Oktoberfest

[jakwi]

Hydrometer.

It looked pretty clear on top, hard to tell though since I ferment in a sanke keg, the sample looked relatively clear also.

 

[jakwi]

You know I also should mention that my of was higher than expected by 7 points 1.064 instead of the expected 1.057 predicted. So from that perspective the FG of tonight, 1.022 isn't that high, but the airlock keeps bubbling so that makes me think it still has some room to come down yet.

 

[ba-brewer]

If the sample was still cold you get to remove a couple points.

Did you all grain and how did it go, hit your gravity and temps OK? If you were high on your temp maybe your wort is less fermentable then the recipe. And if you have a slightly higher starting gravity then would add some too.

Did you use the Bavarian lager yeast, make a big starter and give it oxygen when you pitched? It also says that yeast has a medium-high flocculation so if the beer is pretty clear chances are the yeast are done. I would warm it up for a few days for the diacetyl rest and check gravity maybe it will wake back up.

 

[ba-brewer]

The airlock will start bubbling again just from the increase in temp, but maybe it will stir up some yeast back into action too.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Anyway the original recipe calls to raise the temp after three weeks for a diacetyl rest. That would start today. I decided to take a sample before raising the temp. It is at 1.022. Expected FG is 1.014.

So my question is whether I should wait for the FG at 50f or let the diacetyl rest take it to FG from here.

If it took you 3 weeks to get from 1.064 to 1.022, then you didn't pitch nearly enough healthy yeast. So you either underpitched or your yeast were in really really bad shape. Lagers should take 7-10 days total. Your beer will probably be fine, but just realize this was far from ideal.

Typically, the d-rest will ferment the last 10-20%. You're already at that point, so bring up the temp to 63-65 and leave it there for the remainder (3-5 days).

 

[jakwi]

For 10 gallons (37.85 L)
12.0 lb (5.44 kg) | Munich malt
11.0 lb (4.99 kg) | German Pilsner malt
8.0 oz (227 g) | Caramel Munich malt
4.0 oz (113 g) | Aromatic malt
4.0 oz (113 g) | Biscuit malt
1.5 oz (42 g) | Tettnanger hops, 4.5% a.a. (60 min)
1.25 oz (35 g) | Hallertauer Mittelfruh hops, 4.4% a.a. (60 min)

RO water
Mash
1.5g | Calcium Chloride
1.5 g| Gypsum
5g | baking soda

kettle
8.75g | Calcium Chloride
1 g| Gypsum
2g | baking soda

1 gall decanted Starter | Wyeast Munich Lager (2308)

Mash temp ranged from 153 to 151F for 60min, No protein rest

Pure Oxygen for 120 seconds at 60F and then pitched

My Expected OG was 1.057, My actual OG was 1.064 I expected my efficiency to be 75% but it was actually 82%

So while my OG was higher than expected, I think it was due to higher efficiency, and given the mash temp the sugars should be fermentable.

I'm just not sure if a higher OG in a situation like this should result in a Higher FG, I don't think so, but ...

And I'm not sure if the expectation is that the FG will be reached before the diacetyl rest or after.

honestly I'm not detecting any diacetyl in the sample, it tasted very clean and neutral, not bitter or sweet. I think it'll be a success either way!

thanks again for the help

 

[SpeedYellow]

I'm just not sure if a higher OG in a situation like this should result in a Higher FG, I don't think so, but ...

I've found that WY 2308 finishes all over the board, so you might even be at FG of 1.022. Or it might finish at 1.014. Have to wait and see.

And I'm not sure if the expectation is that the FG will be reached before the diacetyl rest or after.

The d-rest should begin when you're 10-20% away from completion. You are at or past that point.

honestly I'm not detecting any diacetyl in the sample, it tasted very clean and neutral, not bitter or sweet. I think it'll be a success either way!

A taste test now tells you nothing about diacetyl!! You have to do a proper diacetyl test, which involves heating a sample. (please google it). Your beer may contain diacetyl precursors, which after being exposed to a bit of oxygen (such as in the bottling / kegging process), will turn into diacetyl. Quite common for a beer to turn into a diacetyl bomb after 3 weeks in the keg. That's why I just do 5-day d-rests across the board.

 

[jakwi]

If it took you 3 weeks to get from 1.064 to 1.022, then you didn't pitch nearly enough healthy yeast. So you either underpitched or your yeast were in really really bad shape. Lagers should take 7-10 days total. Your beer will probably be fine, but just realize this was far from ideal.

Typically, the d-rest will ferment the last 10-20%. You're already at that point, so bring up the temp to 63-65 and leave it there for the remainder (3-5 days).

I have to say that is really interesting. I've never pitched so much yeast for any ale. I had a fresh packet from the LHBS and then I made a 1 gallon starter, which I cold crashed for about a week before the brew day. Hurricane Irma came through on the weekend I had planned to brew so that delayed everything. The fermentation activity did seem sort of sedate. Usually with an Ale I'll get a period of 3 to 4 days of crazy activity and then it'll slow down to something more consistent. With this lager it was more like the later activity you might see in an ale. A few bubbles every 10 seconds or so. It seemed slow, but I thought it was because it was a lager.

