Old Ale recipe --thoughts?--

[Golddiggie]

Formulating an Old Ale recipe (trying to finalize something to make on Sunday 12/19)... As it stands right now:

Target batch size: 5 gallons (into primary)
Type: Extract (interested in trying as a partial mash too, so feedback/help there would be great)
Estimated OG: 1.087
Estimated FG: 1.022
Estimated IBU: 35.3
Estimated Color: 21.0
Estimated ABV: 8.47%

6.5 #s Extra Light DME
4 #s Amber LME (1 can)
4 oz Crystal Malt 60L
4 oz Crystal Malt 80L
6 oz Crystal Malt 120L
4 oz Chocolate Malt
1 oz Northern Brewer hops (pellets) 60 minute boil
1 oz Fuggles hops (pellets) 45 minute boil
1 oz Tettnag (US) hops (pellets) 0 minute boil (at flame out)
Yeast cake from batch in primary (Wyeast #1084 Irish Ale) or Wyeast #1728 Scottish Ale (if not using the cake)

Planning to steep specialty grains for about 20 minutes (maybe a little longer) at 150-160F.

Expecting 1 week in primary, 2 weeks in secondary (will see how things go) and then bottle. Will have to see how things go in fermentation, so those time frames are open to change. Planning to bottle with either DME or honey to 2.2-2.4 CO2 volume. Fermentation temperature will probably be in the low to mid 60's (that room ranges from about 62-68F right now) within the listed temperature range for the yeast. Another yeast candidate would be Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale, which does have a wider temperature range to it. Either way, room where it's fermenting will be under 70F.

Right now I only have one 16 quart pot, plus a couple of 8 quart pots to use. If I need to get another pot in the 16+ quart range in order to PM, I'll need to know ASAP. I'm planning on stopping at the LHBS tomorrow for what I'll need for this, where I can get a 16-20 quart pot (I hope) at a reasonable rate (thin wall, so it's cheaper than I've seen listed at other places)... I've already decided that Sunday will be brewing day, so if this is an all day affair, I'm good with that.

Feedback??

Still interested in a PM version for this...

 

[maskednegator]

I don't think the low lovibond crystal is appropriate. You might want to go for dark crystal for more dark fruit character.

 

[dcp27]

Expecting 1 week in primary, 2 weeks in secondary (will see how things go) and then bottle.

definitely don't do that. 1 week is way too short in the primary for a brew of this size and a secondary is useless as well. just leave it in the primary for at least 3-4 weeks.

 

[Golddiggie]

I'm going from the info I have available to me (this will be my fourth brewing)...

From the How to Brew site (using it for some better information/details on ingredients)...
Caramel 10 (10 L) This malt adds a light honey-like sweetness and some body to the finished beer.

Caramel 60 (60 L) This is the most commonly used caramel malt, also known as medium crystal. It adds a full caramel taste and body to the beer.

Chocolate Malt 400L Used in small amounts for brown ale and extensively in porters and stouts, this malt has a bittersweet chocolate flavor, pleasant roast character and contributes a deep ruby black color.

Roast Barley 550L This is not actually a malt, but highly roasted plain barley. It has a dry, distinct coffee taste and is the signature flavor of Stouts. It has less of a charcoal "bite" to it than does Black Patent.

I'm looking to keep the color within the range (10-22SRM) of the style. I did figure that the flavor hops (US Tettnang) would help to contribute to the flavor profile I desire...

I can still tweak the recipe to get a solid brew, that's still within the style parameters (which are pretty wide)... I'm looking for something that won't need to age for an extended period before it's ready to be consumed... I'd like to have it bottle conditioned within 2-3 months, if possible. If not, then I'll probably need to pick something else to brew this time.

 

[Golddiggie]

definitely don't do that. 1 week is way too short in the primary for a brew of this size and a secondary is useless as well. just leave it in the primary for at least 3-4 weeks.

I've had excellent results, so far, by going primary, then secondary... I only have one 6 gallon carboy (have a 7-1/2 gallon bucket, but I'm reluctant to use that again since it's a PiTA)... I have two 5 gallon carboys that I can use for secondary, or even tertiary as needed (or rack into something else while I clean the carboy and rack back in)...

