Odd flavor I can't figure out.

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

DJL531

Soon to be exploring the US, one beer at a time
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jul 16, 2020
Messages
109
Reaction score
56
I used Ella hops and DME to make a pale ale about 2 months ago. Similar recipe I have used 3 or 4 times and this time I got a beer with a semi smoky taste.

I steeped some Victory malt for 20 min (7 oz), added the DME (4lbs) boiled for 30 min. Added 7oz of DME as a late edition and this produced 4 gallons in the fermenter. Used US-05. 2 weeks primary, 1 week secondary and it cleared up real nice. Has a gold color to it, darker than a Helle but not as bright. Use RO water. Made a second beer that day with the same water (a lager) and it is fantastic. So I don't think it is water.

Here's the flavor. The after taste reminds me of the Lebanese dish baba ganoush. Slight roasted and smoky. After 3 weeks in the bottle it has gotten better. At 10 days it was more prevalent. At 23 days (last night) it was better

Could it just be the hop? .5 oz added at 20 min, 1.5oz added at 5min. No scorching of the DME in the pot.
ABV cal is 5.5 and online calc says IBU is 25. I used a spider so I expect that IBU to be slightly lower.
 
I am not familiar with Ella hops (although I have a coworker with a daughter by that name - he would appreciate a beer with this variety). Were you using these hops in your previous stabs at this recipe? Were the hops whole or pellets (or other)? Did you by chance use any Victory malt in the lager you made the same day?

Edited to say: baba ganoush is fantastic (my grandma makes the definitive version IMHO), but it's probably not a flavor I would appreciate in a beer.
 
Smoke flavor can be a phenol produced by yeast (some kviek) or wild microbe. If it’s buttery it could also be VDK production.

was there Any over attenuation?
 
Just an aside in case you may not know:

Victory malt is not a crystal malt. It has more in common with a very dark Munich and as it has never been stewed in the husk, the starches have not been converted to sugars. While steeping it will provide some flavor and color as you have experienced, steeping it will also lead to poor extraction (which may not matter to your recipe) and the potential for starch haze. Doing a mini-mash by adding a little base malt to it while steeping will convert the starches and provide you with more flavor and reduce the chance of unfermentable starches being extracted. Just add a little base malt and do the steeping at 150-160f for 30-45 mins.
 
I am not familiar with Ella hops (although I have a coworker with a daughter by that name - he would appreciate a beer with this variety). Were you using these hops in your previous stabs at this recipe? Were the hops whole or pellets (or other)? Did you by chance use any Victory malt in the lager you made the same day?

Edited to say: baba ganoush is fantastic (my grandma makes the definitive version IMHO), but it's probably not a flavor I would appreciate in a beer.
Well, this was the first and only time I have used these hops. These are Australian and had an AA of 18.1%. Pellets from Yakima Hops. The other brew had no Victory in it. The other beers I made, from the same DME lot I purchased, were Galaxy in one and Saaz in another. I had a 3rd I did that varied slightly from this recipe, but none had this flavor.

Profile for hops reads: Pleasant floral aroma with soft spice.
 
Smoke flavor can be a phenol produced by yeast (some kviek) or wild microbe. If it’s buttery it could also be VDK production.

was there Any over attenuation?
Not buttery, at least on my taste buds. It has a crisp dry taste but the FG was right where the other 3 I made ended, 1.010 to 1.012 Maybe something snuck in there while cooling. I brew outside.
 
Just an aside in case you may not know:

Victory malt is not a crystal malt. It has more in common with a very dark Munich and as it has never been stewed in the husk, the starches have not been converted to sugars. While steeping it will provide some flavor and color as you have experienced, steeping it will also lead to poor extraction (which may not matter to your recipe) and the potential for starch haze. Doing a mini-mash by adding a little base malt to it while steeping will convert the starches and provide you with more flavor and reduce the chance of unfermentable starches being extracted. Just add a little base malt and do the steeping at 150-160f for 30-45 mins.
I appreciate that. I'll give that go on the next one I try. Right now I have 3 all grain brews lined up and may swap back to quick 3 gallon DME when the summer rolls around.
 
I've been using a lot of Ella since buying a pound on sale this Fall. I've never tasted a smoky or savory flavor from my brews. I've found Ella is like a slightly amped up noble. It's very floral to me when used late, but pretty subtle and noble using it in the boil.
 
long shot... were there any fires nearby? neighbors burning fireplace or pit? hops sitting out can absorb stuff like that.
 
I've been using a lot of Ella since buying a pound on sale this Fall. I've never tasted a smoky or savory flavor from my brews. I've found Ella is like a slightly amped up noble. It's very floral to me when used late, but pretty subtle and noble using it in the boil.

This is a pretty good description of Ella. I used it quite a bit a few years ago, mostly in lagers.

