Off flavor and taste-Help

[Menno]

Off flavor and smell with Hoppy beers. Here is a mystery and if you can solve it, I will be forever grateful.
I have brewed many west coast ipas and many Neipas.
All were good until around a year ago.
I know this is not to helpful, as I’m not “educated” in off flavor and smells. So I can’t precisely describe it or diagnose it. The best I can do is describing it as not fresh, unpleasant smell that penetrates in the beer. It does get slightly less over time.
It is only with my hoppy ipas and I can’t smell it with my British ales. However it can be that the heavier grain bill disguises it.
It appears after I keg my beer. I don’t think I have it when I transfer it from my ssbrew bucket pressurized under co2 in a starsan purged kegs.
I’m pretty particular about avoiding oxidation. I doubt it is that. My first neipas were good and I wasn’t yet that precise in avoiding O2.
Here is what I have tried and changed in order to diagnose the problem.
New batches of hops. Different yeasts ( all dry). Moved house and rebuild my entire kegerator with new taps and beer lines, cleaned the hell out of my kegs with PBW. Thought that it might be stressed yeast. Doubled quantity of yeast. Same result. Thought it might be temperature control of fermentation. Have that under control now too with a fermentation chamber and ferment at 65 degrees. Thought that it needed a diacetyl rest. Brought temp up to 68 degrees for two days; same result. Started to cold crash before kegging; same result.
I’m at a lost. What did I change that have this smell and off taste appear??
Somewhere during the process I had a new bottle of Co2 ( same source, food graded). Could it be this?
The only thing I have not done is clean the Co2 lines……
Does anybody have an idea without knowing what smell, off taste I have?
Sadly I don’t have my home brew crowd around me anymore where I live. Maybe a brewery is so kind to help me in diagnosing the type of smell/taste I have.
But I count on this forum Too!

 

[hotbeer]

Maybe bottle a few bottles if you make another batch. Then you'll have something to compare to and determine if the taste might be in your kegerator or other serving equipment.

Food grade CO2 isn't really an assurance there aren't off flavors. For that you need Beverage grade CO2. A difference of .4% in purity. Or 99.5 vs 99.9% CO2. So if you got a new CO2 fill then that might be the issue.

But usually it seems most posts I read eventually find some forgotten valve or something they didn't take apart and clean thoroughly that the beer flows through.

 

[Menno]

Thanks. Doubt it is any valve. Almost everything was replaced when I moved.
Will bottle a few next time. While oxidation might be an issue with the bottles, i can. At least determine if the off flavor is because of my kegging.
My co2 source has been always the. same.
Now I moved that will change. But still using my co2 from previous source.
It is an annoying puzzle.

 

[Jackson Akson]

When I struggle to identify an off flavor, I generally end up here: 18 Common Off Flavors In Beer (And How They're Caused)

 

[IslandLizard]

What kind of water are you using? Did it change?

All were good until around a year ago. [...]
It is only with my hoppy ipas and I can’t smell it with my British ales. [...]
It appears after I keg my beer. I don’t think I have it when I transfer it from my ssbrew bucket. [...]

That's indeed puzzling. Effects from oxidation tend to become more noticeable with time.

You started to notice the problem since you got new CO2.
There's a (very small) and fairly unlikely possibility that your CO2 (or your tank) has a problem.
Now that wouldn't explain it becoming less noticeable with time, we would expect it to get worse. It's also rare that the CO2 or the tank is tainted, but it's not totally unheard of.

Is the tank refilled or swapped?
To eliminate the CO2 as a possibility, could you possibly borrow a tank from a fellow homebrewer to test this?

Have you had others taste your beer, espesially the IPAs and NEIPAs?

 

[Menno]

What kind of water are you using? Did it change?

That's indeed puzzling. Effects from oxidation tend to become more noticeable with time.

You started to notice the problem since you got new CO2.
There's a (very small) and fairly unlikely possibility that your CO2 (or your tank) has a problem.
Now that wouldn't explain it becoming less noticeable with time, we would expect it to get worse. It's also rare that the CO2 or the tank is tainted, but it's not totally unheard of.

Is the tank refilled or swapped?
To eliminate the CO2 as a possibility, could you possibly borrow a tank from a fellow homebrewer to test this?

Have you had others taste your beer, espesially the IPAs and NEIPAs?