I typically go by airlock activity for my decision of when to go to secondary... Once the airlock has slowed to less than one movement per 2-3 minutes, I plan to rack. As I said, it's done me well so far. It does mean that times are not set in stone. I've had one ale that was ready after just 5 days. I've also had a porter that went almost 10 days in primary before being racked to secondary. Basically, I'm trying to plan a brewing for when the primary gets freed up, so that I can make sure that I don't run out (have not reached the point of constant beer yet)...

Planning to rack, and doing it is not the same thing. Also, I've been brewing from instruction sheets until now... On my first brew, it was in primary LONGER than the range given. Due to it not being 'ready' in my opinion. The second brew went through primary faster, but then rested in secondary. Since I'm still NEW to this, cut me some freakin slack. I'm not entering in competitions. With what I've made so far, I'm getting good results. I was thinking of racking what's in primary this weekend, but another check shows it's still giving activity. Although there's no more flocculation evident on it (one of the reasons I like to use a carboy over a bucket). More I think about it the more I think I'll get another carboy for primary (for this weekend's brewing) or use one of my 5 gallon carboys (with a blow-off tube either way)...

I also have four batches of mead in process right now. One 3 gallon melomel that's almost completely done with all fermenting (getting racked off the last fruit addition in the next two days and then will be left to age), 3 and 5 gallon 'traditional' mead batches that are still in primary (CG numbers indicate neither is done yet), and a 1 gallon PoR batch that's nearing completion of primary... Picking up making mead forces you to be better with the hydrometer. Another reason I favor carboys for fermenting is so that you can actually take samples for testing without wrestling with bucket lids...

 

[Golddiggie]

Just checked on what's in my primary... Might not be free in time to make this on Sunday. Of course, I could just wait for it to be free, or I can suffer with the bucket, or pick up another 6 gallon primary carboy...

As I've mentioned, I typically wait until there's at least a long enough time between airlock movement to indicate significant slowing before racking to secondary. I have (also) been taking hydrometer readings before racking to make sure it's not just stuck. So far, the gravity has been either where it's FG would be (on target) or damned close to it before I rack.

Before I pull what's in primary, I'll take a hydrometer reading (of course). If it's not where I expect it to be, then it will stay where it is... I did use a starter in that one, and it went off like a rocket (almost made a rocket out of the airlock and bung the first time). I'll be using a blow-off tube on the next brew at the start. Removing it once things are calm enough to not bugger the airlock (and paint my kitchen in brew)... :cross:

 

[abbot555]

I don't think the low lovibond crystal is appropriate. You might want to go for dark crystal for more dark fruit character.

+1

But with darker grains you will also want to increase the IBU's to balance it out.

 

[Golddiggie]

I'm looking to have this within the color range of the style... So under 22SRM, with under 20 being better... With the changes I've already made, there would need to be more radical changes if I was to add more dark (the chocolate malt listed, or roasted barley) grains to the recipe.

So if you think you can formulate a better blend, while still retaining the flavor profile I'm looking for (not harsh/bitter, more caramel flavors, with a sweetness that also has hints of honey flavors as well as chocolate tones) post up the changes. Don't just say "oh, less of this, or more of that" give me numbers (even percentages would help)... I have the image in my mind of what I'm looking for, but it's more difficult to put it into words, at least for now.

Updating the LME/DME balance to get back to where I really want the SRM to be...

 

[dcp27]

if you want honey flavors, why not use honey malt? btw, most amber extracts already include about 5% C60, so id go with a diff crystal to steep to add more complexity.

 

[Golddiggie]

if you want honey flavors, why not use honey malt? btw, most amber extracts already include about 5% C60, so id go with a diff crystal to steep to add more complexity.

"honey malt" is not in the inventory (online) for the LHBS site... Unless you're calling something different by that name.

I guess I'll just have to bounce the recipe against the person at the LHBS to get his input on it.

BTW, I'm looking for hints of honey, not strong tones, or overtones here. Which is one of the reasons I selected the hops I did (especially the flavor hop)... Also, a 'most include' statement is nigh on useless... When something is just 5% one item, that means little impact to the whole when it's under 35% of the total... Even adjusting for that ~1.75% means 2oz less of the 60L crystal malt... I've already made that change in my recipe here and will alter the one posted here to match... I've also pretty much inverted the LME/DME values, from what I posted originally...

