Off flavors from "saison"

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Gritsak

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I took a gamble and cultured yeast from a bottle of Boulevard Saison to use in a saison i brewed about 5-6 weeks ago. I tried emailing the brewery to confirm it was the same strain used in the primary, but never heard back. The starter had a belgian character, so i assumed it was the same as the primary yeast.

Based on my research i went ahead and started the fermentation temps around 75-80 degrees. It probably got as high as 85-90 since it was kept in my hot water heater closet. Initial samples had no off flavors and it tasted pretty clean. It fermented extremely fast (blow-off within 6 hours) and finished in about 4 days at 1.014 (OG was 1.054). I was hoping it would go a little lower, but it stayed steady at 1.014 over two weeks. I then cold crashed it for about 2 weeks at 42 degrees and kegged it about a week ago.

Well, that's where the problems begin. After 5 days of carb'ing i took a sample and it's overly fruity/cidery, almost like white grape juice, with a pretty strong green apple flavor. This was not present in any of the gravity sample i tried.

Any chance this will fade over time? I'm assuming this is acetaldehyde and is related to the high fermentation temps and the fact that it may not have been an actual saison strain.
 
The Boulevard Smokestack series Saison that I've had is a brett saison. You may be tasting the precursors of brett.
 
I do have a couple of brett beers going right now, but i have all separate equipment and am pretty careful about sanitizing.

The yeast was from their regular saison. It's actually not made anymore and I think replaced by the "farmhouse ale".

If it doesn't change in the next couple weeks i'm considering putting it back in a carboy with brett and bugs through. There plenty of sugars left and nothing to lose at this point
 
I had the Boulevard saison once.. It was awful. WAY too sweet, and too many adjucts. Maybe the brett dries it out after a few years?
 
I didn't have the same experience at all. I found it to be a solid version of the style.

Just to clarify again this is NOT yeast from their saison brett. It was there regular saison that is no longer brewed.

Label looks like this:

57977.jpg
 
I did the same thing this August, same bottle, same yeast. My beers have an overwheliming fruity/citrus smell to them - almost like grapefruit.

I however, don't have the green apple flavor. I'll have another bottle tonight and look for the green apples.

To my knowledge all of Blvd strains are proprietary and the yeast in the saison has to be a belgian yeast, imo.
 
My Guess is the ferment temps were way too high. Even when using Belgian yeast it's best to start off in the low to mid 60's and slowly raise the temp. Perhaps you finish in the 70's but start cool to reduce harsh alcohols and over the top fruit flavors. Pitching rates also have a huge effect on the flavors produced.

Or possibly it's infected but if it was then I expect the FG to be much lower. Bret and most wild yeasts will attenuate much further them brewers yeasts.
 
Good point maida. I pitched in the high 60's and let it rise from the there and only let it get up to 80 after a couple days in to fermentation.
 
I agree with people about the fermentation starting out too high. Also, tasting a beer after 5 days in the bottle is not a good point to judge it. Give it 3 weeks and see how you feel.
 
I agree with people about the fermentation starting out too high. Also, tasting a beer after 5 days in the bottle is not a good point to judge it. Give it 3 weeks and see how you feel.

Although more time won't hurt, it is kegged, not bottled.

To my knowledge all of Blvd strains are proprietary and the yeast in the saison has to be a belgian yeast, imo.

There's no doubt the yeast is belgian, but i'm not convinced it's a "saison" strain. Most of what i read before brewing this suggested that getting good attenuation with saisons required a much warmer than typical fermentation from the get-go. What was the SG and FG of the beer you brewed? How long did you leave it in the primary?
 
Also, i de-carbed a sample and took the gravity last night...it's still at 1.014- same as it was about 5 days into fermenting. So i doubt it's brett causing the off flavors
 
Also, i de-carbed a sample and took the gravity last night...it's still at 1.014- same as it was about 5 days into fermenting. So i doubt it's brett causing the off flavors


Then it's probably fermentation related. Fermentation is the most crucial step in making great beer. Everybody seams focused on making wort with all the fancy stainless gear, HERMS, RIMS, pumps and whatnot. But really you'd be much better served putting a bigger effort into understanding and controlling the ferment. A great ferment will fix any number of problems with your wort. But great wort will be ruined by bad fermentation.
 
Then it's probably fermentation related. Fermentation is the most crucial step in making great beer. Everybody seams focused on making wort with all the fancy stainless gear, HERMS, RIMS, pumps and whatnot. But really you'd be much better served putting a bigger effort into understanding and controlling the ferment. A great ferment will fix any number of problems with your wort. But great wort will be ruined by bad fermentation.