I’m not sure if it is the co2 tank either. Tank is swapped. I’m not sure if my off taste started exactly when I swapped the tank.
I make my own RO water and I had the exact same results when I moved from VT to MD.
I had others taste my beer but they are not “connaisseurs” so of no help in identifying my off smell.
Sadly I don’t know any homebrewer here. Very few I think. I’m at the eastern Chesapeake bay. If there is anybody out there who reads this post, let me know.

 

[Menno]

When I struggle to identify an off flavor, I generally end up here: 18 Common Off Flavors In Beer (And How They're Caused)

Thanks. I’m familiar with this article and it is excellent. I’m not sure I can match it with any certainty to my smell/taste.

 

[IslandLizard]

I make my own RO water and I had the exact same results when I moved from VT to MD.

Glad you reiterated this: the off-flavor and weird smell already started when brewing in Vermont.

Aside from valves, even kettle valves need periodic taking apart and cleaning, how is your transfer tubing? Maybe replace inspect and clean those? Or replace them.
What fermenters are you using, could those be the issue?
You need to inspect everything that touches your wort and beer and eliminate possible sources of infection. Don't forget spigots, racking cane, auto-siphons (ugh!), tubing, chillers, hoses, pumps ...

Sadly I don’t have my home brew crowd around me anymore where I live. Maybe a brewery is so kind to help me in diagnosing the type of smell/taste I have.

Being on the West side of the Eastern shore indeed limits your homebrew connections somewhat, unless you can hook up with someone local or a brewery.

Cult Classics is a brewery on Kent Island, the owners/brewers previously owned a homebrew store, Annapolis Homebrew.
There are other breweries:
https://marylandbeer.org/brewing-companies/current-members/
Homebrew clubs as your resource:
I only found 2 homebrew clubs on the Eastern shore peninsula, one in OC the other in Berlin. Those are almost as far away from you as my club, C.R.A.B.S. (we meet in Halethorpe), right off I-695. But we are quite good at finding off-flavors and other issues.
https://www.mdhomebrewers.com/?page_id=30
To completely eliminate the tank CO2 from the equation, you could naturally carbonate half a keg. Purge the keg with fermentation CO2, and fill only half-way with beer, and add your priming solution.
That should provide you with plenty of carbonated pints for tasting/testing without using CO2 from the tank. Use a picnic tap on a new line, or your kegerator.

For a control sample, keg the other half and use your CO2 tank as you normally would.

 

[Menno]

Thanks very much for your reply.
I know cult classic and might ask them to taste my beer.
I definitely willing to come to one of your home brew meetings!
I use a ssbrew tech bucket fermenter.
Always clean it well and take part the spigot.
However I have not replaced the tubing I use to transfer to keg. So I should do this.
I don’t think it is my fermenter as my beer smells good before I transfer it into my keg.
Yes I was thinking to bottle some of my next ipa and keg the rest to see if there is a difference. But possibly can purge keg with fermentation co2 and naturally carb.
I need to nail this as it is very frustrating.
I used to make great IPAs.
Now invested in a drop hopper to minimize o2 exposure, plus have a stand up freezer I use as a fermentation chamber to survive the hot summers here. So im enough invested in this. Thanks again

 

[IslandLizard]

Is your RO system still working as it should. Using a TDS meter?
How does your RO water taste?

A way to test your water/CO2 quickly by making some carbonated water. Use a soda pop bottle with a carbonation cap, filled with your chilled RO water.

 

[Menno]

Thanks for that idea to carbonate my RO water.
My RO water straight from my system taste normal. Basically of nothing. I don’t have a TDS meter, but was thinking of buying on.
I regret that I didn’t have my home brew friends in vermont taste my beer before I left. Particular as the BYO magazine was published in my town in manchester vt! And my home brew friends were editors of the magazine! I had great resources once.
Need to find the same here.

 

[Deadalus]

Seems unlikely but maybe something built up in your RO system. Same system that was in Vermont? Was it on a well in Vermont? Did the RO system experience any freeze events? Do you top off with cold RO water? You could sanitize the housings and replace the filters.

Could be your valve on the Brew bucket. Is it the older blue one? I have an inline valve like that and they are harder to keep clean. They don't come apart too easy. I think I replaced one actually because I couldn't get it apart. Maybe clean it reeeaaalllly good, working the valve open and closed, Starsan and possibly Iodophor too, then boil it.

 

[Deadalus]

I looked at the blue handle replacement at Brewtech as a reference, unfortunately those are $34. Not too bad but if it's not the problem you wouldn't want to spend it. There's a new valve on the latest buckets but the description says it uses garden hose threads and it wasn't actually listed for sale in the accessories section. If it was available, you could put an adapter on it. Could be a different solution with a 3 piece ball valve and in either NPT or TC. I never replaced anything with a racking arm like the bucket has to give an offhand solution.