 

[maskednegator]

1. Racking while there is still airlock activity is a terrible, terrible, very bad practice and is a recipe for stalled fermentation, and green apple or buttery off-flavors. Do not rack until the gravity has stabilized.
2. There is a wide range of crystal malts. No one is telling you to use roast barley or chocolate malt instead of crystal 10, we are suggesting you swap out the crystal 10 for crystal 80 or crystal 120. Quibbling about 23 SRM instead of 20 SRM is not a real concern, as the only way you'd be able to tell the difference is with some flash cards to carefully compare the beer against.

 

[Golddiggie]

1. Racking while there is still airlock activity is a terrible, terrible, very bad practice and is a recipe for stalled fermentation, and green apple or buttery off-flavors. Do not rack until the gravity has stabilized.

As I stated, I check with the hydrometer BEFORE I rack to secondary to make sure it's where it needs to be. I'm not going to use just one fermentor for the brew... I know there are posts here where people do the 1, 2, 3 method, but I'm not doing that hard day count. If something needs more time in primary, it gets more time in primary. If it's "done" for primary, then it goes to secondary to condition or have additional elements added.

2. There is a wide range of crystal malts. No one is telling you to use roast barley or chocolate malt instead of crystal 10, we are suggesting you swap out the crystal 10 for crystal 80 or crystal 120. Quibbling about 23 SRM instead of 20 SRM is not a real concern, as the only way you'd be able to tell the difference is with some flash cards to carefully compare the beer against.

I've been reading the flavor profiles of the different crystal malts, which is what I based my decision upon. If the information available (in books and online) isn't accurate, then what the hell is it there for? At best, I'm working with dated information (at the newest, from 2008 it seems, at worst close to a decade old) where flavor profiles, product descriptions, names, etc. could be very different. What one person calls "Dark Crystal" can be very different when you go to a different source (the LHBS has dark crystal with a L rating of over 160).

Adjusting grain bill again in a moment...

 

[brrman]

As I stated, I check with the hydrometer BEFORE I rack to secondary to make sure it's where it needs to be.

I always make sure my hydrometer does not move at all in several minutes before I even bother with my hydro.

 

[Golddiggie]

Since no one seems to be picking up on this from the OP, I'll put it up front...

What grain/malt would be a solid replacement for at least a good chunk of the DME/LME in this?? Would English (or Scotish) 2 row be a good one? This would be my first partial mash brewing attempt, so solid advice (and how much in pounds to get) would be really helpful. Such as if I wanted to eliminate the Amber LME completely, and only use some of the DME listed, to balance out, how much crushed malt should I get? IF I was to get a 10 pound bag of crushed malt (again, which one?) how much extract would I be looking at to get ot the same OG (or in the right ballpark)??

With this in mind, I'll plan to bring a water sample to the LHBS so that we can test it's PH and know if it's in the safe range or not. I'd rather test it and get whatever I need to correct it (if needed) then have things go badly on brew day.

 

[dcp27]

"honey malt" is not in the inventory (online) for the LHBS site... Unless you're calling something different by that name.

I guess I'll just have to bounce the recipe against the person at the LHBS to get his input on it.

honey malt only goes by honey malt, and no crystal will give you a more honey flavor than it. I'm guessing the LHBS is barleycorn?

BTW, I'm looking for hints of honey, not strong tones, or overtones here. Which is one of the reasons I selected the hops I did (especially the flavor hop)...

you didn't list any flavor hop.

Also, a 'most include' statement is nigh on useless...

