Off-taste in maris otter-based bitter-help!

[rmeskill]

Hey all-so I did a Maris Otter-based English Bitter last week and it's come out a bit odd. Fermentation's not finished, but there's a definite off flavor/taste in the beer that I can't quite pinpoint. It's almost like it's 'sharp' or maybe a touch 'tart'. Not soured, just quite a strong flavor that doesn't taste like what I was expecting. I'm relatively new to bitters-I've done 4-two of them with pale malts and two with maris otter-both maris otters have come out like this and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. The pale malt versions have come out malty and understated like I expect a bitter to be-just not clear on what's going on with the maris otter malt... Here's my recipe/steps:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 22,00 l
Post Boil Volume: 19,11 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 19,00 l
Bottling Volume: 19,00 l
Estimated OG: 1,037 SG
Estimated Color: 27,7 EBC
Estimated IBU: 34,6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 67,00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 67,0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
2800,00 g Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5,9 EBC) Grain 1 83,6 %
400,00 g Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (236,4 EBC) Grain 2 11,9 %
150,00 g Biscuit Malt (45,3 EBC) Grain 3 4,5 %
12,00 g Goldings, East Kent [6,40 %] - First Wor Hop 4 13,2 IBUs
10,00 g Goldings, East Kent [6,40 %] - Boil 60,0 Hop 5 10,0 IBUs
12,00 g Fuggles [4,50 %] - Boil 20,0 min Hop 6 5,1 IBUs
0,50 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10,0 mins) Fining 7 -
17,00 g Goldings, East Kent [6,40 %] - Boil 10,0 Hop 8 6,2 IBUs
18,00 g Fuggles [4,50 %] - Boil 0,0 min Hop 9 0,0 IBUs
7,00 g Goldings, East Kent [6,40 %] - Boil 0,0 Hop 10 0,0 IBUs
1,0 pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) Yeast 11 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 3350,00 g
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 9,24 l of water at 70,3 C 64,4 C 75 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 16,62 l water at 75,6 C

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I've heard that some people don't like the taste of EKG and that it tastes metallic to them. Maybe it is a cilantro type thing where some people taste them and some people don't. It doesn't look like a recipe issue. Any signs of infection?

 

[rmeskill]

Shouldn't be the EKG, because EKG are in my pale malt bitters, as well. And no obvious signs of infection-healthy fermentation, still going now with some clusters of yeast at the top, but nothing that looks off, it's only the taste that isn't right. I'm in Hungary and Maris Otter only comes through sporadicly, but it's definitely of English origin-here's the shop I get it from:
http://www.beerodalom.hu/home/218-crisp-maris-otter-pale-ale-6-ebc-malata-01-kg.html

 

[ong]

What was your fermentation temperature? Tartness often has to do with yeast and fermentation, in my experience, and S-04 can produce those flavors.

 

[Yooper]

I dislike S04 and get a weird tart flavor out of it if it's fermented above about 64 degrees. Is that a possibility for you?

 

[rmeskill]

It's most definitely above 64 degrees here-it's well on the warm side around my house at the moment-on the order of 75-77, so maybe that's what's going on...

 

[paperairplane]

I'm also thinking yeast esters. MO is like using 2 row with some crystal 20. I've used it in many different styles and would never consider it tart.

 

[Yooper]

It's most definitely above 64 degrees here-it's well on the warm side around my house at the moment-on the order of 75-77, so maybe that's what's going on...

Oh, yikes! If your house is 75, then the fermenting beer could easily be 85! That would do it with any ale yeast, but with S04 it could come out positively nasty.

You can try putting your fermenter in a bin of water or a cooler, and add frozen water bottles to the water bath to keep it under 70 degrees. Ideally, using S04, it'd be under 65 (or even 62) but under 70 would improve the taste. If you can't get under 65, I'd suggest a different yeast strain but still keep the beer under 72 at the highest.

 

[rmeskill]

Not much I can do besides not brewing midsummer. I actually didn't even really think about this before-typically I brew heavier beers with lots of other flavors (just did a session IPA with S04 in about the same temps that came out just fine) so I guess it's just the low-alcohol, simple flavors of bitters that really come out bad with S04 in high temps. Come to think of it, the maris otter I made before was in September/October of last year, so chance is it was just hot, where the other bitters were in Feb/March, so that's probably it. Curious it only seems to affect lighter/simpler beers, though...

 

[paperairplane]

Exactly - think about Budweiser - there's nowhere to hide any flaw. Stouts, porters and IPA are all good at hiding fermentation errors, because they have strong flavors. This is why many consider pilsner to be one of the tougher styles to do really well.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Not much I can do besides not brewing midsummer. I actually didn't even really think about this before-typically I brew heavier beers with lots of other flavors (just did a session IPA with S04 in about the same temps that came out just fine) so I guess it's just the low-alcohol, simple flavors of bitters that really come out bad with S04 in high temps. Come to think of it, the maris otter I made before was in September/October of last year, so chance is it was just hot, where the other bitters were in Feb/March, so that's probably it. Curious it only seems to affect lighter/simpler beers, though...

Try what Yooper said. I made a porter that was getting warm and I put it in a plastic storage tub filled with water and a few frozen 1L water bottles. I had to take one bottle out because the temp dropped so much!

 

[rmeskill]

Yeah, for sure, I just guess I didn't think of a bitter as a 'light' beer before now. For sure I've experienced off-flavors when making pilsners, but that's also with lager yeast and I'm as careful about my temperatures as I can be. Guess I'll have to wait until cooler weather before brewing a bitter again-kinda annoying to know this is a 20L batch basically wasted...

 

[JGF]

Not much I can do besides not brewing midsummer.

There are still a few options. Swamp cooler type setups can lower the fermentation a good number of degrees. Finding a cooler place in the house might be an option. Otherwise, a better option is to do what many breweries had to do historically, change what beers you brew over the course of a year to take advantage of fermentation temperature changes.

There are many yeasts and beer styles that ferment well at warmer temperatures. I did a Saison with Wyeast 3711 last year and it turned out really good in a basically uncontrolled summer fermentation temperature. We're doing a Flemish ale that is in a heated chamber in the basement through the summer.

A good list of yeasts to try at this time of the year: http://beerandwinejournal.com/high-temp-yeast/

 

[ncbrewer]

Mangrove Jack's has a strain called Workhorse. The stated temperature range for ale is 68 - 90F. I haven't tried it, so can't make a recommendation.

 

[rmeskill]

Yeah, all great ideas. Unfortunately I'm largely limited to my lhbs, which is limited to what they can order from a single Polish supplier who ships here, so I don't have a lot of variety. Additionally, I live in an apartment in Europe, it gets hot but don't have central air, so there's no room that stays consistent enough. I do have a basement, but that'd be a nightmare to haul things down to and up from, so I guess I'll just stick to warm-weather yeasts in summer and try to just double-down in spring and fall-not a terrible idea to actually brew with the seasons, anyway...

 

[lowtones84]

As Yooper mentioned, the "swamp cooler" idea is about your only hope. Since fermentation is well under way though, it might be too late. In the future, try to keep the fermentation in the low-mid 60's for the first few days with the "swamp cooler" method, or as you mention stick to saison yeasts and the like in the summer.

Still, it's not even done ferementing at the moment, so don't be too quick to judge. It may come out alright after all, and if not it's a learning experience!

 

[secondbase]

Definitely look into the swamp cooler method. My room temp in the summer where I live is ~75ºF. I use the swamp cooler method for my beers, but still mainly brew saisons in the summertime because I just can't keep beers below 67º for very long. I brew those styles in the spring, fall and winter instead.