I very much understand the importance of controlled fermentation. Hence the fact i have two temperature controlled mini-fridges dedicated for fermentation. My understanding with brewing saisons is that they don't follow the general guidelines for temperature, i.e. they need to be fermented considerably warmer than most beers. I believe my mistake was following fermentation guidelines for commercial strains when in reality i didn't know what strain i cultured from the blvd. bottle. Live and learn i guess. Gives me 5 gallons of beer to play around with.
 
I very much understand the importance of controlled fermentation. Hence the fact i have two temperature controlled mini-fridges dedicated for fermentation. My understanding with brewing saisons is that they don't follow the general guidelines for temperature, i.e. they need to be fermented considerably warmer than most beers. I believe my mistake was following fermentation guidelines for commercial strains when in reality i didn't know what strain i cultured from the blvd. bottle. Live and learn i guess. Gives me 5 gallons of beer to play around with.

Don't believe all that bunk about Belgians fermenting in the 80's. Commercial brewers use tall conical fermenters. The height of the fermenters and the weight of all that liquid puts extra pressure on the yeast. The pressure reduces ester production. To make up for that they jack up the temps. This does not translate well to the homebrew setting where we are using shallow fermenters with no pressure. Homebrew fermenters more closely mimic the shallow open Bath tub shaped fermenters historically used to make Begian beers. Read brew like a monk. All those Belgian brewers start the ferment in the 60's and let it raise slowly. Perhaps you could end near 80F but you need to start it in the 60's or things get way too funky.

Pitching rates are also a key to flavor production. By tweaking temps and pitching rates you can dial in the flavors you want. Re-brew and re-brew. Trial and error, Enjoy the journey :mug:
 
Although more time won't hurt, it is kegged, not bottled.



There's no doubt the yeast is belgian, but i'm not convinced it's a "saison" strain. Most of what i read before brewing this suggested that getting good attenuation with saisons required a much warmer than typical fermentation from the get-go. What was the SG and FG of the beer you brewed? How long did you leave it in the primary?

Don't have the recipe in front of me but OG~1.07 and it finished under 1.0005. It took an entire month in primary. I ended up adding .5lbs sugar at 3 weeks to get the yeast going again. THis was not ideal, but I needed the fermenter.

Our comments re temperature are referring to your starting temps. From all my reading the most recommended practice was pitching in the 60's, let it free rise into the 70's and ramp up to 80 after a few days. I fermented mine at 80 for a good amount of time, but I started low to avoid phenols and hot alcohols. Hopefully this flavor will age out a bit. Maybe it's because you just put it on gas?
 
First of all, green apple is *not* a typical brett flavor, contrary to whichever first page poster. It's a young beer/fresh carbed beer/stressed yeast off flavor.

There's no doubt the yeast is belgian, but i'm not convinced it's a "saison" strain. Most of what i read before brewing this suggested that getting good attenuation with saisons required a much warmer than typical fermentation from the get-go.

That's only really true of the single-strain "DuPont" cultures, such as WLP565 and Wyeast#3724. There are plenty of saison yeasts out there that ferment just fine at 75, such as Wyeast#3711. It's been a couple years since I tried the normal Boulevard Saison, but I remember it tasting more like the latter.

Have you followed this kegging procedure before? I find that my kegged beers pick up a tart, grassy flavor for a week or so after kegging that goes away pretty quickly as the CO2 evens out.
 
Don't have the recipe in front of me but OG~1.07 and it finished under 1.0005. It took an entire month in primary. I ended up adding .5lbs sugar at 3 weeks to get the yeast going again. THis was not ideal, but I needed the fermenter.

Our comments re temperature are referring to your starting temps. From all my reading the most recommended practice was pitching in the 60's, let it free rise into the 70's and ramp up to 80 after a few days. I fermented mine at 80 for a good amount of time, but I started low to avoid phenols and hot alcohols. Hopefully this flavor will age out a bit. Maybe it's because you just put it on gas?

Looking back at my notes, mine was in the primary in warm temps for about 3 weeks, then in cold crashed for another 2. I didn't see any change in gravity from my initial sample 4 days into fermentation. This is despite rousing the yeast a couple times. I used .5lbs of corn sugar in the boil, but didn't add any in the fermenter.

I've read some conflicting opinions on the starting temp for saisons, but from now on i'll stick to normal 65 then just let it ride from there on. I'm hoping the flavor mellows out, but it's pretty strong now so it would have to change considerably to be enjoyable. If it's the same in a week or so i'll probably rack it back to a carboy and pitch some brett i have in the fridge. I'm kind of bummed since it tasted nice and clean from the carboy samples.
 
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