Thanks for the guidance. I'll bring up the temp tonight.

 

[jakwi]

That's why I just do 5-day d-rests across the board.

Thank you for this tidbit. I'll definitely give it at least that long.

 

[SpeedYellow]

I have to say that is really interesting. I've never pitched so much yeast for any ale. I had a fresh packet from the LHBS and then I made a 1 gallon starter, which I cold crashed for about a week before the brew day. Hurricane Irma came through on the weekend I had planned to brew so that delayed everything. The fermentation activity did seem sort of sedate. Usually with an Ale I'll get a period of 3 to 4 days of crazy activity and then it'll slow down to something more consistent. With this lager it was more like the later activity you might see in an ale. A few bubbles every 10 seconds or so. It seemed slow, but I thought it was because it was a lager.

Thanks for the guidance. I'll bring up the temp tonight.

Yup, there it is. 1 packet with 1 gal starter isn't enough for a 10-gal batch. (I haven't run the numbers but suspect it's not even close). And cold crashing for a week really puts yeast to sleep -- the worst fermentations I've had were because of cold crashing the lager yeast. A "vitality starter" can help rouse them after cold crashing. But still, you didn't have enough to start with.

 

[jakwi]

So with 2308 what would be the recommended starter for a 10 gal batch? two consecutive 1 gal starters? three? I guess it's just my inexperience with lager's but it seems like a ton of yeast, given that a 1 liter starter on ale's has been sufficient.

 

[SpeedYellow]

So with 2308 what would be the recommended starter for a 10 gal batch? two consecutive 1 gal starters? three? I guess it's just my inexperience with lager's but it seems like a ton of yeast, given that a 1 liter starter on ale's has been sufficient.

You'll have to play around with the yeast calculators online. You're probably around half the recommended cell count, which in my experience can be ok if you can keep the yeast happy. BUT cold crashing for a week really makes them unhappy. Generally you need AT LEAST one pack of yeast for every 5 gals, so you should have used 2. And a vitality starter the day of pitching. And that's assuming the yeast packs weren't old, and were stored well.

Lagers are very different from ales!

That said, we don't know for sure the underpitch was an issue since we don't know when your fermentation finished. It might have completed 2 weeks ago, since 1.022 FG wouldn't be unheard of (I've seen it, but rarely, with this yeast).

 

[TheHopfather]

I just punched your numbers into a starter calculator for fun to see how much you under pitched. For a 10 gal batch at 1.064 SG the calculator is saying you should pitch 890 billion cells. A single packet of yeast contains ~100 billion cells straight out of the factory.

If you used a stir plate and went with a 1 gal (3.7L) starter, you should have ended up with ~620 billion cells. It looks like you under pitched by about 30%. I'm sure the beer will be good, but in the future keep in mind that lagers have a much higher pitch rate (1.5 million/ml) then ales (0.75 million/ml).

Here is a link to my favorite starter calculator - http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

Edit: I just noticed your question above. I'm assuming that the 1 gal starter was your largest vessel for starters? If so the calculator is recommending a 3 step starter for this beer. Step 1 = 1L, step 2 = 4L and step 3 = 3L. That would get you up to 970 billion cells which is a good, healthy pitch.

 

[ba-brewer]

This is a good yeast calculator, if any of the fields turns red you are outside of best practices for growing yeast.
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

most likely one packet of yeast in a gallon starter is too big of a jump and multi step start might be better. If you don't have a minimal yeast to wort density the yeast can get stressed.

 

[jakwi]

Edit: I just noticed your question above. I'm assuming that the 1 gal starter was your largest vessel for starters? If so the calculator is recommending a 3 step starter for this beer. Step 1 = 1L, step 2 = 4L and step 3 = 3L. That would get you up to 970 billion cells which is a good, healthy pitch.

That's just mind blowing for me. I did use a stir plate, and my packet of yeast was probably a month old. My stirplate is just a simple computer fan homemade unit. I usually set the speed on a pretty low setting to prevent the stir bar from losing position.

I looked at the date, and it didn't seem that old at the time, but I didn't really pay attention. It never occurred to me to use a calculator since I figured a gallon starter was overkill! Oh well, live and learn. Next time I'll definitely use the calculator. I don't think it's messed up the product though since it tastes/smells/looks good. I will do a 5 day diacetyl rest, and then cold crash with gelatin for another week or so before kegging.

 

[jakwi]

This is a good yeast calculator, if any of the fields turns red you are outside of best practices for growing yeast.
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php

most likely one packet of yeast in a gallon starter is too big of a jump and multi step start might be better. If you don't have a minimal yeast to wort density the yeast can get stressed.

ok, so starting with a 2L first round is the best bet and then stepping up to another gallon.

 

[SpeedYellow]

ok, so starting with a 2L first round is the best bet and then stepping up to another gallon.

Actually, brewing a 5-gal batch then pitching your 10 gal on that yeast cake is best!