And before you scrub the valve, get as good a look inside that you can to see if you spot any little bit of film or other goo. I clean in place with PBW and use brushes on valves but about every 10-12 brews break the valves down and there is stuff in there, especially on the wort side of things. That's why I make sure to sanitize the pump, valves, and chiller using recirculated boiling wort.

If it's not a sanitation issue something else it could be is hop creep but I am not so familiar with the mechanics of that to troubleshoot. You did mention it was predominantly an IPA issue. If you have gradually changed your procedures you may have introduced this concern.

 

[Jackson Akson]

Food for thought - based on my own brewing shortcomings: Some infections co-exist well with brewing yeast but won't produce noticeable impact until a given amount of time has passed. I brewed 24 consecutive batches of bottle bombs, which I was able to save by venting each bottle twice per day and re-crimping each cap. It ended up being a diastaticus infection that was surviving in a biofilms in my primaries. I chased bottling wands, buckets, hoses, spigots with no success. It wasn't until I stopped and waited (out of frustration) that I noticed fermentation had re-started in my secondaries. I decided to wait it out, but a month later it was still going, only now in my primaries as well. In the end I learned that sanitizers do not make good cleansers.... and that reading glasses make things clearer.

Wish you the best on this one. Losing a batch is a punch in the gut.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Send your beer(s) to a contest. Judges will give you feed back.

 

[VikeMan]

Send your beer(s) to a contest. Judges will give you feed back.

I couldn't agree more. And preferably more than one competition. I wrote an article a while back about why this is the best way to get good, unbiased feedback. For those with a BYO online subscription:
https://byo.com/article/how-good-is-your-homebrew/

 

[IslandLizard]

Send your beer(s) to a contest. Judges will give you feed back.

I couldn't agree more. And preferably more than one competition. I wrote an article a while back about why this is the best way to get good, unbiased feedback.

I strongly disagree.
Although you may get (useful) feedback they're not gonna fix the problem. The brewer already knows there's an issue.

The other thing is, the intention of beer competitions is not judging flawed beer. Overwhelming competitions and judges for mere feedback on bad beer is counterproductive for competitions.

 

[VikeMan]

Although you may get (useful) feedback they're not gonna fix the problem. The brewer already knows there's an issue.

But he has no idea what the problem is, and can't even describe the off flavor. Someone with an experienced palate needs to taste these beers, and BJCP judges (who don't know the brewer) will be unbiased and can best resist any tendency to sugar coat.

The other thing is, the intention of beer competitions is not judging flawed beer. Overwhelming competitions and judges for mere feedback on bad beer is counterproductive for competitions.

I believe competitions have more than one purpose. FWIW, the stated purpose (of the NHC) from the AHA: "The goal is simple: to celebrate the spirit of homebrewers. The competition gives homebrewers a chance to receive invaluable feedback on their entries and also recognizes the most outstanding, world-class homebrewed beer, mead and cider."

I would tend to agree that overwhelming competitions and judges for mere feedback on bad beer is counterproductive for competitions, if it's a truly bad (i.e. undrinkable) beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

But he has no idea what the problem is, and can't even describe the off flavor. Someone with an experienced palate needs to taste these beers, and BJCP judges (who don't know the brewer) will be unbiased and can best resist any tendency to sugar coat.

I'm not rebutting you, just find this model convoluted.
Mixing knowingly flawed beers into competitions dilutes (and skews) the judging flights, while the real issue of finding the exact flaw(s), possible causes, and suggesting remediations, may well be overlooked.

As a start getting feedback from other homebrewers, some of them may be beer judges or know how to judge beer, and possibly pro-brewers, will be faster and more efficient, IMO.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Not sure why sending it to a competition is a bad idea. Competitions are for getting your beer judged and getting objective feedback. It is not going to effect the judges or a flight of beers. I bet there will be worse beers in that flight.

Couple of other thoughts:
#1 Since you only get this off aroma/flavor on hoppy beers, are you using old hops? Could this off flavor/aroma be descibed as slightly cheesy? Have you used the same type of hops, like Citra, in the beers with the issue?
#2 Are you dry hopping? Has this process/timing changed since you started getting the off flavor?
#3 Have you had COVID? There are numerous discussion on here about how some people now have issues on just certain smells and aromas, not just a global change in lack of smell or taste.