I only say most include, because I haven't read every extract. and its actually closer to 4oz c60when you adjust it to all-grain

 

[dcp27]

As I stated, I check with the hydrometer BEFORE I rack to secondary to make sure it's where it needs to be.

just because theres no more activity, doesn;t mean the yeast aren;t still working. you'll get a much more conditioned beer leaving it in primary for the 2 extra weeks than the secondary. just as clear too

What grain/malt would be a solid replacement for at least a good chunk of the DME/LME in this??

ditch all the amber LME for 5lbs of 2-row. I prefer marris otter or golden promise, but any will do. if you want more grain, convert each lb of your DME to roughly 1.6lbs of 2-row

 

[maskednegator]

As I stated, I check with the hydrometer BEFORE I rack to secondary to make sure it's where it needs to be. I'm not going to use just one fermentor for the brew... I know there are posts here where people do the 1, 2, 3 method, but I'm not doing that hard day count. If something needs more time in primary, it gets more time in primary. If it's "done" for primary, then it goes to secondary to condition or have additional elements added.

It's not just about gravity stabilizing, it's about letting the yeast clean up their mess - especially acetalhyde. Racking after a week on a 1.087 beer is bad, bad, bad.

I've been reading the flavor profiles of the different crystal malts, which is what I based my decision upon. If the information available (in books and online) isn't accurate, then what the hell is it there for? At best, I'm working with dated information (at the newest, from 2008 it seems, at worst close to a decade old) where flavor profiles, product descriptions, names, etc. could be very different. What one person calls "Dark Crystal" can be very different when you go to a different source (the LHBS has dark crystal with a L rating of over 160).

Adjusting grain bill again in a moment...

You were obsessing over the precise SRM of your beer and whether or not that matches the BJCP guidelines, so I was offering help to better align the flavor of your beer with those guidelines. If you want a honey sweetness to your beer, that's fine, but it's going to be well outside of what one would expect in an old ale, hence the suggestion to switch to something with more dark fruit character.



EDIT: I didn't realize you updated your OP with the new grain bill. Looks great, but you could ditch the 0 minute addition if you wanted to. In 3 years, it won't make a difference.

 

[Golddiggie]

EDIT: I didn't realize you updated your OP with the new grain bill. Looks great, but you could ditch the 0 minute addition if you wanted to. In 3 years, it won't make a difference.

In three years I doubt there will be any left... If there is, then it will be good to see how it's changed. The 0 minute hops were there to try and get some of what they offer for flavors into the mix.

I'm sure no one here, that's been brewing for X years ever did things that people brewing for more years would scream at them for. This is my FOURTH brewing coming up... Cut me some slack people... It's like expecting a 4 year old to run the Boston Marathon, and win. I've only had one brew session where there was someone else with me (last weekend) so I'm pretty much on my own here. Learning on my own (for the majority) or taking the advice from the LHBS people as well as a couple of boards.

ditch all the amber LME for 5lbs of 2-row. I prefer marris otter or golden promise, but any will do. if you want more grain, convert each lb of your DME to roughly 1.6lbs of 2-row

Running with that, would convert the Amber LME and a good chunk of the extra light DME into 10 pounds of Pale Malt (2 row) UK... I would still keep 3 pounds of the DME, although I might drop that too... Need to go over it with the LHBS guys to make sure I have the right gear to do this right (will get a nylon grain bag since I don't have a mash tun yet). Probably need to pick up a larger pot to do this even with the bag (largest I have right now is the 16 quart)...

Printing out both versions of the recipe so that I have them on hand...

 

[abbot555]

I'm looking to have this within the color range of the style... So under 22SRM, with under 20 being better... With the changes I've already made, there would need to be more radical changes if I was to add more dark (the chocolate malt listed, or roasted barley) grains to the recipe.

So if you think you can formulate a better blend, while still retaining the flavor profile I'm looking for (not harsh/bitter, more caramel flavors, with a sweetness that also has hints of honey flavors as well as chocolate tones) post up the changes. Don't just say "oh, less of this, or more of that" give me numbers (even percentages would help)... I have the image in my mind of what I'm looking for, but it's more difficult to put it into words, at least for now.

Updating the LME/DME balance to get back to where I really want the SRM to be...

Type: Extract (interested in trying as a partial mash too, so feedback/help there would be great)
Estimated OG: 1.087
Estimated FG: 1.022
Estimated Color: 23.0
Estimated ABV: 8.47%

8 lbs Extra Light DME
1.5 lb Crystal Malt 60L
.25 oz British Chocolate Malt 80L
.25 oz American Chocolate Malt
1 lb Honey (any type)
Steep the grain for 30 at the temp you stated.
Add the honey at the end of the boil with the temp off for 10 min.