Phenolic flavours can be smoky in beer, which could come from yeast or water (chlorophenol).
 
long shot... were there any fires nearby? neighbors burning fireplace or pit? hops sitting out can absorb stuff like that.
Nope. It was windy that day and I had to set up my kettle under the stairwell at my condo. So far I've brewed all of my beer in basically the same spot. That Ella was brew #16 in 12 months, first time for that flavor. Can DME go stale? I suppose it could...Maybe a little DME did scorch at the late edition. The back to back brews with 1 kettle was an exercise in logistics that day, but this brew was in between mash water and sparge water heating.
 
I wonder if I let it sit a little longer and settle more if the off flavor will settle out. I just tried another (current pic) and it is way milder than the first ones I tired about 2 weeks ago. These were bottled on 11/22/2020.
 

Attachments

  • Ella beer.jpeg
    Ella beer.jpeg
    669.1 KB · Views: 4
Also, this thing was as hazy as a NEIPA in the primary. 2 weeks in the primary and it looked close to orange juice. The racking took nearly everything hazy out of it.
 
I've had us-05 throw a smoky flavor in an IPA when I forgot to plug my freezer into the temp controller and found the beer at 73F the morning after pitching. It was kind of like a fake smoke flavor, like super store summer sausage.
 
I had to lookup Ella hops as they are not known to me. From the Yakima website
" Ella™ Hop Profile
Previously named Stella, Ella™ is the little sister of the Australian superstar Galaxy™. Ella and Galaxy™ share the same mother, but Ella's father is a variety from Spalt, Germany. This parentage gives Ella a pleasant floral aroma that is backed by soft spice. These qualities work best in lagers and pilsners, but Ella can be incorporated into Pale Ales and IPA during dry-hopping. This will preserve some of the lighter oils that are more fruity and tropical like in Galaxy™. "

I see no problem with the hops.

Victory malt. Smokey? From BeerSmith "Toasted malt that add a 'Biscuit' or toasted flavor to English ales."
So, unless the maltster really messed up, I don't believe it's the Victory malt.

Sorry @brewdude88, but I have never had US-05 throw a smoky flavor.

Perhaps, the brew was simply "green"?

 
My guess is that the late DME addition actually did scorch a bit. Did you cut the heat when you added it, or was your burner still going?
|It doesn't take much for that stuff to burn, once it hit the bottom of the kettle.
 
My guess is that the late DME addition actually did scorch a bit. Did you cut the heat when you added it, or was your burner still going?
|It doesn't take much for that stuff to burn, once it hit the bottom of the kettle.

I agree about DME scorching, but I don't recall scorched DME tasting smoky, unless we're mixing our impressions of things.
 
Sorry @brewdude88, but I have never had US-05 throw a smoky flavor.

No need to be sorry, I'm glad the us-05 authority is here to explain that it has never caused a smoky flavor under certain conditions and to some people's taste buds...
 
No need to be sorry, I'm glad the us-05 authority is here to explain that it has never caused a smoky flavor under certain conditions and to some people's taste buds...

Only trying to help @brewdude88 with your 93 reaction score, never claimed I was a "us-05 authority" as asserted.

Good luck in your brewing...

I've brewed with US-05 since 1995, have remained within the fermentation temps and haven't had a smoky brew caused by US-05. If others exceed the recommended fermentation temps whom knows what outcome they will obtain? Is this being a "us-05 authority"?
 
Last edited:
Smoke is a phenol as others have said. You could easily describe yeast phenols caused by fermentation issues as smoke or like burning plastic to be more precise.

Chlorine in your brewing water, or if you are using a chlorine based sanitizer (bleach) is another likely cause.

Finally, almost all wild yeast is Phenolic off flavor (POF+). So an infection of wild yeast could also cause this issue and would probably not show up in a lager because of the lower fermentation temperature.

US-05 is not listed as POF+ but it's possible that it could throw a phenolic off flavor in the presence of ferulic acid and fermentation stress (speculation on my part)

This flavor could also be described as: Cloves, medicinal, or bandaids
 
I had to lookup Ella hops as they are not known to me. From the Yakima website
" Ella™ Hop Profile
Previously named Stella, Ella™ is the little sister of the Australian superstar Galaxy™. Ella and Galaxy™ share the same mother, but Ella's father is a variety from Spalt, Germany. This parentage gives Ella a pleasant floral aroma that is backed by soft spice. These qualities work best in lagers and pilsners, but Ella can be incorporated into Pale Ales and IPA during dry-hopping. This will preserve some of the lighter oils that are more fruity and tropical like in Galaxy™. "

I see no problem with the hops.

Victory malt. Smokey? From BeerSmith "Toasted malt that add a 'Biscuit' or toasted flavor to English ales."
So, unless the maltster really messed up, I don't believe it's the Victory malt.

Sorry @brewdude88, but I have never had US-05 throw a smoky flavor.

Perhaps, the brew was simply "green"?

I'm leaning towards just green.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top