Open all your hops and smell them. If you pick up a hint of what you think your getting in your beer and the hops are old, see #1 above and toss them. If the hops are not old and your picking up a hint of your issue, see #'s 2 or 3 above and redesign your recipe(s).

 

[bwible]

Feedback from competitions is hit or miss. Yeah if you get our clubs grand master level judge he may write you some useable feedback. If your flight is judged by the national level judge who barely got a 70 on the test working with a professional brewer “guest” judge then you might get comments that are less useful. I can’t tell you how many times I got something along the lines of “this beer is flawed, watch sanitation” or “this beer is infected, review sanitation”. Which is not helpful if you don’t know the problem and are looking for more feedback. Many competitions are just about the ribbons and eliminating the bad entries and not so much about providing useful feedback. Plus there’s an entry fee, shipping if the competition is not local, and some of them want 3 bottles now.

 

[Jackson Akson]

It is often easier to rule out what a problem is not versus identifying an exact cause. If temp control is reasonable, rule it out. If O2 control (pre-pitch & post pitch) is reasonable, rule it out. Same for ingredient freshness. If you assume batches are infected with outside yeast or bacteria, there is no real need to identify the exact culprit. They can all be killed the same way. Toss any salvage yeast. Clean EVERYTHING (starter flask, mason jars, hoses, fermenters, etc.) mechanically followed by a 12 hour soak in PBW, then boil everything that can be boiled. I've mixed up 30 gallons of water with a gallon each of bleach and vinegar sterilize things I couldn't boil (don't try on any plastic you want to remain clear). There is no need for moral or selective culling. Kill everything and start fresh. Then relax and have a homebrew.

 

[pvtpublic]

A couple of scoresheets are not going to tell you anything. Compiling many will give you a pattern of opinions to establish a consensus of what your beer tastes like to others. You're always going to get a judge that doesn't know his hotdog from his donut. You need to be smart enough to sniff them out and not take it personally.

 

[Menno]

It is often easier to rule out what a problem is not versus identifying an exact cause. If temp control is reasonable, rule it out. If O2 control (pre-pitch & post pitch) is reasonable, rule it out. Same for ingredient freshness. If you assume batches are infected with outside yeast or bacteria, there is no real need to identify the exact culprit. They can all be killed the same way. Toss any salvage yeast. Clean EVERYTHING (starter flask, mason jars, hoses, fermenters, etc.) mechanically followed by a 12 hour soak in PBW, then boil everything that can be boiled. I've mixed up 30 gallons of water with a gallon each of bleach and vinegar sterilize things I couldn't boil (don't try on any plastic you want to remain clear). There is no need for moral or selective culling. Kill everything and start fresh. Then relax and have a homebrew.

 

[Menno]

Thanks. Indeed I have been ruling things out. I’m still not sure it is an infection. But it is kind of the only thing that is left. Still wondering why the smell gets less over time.
Particular my west coast style ipa I have on tap now, which started with the strange smell but 2 weeks later it is much,much less.
But a more rigorous clean can never hurt, so will start with that on my next brew.

 

[Menno]

I'm not rebutting you, just find this model convoluted.
Mixing knowingly flawed beers into competitions dilutes (and skews) the judging flights, while the real issue of finding the exact flaw(s), possible causes, and suggesting remediations, may well be overlooked.

As a start getting feedback from other homebrewers, some of them may be beer judges or know how to judge beer, and possibly pro-brewers, will be faster and more efficient, IMO.

I think as suggested I need my beer tasted by some people who have a more educated palate particular around off flavors. As I wrote, I had that chance before I moved away from Vermont, where i was surrounded by knowledgeable home and pro brewers.
I will see if some of the breweries around eastern shore can give me some feedback.
I ruled out a lot of things, among which hop freshness. Most of my procedures have not changed ( except I’m better in avoiding oxidation) from the time I did make good IPAs.
One suggestion made on this forum is to just clean the hack out of EVERYTHING.
This assumes that it is an infection.
I just don’t get it that the smell gets less over time. And the beer is definitely not undrinkable.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Your original post says it is only in hoppy beers. This tells me it is unlikely a sanitation issue. Maybe you're sensitivity has changed to a specific hop, Citra, Amarillo, Galaxy, etc. Is there a common hop you are using?

Also anyone with a decent palate should be able to detect what you are smelling. You do not need to be a beer person. Keep trying with friends, neighbor, family.

 

[pvtpublic]

How old are the hops that you're using for your IPAs?