Just a thought, based on the flavors you want. The honey wont come thru with the darker malts in there but does not mean you cant use any.

 

[dcp27]

Need to go over it with the LHBS guys to make sure I have the right gear to do this right (will get a nylon grain bag since I don't have a mash tun yet).

a pot and a bag is all you need. i'm guessing you already saw this, but just to be safe: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/

however, all that grain won't fit into a 16qt pot. I've done 12lbs in a 20qt pot and that was to the brim, so my guess is 10lbs would be a little too much (plus with your specialty grains its way too much), so I'd probably cut it back to 8lbs total grain to be safe.... on the other-hand, if you are gung-ho about that much grain, there is a seldomly used technique where you use the first runnings of part of your grain bill as the mash water for the remainder of the grain bill.

 

[dotnetdotcom]

"honey malt" is not in the inventory (online) for the LHBS site... Unless you're calling something different by that name.

Gambrius Honey Malt

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

In three years I doubt there will be any left... If there is, then it will be good to see how it's changed. The 0 minute hops were there to try and get some of what they offer for flavors into the mix.

Hop additions at flameout primarily contribute aroma, not flavor. Aroma will dissipate before three years, so you basically are adding hops to get nothing back out of it.

I'm sure no one here, that's been brewing for X years ever did things that people brewing for more years would scream at them for. This is my FOURTH brewing coming up... Cut me some slack people... It's like expecting a 4 year old to run the Boston Marathon, and win. I've only had one brew session where there was someone else with me (last weekend) so I'm pretty much on my own here. Learning on my own (for the majority) or taking the advice from the LHBS people as well as a couple of boards.

You're asking people for help and they are offering you advice on your process and ingredients. I guess I don't understand why you are getting cranky about it. If you want to follow a process that risks creating problems with your beer that's your decision...

 

[Golddiggie]

So maybe I wasn't thinking so clearly last night...

After going over the partial mash and full mash threads (stickies), and printing the informative sections (first 12-14 printed pages of each) I'll be heading to the LHBS with those, my recipe's and other notes to discuss with the people there. I have some pots (3 8qt and one 16qt right now) that I could use for either a PM or kitchen AG batch... Or get one larger pot to use with what I have now (would prefer to just use what I've got)...

I've also made up a list of yeasts that I could use (other than those listed above) which I'll use a starter with (1 gallon jug, at least 1/2 full)... I'm planning to see if I can use the 8 quart pots I have to mash the grain, then sparge to the 16 qt pot... Or pick up a 5-7 gallon brew pot (just a pot, no spigot on it yet) to hold everything once ready.

Also been reading up (other threads here, especially the stickies) and there are a good number of people that go from primary (anything from a few days to a few weeks) to secondary (also a range of times) before bottling/kegging... SO, saying to leave it in primary and not use any secondary doesn't hold any weight for me. Especially since I'm thinking of using the secondary (or tertiary) for flavor adds...

I'll discuss the pot boil hop add with the LHBS people too... I might just reserve those and do a dry-hop with this brew...

Living in an apartment, with no place outside to set up for brewing, I need to do everything in the kitchen. So, that limits the hardware I use some. It also impacts what I ferment in. It does look like last weekend's brewing will be in primary until at least next weekend. We ARE going to rack to secondary there since we need to add flavor elements to it. That will free up that primary carboy for use in another brewing.

Look at things from my side for a moment... It's like I was asking for directions (while driving) to a place I've never been to, and then being told how to drive my own vehicle... How long would YOU put up with that before venting onto those people??? :cross:

 

[Golddiggie]

Picked up the supplies for this brew today. Going with the partial mash method. I was able to get two 5 gallon pots at a discount (minor dents/dings in them, nothing to impact volume, more cosmetic) so I'm going to try DeathBrewer's PM method (from the stickie).

Recipe as it stands:
3 pounds Extra Light DME
10 pounds Pale Malt, 2 row
6 ounces Crystal Malt 60L
4 ounces Crystal Malt 90L (they were out of 80L)
4 ounces Crystal Malt 120L
4 ounces Chocolate Malt
1 ounce Northern Brewer hops (pellets) 8% AA (60 minute boil)
1 ounce Fuggles hops (pellets) 4.8% AA (45 minute boil)
Wyeast #1318 London Ale III (activated already, will be making a starter shortly).