2-step starters aren't necessary; imho a total pain. Definitely you need 2-4 packs to start with for 10 gal. The cold crash really screws up yeast, so try to avoid that, but if you can't then use that yeast in a vitality starter on brew day. Remember you can pitch half the recommended amounts and be perfectly fine as long as the yeast are happy. Yeast vigor is FAR more important than a calculated cell count.

My current process for 5-gal is using 1-2 packs with a 1L starter on brew day on a stir plate for 8 hrs. And my fermentations kick off within several hours and complete 7-10 days. So no cold crashing the starter needed, and the yeast stay happy. The yeast calculators would say I'm underpitching but results prove otherwise.

 

[ba-brewer]

Personally doing a vitality starter on brew days would make me nervous, I have had some yeast that take a good day to get going. I would rather wake up cold yeast then have wort sitting waiting for yeast. But to each their own.

For someone starting out I say do thing to establish best practice guideline and once you have a some experience to know what is normal then deviate.

Multi step is not a big deal if you have a large enough vessel and time, just pitch current step into the next step and continue. I cold crash all the time and don't notice bad side effects. Fridges don't get much colder than the wort they will fermenting, decant, pitch and oxygenate. My lagers finish in 7-10 days and that is with a 2 to 3 day diacetyl reset. Normally 36 to 48 hrs post pitch a medium gravity lager will be over 50% to target attenuation, another couples days and it is done attenuation.

 

[cmac62]

Personally, I would just use the W34/70; its a nice, neutral lager yeast. Two packs usually does the job.

I posted a thread several days ago about my process. That way you don't have to decant at all. I make the starter from the wort I am gonna use. Read up on it here.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=631830

Good thread, I read it and like the idea. Will try it out next brew day maybe. :rockin: Just started making starters. I usually pitch one WL vile/pack for all 5 gal batches and see what happens. I may be lucky, but it always turns into beer.

 

[jakwi]

Personally doing a vitality starter on brew days would make me nervous, I have had some yeast that take a good day to get going. I would rather wake up cold yeast then have wort sitting waiting for yeast. But to each their own.

For someone starting out I say do thing to establish best practice guideline and once you have a some experience to know what is normal then deviate.

Multi step is not a big deal if you have a large enough vessel and time, just pitch current step into the next step and continue. I cold crash all the time and don't notice bad side effects. Fridges don't get much colder than the wort they will fermenting, decant, pitch and oxygenate. My lagers finish in 7-10 days and that is with a 2 to 3 day diacetyl reset. Normally 36 to 48 hrs post pitch a medium gravity lager will be over 50% to target attenuation, another couples days and it is done attenuation.

I tend to agree with you. I've used starters for many years now without any issue, and I always cold crash and decant, although this was the first time I had my brewday delayed for so long. I think my biggest mistake was just that I had no idea I would need so much yeast. With the delay I had more than enough time to make a second step. Now I know, so next time it will go more smoothly.

I raised the temp to 65 for the diacetyl rest last night, so in a week I'll start the lager process. Hopefully it'll turn out ok. Thanks again to everyone for the help and guidance.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Just BTW, if you don't have the time, energy, or equipment to do a multi-step starter >1 gal, dry yeast in a lager works very well. I've used SafLager W-34/70 MANY times and it really does well*.

Granted, it's costly. For a 10-gallon batch (11 into fermenter) I basically buy 4 packs of yeast, sometimes 5 if the OG will be a little higher. That's >$20 per batch on yeast. That ends up costing the same and sometimes more than the total grain bill! So I try to always do two back-to-back lagers, harvesting the slurry for re-pitch on the next batch. That at least halves the per-batch yeast cost, which helps.

But it works.

*Note: I've tried S-23 and Mangrove Jack's M84 IIRC, it was their Bavarian lager strain, and neither really impressed me. SafLager W-34/70 has never failed me though.

 

[jakwi]

this is really good to know. thanks

 

[jakwi]

Well in the end it turned out pretty well. I learned a lot along the way.

One mistake I made was that my hops as purchased were roughly half the expected AA%. This resulted in a much lower IBU, approx. 10 versus my expected 20. So this took a malty recipe, and made it really malty!

Since I like Malty beers this is ok, but probably at the extreme edge of what I find acceptable.
OG 1.064
FG 1.018
21 day ferment, (probably to long, as it had basically finished)
5 day diacetyl rest followed by the diacetyl test ( seemed good by my untrained nose/Tastbuds)
7 day lager/Geletin clearing. Gelitin worked magic inside of a week. Crystal clear with a nice head

Brew to keg was 4 to 5 weeks. This probably could have been shortened, but I didn't want to rush it.

So I learned

1. that I really prefer beers that are more neutral.
2. that lagers require an absurd amount of yeast, and that I will likely need to make two consecutive starters.
3. how to perform a diacetyl rest
4. to pay attention to the expected AA in hops, vs what is available at the LHBS and to adjust my recipe on the fly if necessary.

Next time I think I'll try bwarbiany's recipe. Thanks again for all of the help.