 

[wdavis2003]

Moved house and rebuild my entire kegerator with new taps and beer lines, cleaned the hell out of my kegs with PBW

Damn you even moved to a new house to try and fix the problem? That's taking homebrew to a new level!.. JK

I didn't see anything about where you purchase your ingredients from? Have you tried getting from another source? I know it's not EVERY beer but it could be an ingredient you use in every hoppy beer

 

[Menno]

Your original post says it is only in hoppy beers. This tells me it is unlikely a sanitation issue. Maybe you're sensitivity has changed to a specific hop, Citra, Amarillo, Galaxy, etc. Is there a common hop you are using?

Also anyone with a decent palate should be able to detect what you are smelling. You do not need to be a beer person. Keep trying with friends, neighbor, family.

Yes you are right. That is why I started ruling out other things first. My British ale just a month ago was maybe my best ever.
And the smell gets less over time. So that is why I’m also not convinced it is an infection.
My common hops for my ipa are various combination of citra Mosaic, el dorado, Amarillo and simcoe. I also used galaxy.
But why didn’t I have this smell 2 years ago???

 

[Menno]

Damn you even moved to a new house to try and fix the problem? That's taking homebrew to a new level!.. JK

I didn't see anything about where you purchase your ingredients from? Have you tried getting from another source? I know it's not EVERY beer but it could be an ingredient you use in every hoppy beer

Yes. The move was a bit excessive.
I mostly buy my ingredients from more beer. So reputable.
Personally I still think the issue is in my hops or fermentation.
I measure my FG with a tilt. I mostly hit FG target or 1 or 2 points above.
Use only dry yeast, sprinkle it on the wort.
One pack for a ABV of around 6-6.5.
Stressed yeast??

 

[IslandLizard]

The only thing I have not done is clean the Co2 lines……

If beer backed up into your gas system, and was never cleaned and dried, that can become an issue, of course. But you'd probably see that in the lines.

 

[IslandLizard]

Use only dry yeast, sprinkle it on the wort.
One pack for a ABV of around 6-6.5.
Stressed yeast??

Which yeast(s)?
Now, if you've always done that, with good results, then why would it suddenly change?

Personally I still think the issue is in my hops or fermentation.

Maybe it is the hops. Where did you get them from?

 

[Menno]

Which yeast(s)?
Now, if you've always done that, with good results, then why would it suddenly change?


Maybe it is the hops. Where did you get them from?

Mostly More Beer

 

[Menno]

If beer backed up into your gas system, and was never cleaned and dried, that can become an issue, of course. But you'd probably see that in the lines.

Yes. But it will clean them anyway. Can’t hurt.

 

[Menno]

Mostly More Beer

Different ones. Lallemand east coast , S04, Verdant.
But indeed I didn’t change anything in
My procedures. So why the change in smell ??

 

[mac_1103]

You could try getting one of these. Pretty pricey though. It's too bad there isn't a cheap scratch and sniff version for aromas.

 

[wdavis2003]

Yes. The move was a bit excessive.
I mostly buy my ingredients from more beer. So reputable.
Personally I still think the issue is in my hops or fermentation.
I measure my FG with a tilt. I mostly hit FG target or 1 or 2 points above.
Use only dry yeast, sprinkle it on the wort.
One pack for a ABV of around 6-6.5.
Stressed yeast??

Well I will tell you there was a time when I only ordered kits from Morebeer and I kept having a metallic off flavor in the end product. I switched to a different supplier and the off flavor was gone. I then ordered again from Morebeer and the off flavor returned. I did some research and the off flavor could be contributed to improperly stored grain.

I have since returned to buying kits from Morebeer when I don't feel like researching my own recipes and the off flavor is gone.

Try and get your ingredients from a different source for the next batch and see if the problem goes away.

 

[IslandLizard]

[Re: source of hops] Mostly More Beer

They have (or at least used to have) a commercial pro-brewer division for hop sales. I don't know about their hops sold to homebrewers, or how those are repackaged and stored.

There may be better sources for hops, IMO. For example:
Yakima Valley Hops
Hops Direct

How do you store your hops?
For how long, before they're used up?

 

[IslandLizard]

Yes. But it will clean them anyway. Can’t hurt.

Since your British beers don't have the off smells, it doesn't seem to point to your gas system. Or as you hinted to, their maltiness may cover it up more.

If you're cleaning them, which may not be needed, it's important that they are thoroughly dried on the inside, before reinstalling them.

Are you using EVA Barrier tubing for both gas and liquid? It's highly recommended.