I have a gas stove, so controlling the heat under the pots will be better.

Planning on using 3-3.25 gallons of water in the first pot to cook the grains at around 150F for 60 minutes. Plan to sparge into second pot with ~3 gallons of water at 160-170F water for ~20 minutes. Since I'm not 100% sure of how much water, plus grains, I'll be able to have in the pots, I'm planning on heating up at least part of the water in a third pot, so that I can put more in to make sure I have enough. Probably start with 2 gallons in each pot, with another 2-3 gallons in another pot. I'd rather need to add more water to the pots, once I've put the grain in (water at the correct temperature) than have hot water spilling onto the stove, or having to stop before all the grain has been added. I'm planning on up to 4 gallons of water in either pot but I hope to use a little less. I'll fill the first pot as high as I can get it while leaving enough space to be safe. Depending on how this time goes, I might go and get another (larger) pot... Restaurant Depot has both stainless steel and aluminum pots at very good rates. They also have aluminum ones for even less, but I'm not sold (yet) that aluminum is a good choice here.

I'm on a tight budget right now, so if I can get it to work with the two new pots (discounted due to dings) then I'll use them until finances improve.

Tossing this one out there... Would sparging with two pots be a viable option (so that I can get better conversion)? Or should I just use the two 5 gallon pots with as much water as will fit?

 

[dcp27]

Tossing this one out there... Would sparging with two pots be a viable option (so that I can get better conversion)? Or should I just use the two 5 gallon pots with as much water as will fit?

Do you mean batch sparge in one pot and then again in another? That would be fine.

Forgot to mention two things earlier:
1) I highly recommend getting a large SS strainer to sit across your pots cuz holding 10+lbs of wet grain while it drains sucks

2) why the 45min hop add? you'll get no flavor/aroma out of it

 

[Golddiggie]

Do you mean batch sparge in one pot and then again in another? That would be fine.

Forgot to mention two things earlier:
1) I highly recommend getting a large SS strainer to sit across your pots cuz holding 10+lbs of wet grain while it drains sucks

2) why the 45min hop add? you'll get no flavor/aroma out of it

Either a second pot, or split it between two pots to sparge... The next size pot I have (after the two 5 gallons I picked up today) is a 16 quart pot...

I have a couple of strainers (SS of course) that I can use to help hold the bag up...

Tweaked the hops to 70 minutes for the NB, and 15 for Fuggles... I also have a packet (1oz) of Cascade (7.4% AA) that I could use if I really need to add more for bittering...

Starter is almost to the right temperature so that I can pitch the yeast into it...

 

[Golddiggie]

If I use the Cascade hops I have on hand as well (to get a higher IBU without boiling the Northern Brewer hops for over an hour, I can do the following hop times.

Northern Brewer boil: 45 minutes
Cascade boil: 30 minutes
Fuggles boil: 10 minutes

As that stands, the IBU goes to about 40... Any reason to not use the Cascade hops (for bittering) in this?

 

[Golddiggie]

Since my yeast starter isn't ready, I'm not brewing today (plan to brew tomorrow)... With the 5 gallon pots I have now, should I plan on 1qt/pound, 1.25qt/pound or try to squeeze in 1.5qt/pound of grain for the mash and/or sparge water? I'm looking to go for the maximum efficiency that my current gear/pots will allow. Since this is my first time with this much grain (only used specialty grain so far) I'm uncertain of how much water I'll actually be able to fit.

I'm also thinking about pulling about 2 gallons from the first pot (while sparging in the other) and reducing/boiling it. I have a heavy bottom clad SS pot (16 quart) that I can use for that step while sparging. Basically, to get a bit more color into the brew than I'm seeing now, plus (I hope) to get something better than I would otherwise.

I'm still reading up on how to properly process the grains to get the best result possible (again with the gear I have right now)... I am planning on using as much water as will safely fit into the pots (with the grain), and looking to maintain temperatures within the optimal range (no coolers yet, so I'll be watching this one the stove the entire time)...