Malt
• 750LBS Caramel Malt
• 400Lbs Black Malt
• 1800Lbs Sugar
• 4400Lbs Rice
• 275Lbs Fresh hops not too sure what they subbed with but I'm thinking Fuggles and Saaz because of the times

 

[bwible]

First line is hard to read but it looks to me like it says malt and then has what could be a company or a mfg name after that. (Something) & (something) Carr? & “Inf”? Maybe abbreviations or short for something? Guessing. The word malt in the first line pretty closely matches the word malt in the second line where it says carmel malt.

Then its:
-carmel malt
- black malt
- hops
- sugar
- rice

Can’t imagine any beer made with mostly corn, carmel malt, a little black malt. Sugar, and rice.

Oreg means Oregon - hops from Oregon talked about by others above.

I went to Catholic grade school in the 60s and this writing looks exactly like what we are all taught - classic catholic school pennmanship. Especially all the capital letters.

Interesting they wrote “hofs” (clearly an “f”) and “rise” instead of hops and rice. Maybe the person who wrote this was German? Again a guess. I’m not a handwriting expert and I don’t play one on television.

 

[CharlaineC]

okay the first is supposed to be pale malt re-reading the article it says it

 

[bwible]

Now that I look at the 3 Oreg lines again, it looks like they say 80 on the first line, 105 on the second line (looks like something was erased there and then written over) and 90 on the third line - which coincidentally add up to the 275 listed for hops. No times indicated but maybe these are somehow 3 hop additions according to whatever schedule they were using?

 

[CharlaineC]

From my understanding classic german styles have a 60,30,10 hop schedule

 

[bwible]

From my understanding classic german styles have a 60,30,10 hop schedule

Well there you go!

 

[bwible]

Sometimes I can’t even read my own handwriting so its always a challenge to read somebody else’s, eh?

 

[CharlaineC]

After some work in brew-father Here is what I've come up with. but might change out the Saaz for golding. not sure how to adjust for pellets so I calculated for whole hopps.

Historical Bock​

6.0% / 14.3 °P
Recipe by
The Witches Cauldron
All Grain

Default​

72% efficiency
Batch Volume: 5 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
Mash Water: 4.37 gal
Sparge Water: 2.76 gal
Total Water: 7.13 gal
Boil Volume: 6.28 gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.044

Vitals​

Original Gravity: 1.058
Final Gravity: 1.012
IBU (Tinseth): 33
BU/GU: 0.57
Color: 17.5 SRM

Mash​

Temperature — 150 °F — 60 min

Malts (9 lb 9.4 oz)​

6 lb 12.6 oz (64.7%) — Barrett Burston Pale Malt — Grain — 2 °L
2 lb 3.6 oz (21.2%) — Briess Rice, Flaked — Grain — 1.3 °L
6 oz (3.6%) — BESTMALZ BEST Caramel Aromatic — Grain — 19.3 °L
3.2 oz (1.9%) — Bairds Black Malt — Grain — 443.5 °L

Other (14.5 oz)​

14.5 oz (8.6%) — Brown Sugar, Dark — Sugar — 37.5 °L

Hops (2.19 oz)​

1.49 oz (25 IBU) — Fuggle (Whole) 4.75% — Boil — 60 min
0.5 oz (7 IBU) — Fuggle 4.75% — Boil — 30 min
0.2 oz (1 IBU) — Saaz (Whole) 4.5% — Boil — 10 min

Yeast​

0 pkg — DrYeast Y26 German Bock 72%

Fermentation​

Primary — 68 °F — 14 days
Secondary — 68 °F — 30 days
Carbonation: 2.4 CO2-vol

 

[bwible]

If you want to stay true to the recipe they list hops 80/275 or 29% of the hops for 60 min addition, 105/275 or 38% for the 30 min addition and 90/275 or 33% for the 10 min. (Assuming the 60,30,10 schedule is what they were using)

This is the thing I find the most interesting about this old recipe - how most of the hops are going in for 30 min and under. And how so many recipes today are coming back to this, like they just came up with this themselves.

Though they dont give vitals like ibu and srm. If we went with their hopping schedule and used the same amount of hops then its likey the ibu would be lower. Modern bocks list bu:gu as around .27-.45 so in this case 15-26 ibu for a 1.058 beer. This recipe currently has 33/58 or a .56 ratio. Not too far out of line and not in pale ale or ipa territory or anything - plus we often hear how hopping was higher in the past.

I’d imagine you would get less bitter but more hop flavor with 38% of the hops at 30 min and 33% at 10 min. This really has me intrigued and I want to try this with a lager now!

 

[Slim M]

Oh I know there was no truth to it. I’m just saying bock had sort of a bad reputation. Some of that I’m sure is that it was misundersood as you said by light beer drinkers.

I use BJCP guides for reference and framework. I don’t enter competitions so i’m not brewing for that. I know Gordon Strong and others in the BJCP have done much research and put significant effort into defining “styles” and giving history and context. Not everything fits into a style though. Sometimes we are trying to fit things into styles where styles don’t apply. But its a place to start. The recipe does say bock at the top.

Yeah I figured you knew all that stuff but figured I would throw it out there for somebody reading that that might not. I do think it’s funny how those old myths get told and repeated and how we both heard the same things as kids about dark beer