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Nottingham Yeast

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jwhirry

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UPDATE 9-3-2009: I am adding this to my first post so those having issues with Nottingham Batch #1081140118V exp 1-2011 can spot this right away. I thank Lallemand and Keith Lemcke for this offer and customer service.

We have done some internal quality checks that have shown that a higher than normal percentage of Nottingham yeast in 11 gram sachet packs from batch #1081140118V (expiration date of Jan. 2011) exhibit slow fermentation characteristics. While this is not affecting the majority of packages from this batch, as a safeguard we would like to replace sachets of this batch of Nottingham with new inventory from a different batch. If you have any Nottingham yeast with this batch number, please return it by mail to:

Lallemand Inc.
Attn: Marie Coppet
6100 Royalmount
Montreal, QC, Canada
H4P 2R2

We will replace each sachet sent along with extra sachets to compensate you for postage costs. We apologize for any inconvenience and thank you for your support. Should you have any questions, please contact our Montreal order desk by e-mail at [email protected] .

Keith Lemcke
Danstar Yeast Sales
I would suggest for all homebrewers to record not only the yeast used but the batch# and exp date. This will help you and the community should an issue like this arise. Good record keeping and notes will also help you become a better brewer.

Original first post from 7-21-2009 follows:
I have read here that a few others seem to be having issues with Nottingham slow starting lately. Is this the case with the "New" Nottingham?

On the morning of the 4th of July I brewed an Irish Red from a Midwest Extract kit. I put the Muntuns yeast in the fridge and used an old Nottingham packet I found in there. I thought if it is not viable I will quickly know and I will pitch the Muntuns. After I cooled the wort to 70 F with my immersion chiller, I aerated, put in the fermenter (glass 6.5 gallon carboy) and pitched my rehydrated yeast. I put it into my newly built fermentarator and set it for 61. No need for me to worry at all, I pitched around 5 AM and by 10 AM I had signs of activity, I was gone the rest of the day but by the time I got home after fireworks that evening there was a nice healthy fermentation going a good krausen and that lovely glugging in the airlock. It is what I have come to expect from Nottingham every time I have used it.

This last Saturday July 18, I brewed 2 batches. I ordered Malt, Hops, 6 packets of Nottingham and a Barley Crusher Malt Mill. I have now put together a workable all grain system. So first time all grain, I used beersmith to design a Schwarzbier that I planned to brew as an ale, and for something different decided I would like to try the Graff. I made a few minor changes to the Graff recipe increasing the grain bill to a pound and using 0.25 lb of Crystal 40, 0.15 lb of Melanoidin, and 0.6 lb of Munich. I did not have any terrified wheat. I thought to try an ounce or 2 of flaked barley or oats but some thoughts are fleeting. I mashed according to the recipe listed on this site only increasing the water and during boil I added 2 lbs of Light DME. I cooled with the immersion chiller to 70 deg F, rehydrated the yeast same as I do every time, Mixed and aerated via sloshing 4 gallons of Cider at room temp triple checked to be sure it was only Vitamin C listed and no other preservatives. Pitched the yeast and put it into the Fermentarator set for 61 degrees. OG 1.060

On to the Schwarzbier I already had this started I can post the recipe if need be, but other than using a wide variety of specialty grains, I used about 6 lbs of Munich and about 3.5 of Pilsner (2 Row) for the base grains, the only thing other than ale yeast out of style was the addition of Seeds of Paradise. I unfortunately forgot to add them to the boil so I lightly cracked them with a mortar and pestle and tossed them into the fermenter. I chilled with immersion chiller same as before to 70 deg F, aerated, added to fermenter pitched rehydrated yeast and set into the fermentarator. OG 1.043 (a little low on efficiency I need to review my Mash procedures)

Sunday morning check temp 61 degrees open fermentarator no action in either vessel in fact I notice the pressure is lower inside the carboys than out as water leans in not worried at all just taking mental notes, I changed the ice, checked the fan operation, and turn it up a degree for luck. Came home that night and still no action, still has lower pressure inside both vessels. Now I am slightly concerned, 24 hrs with Nottingham and No Activity… I tell myself not to sweat it but that it would not hurt to pitch another packet. I rehydrate another packet and pitch 2/3rds into the Graff and 1/3 into the Schwarz. I turn the fermentarator up another degree.

Monday morning temp good, I open it up, still nothing about 36 hours in now and I cannot see any signs of a start to fermentation. I close it up and go to work. I stew about it all morning and barely get an ounce of work done. I go home at lunch to peek. The Schwarz looks as though it has built a little pressure, the Graff not as much. Is the yeast coming to life? Or has a 1 deg f change increased the volume of air inside the carboys that much… I am really beating myself up now. Last night Approaching 48 hours, and no signs of a change since earlier I pitch a packet of Muntuns to each no rehydrating just threw it in on top. I contemplated putting the fermentarator to the upper 60’s but set it to 64. This morning there were signs of yeast colonies forming all over the top of the Schwarz and what looked like a single large colony in one spot on top of the Graff. I am tempted to go home at lunch and peek.

PS. Irish Red was kegged that night. I am still setting up my Kegerator but the small bit I tried was good even if it was a bit green
 

Teacher

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New Notty has been starting slow for me, but it's been getting the job done. In fact, just last night I checked a barley wine and was shocked. In a 4 gallon batch that started at a combined OG of 1.095 (the fermentables were added in two stages), one packet of new Notty pulled it down to -- get this -- 1.012! I didn't believe it and checked it three times, bobbing the hydrometer up and down in the thief. I know that the thief isn't always the most accurate vessel to use for checking gravity and I'll recheck in the bottling bucket, but I kept coming up with 1.012. Go figure.
 
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jwhirry

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That makes me feel a bit better hearing that kind of success, with a slow start.

I more than peeked at lunch. The Schwarzbier looks like its going to take off soon. It was slowly bubling the airlock and a good layer of yeast across the top. I suspect a full krausen soon. The Graff had the Huge yeast colony on top and what looks like more forming. I decided to give it a good swirl and a bit of a slosh to break those up. Airlock bubbled a bit in response. So hopefully by tonight both are in full ferment mode.
 

BeezBrew

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This happened to me, i pitched a packet of hydrated notty yeast and didn't get clear fermentation until 36 hours later. In fact i almost pitched another packet of yeast since i've never waited this long for fermentation. I havn't looked, but did they decrease the cell number in each packet?
 
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there is no reason not to make a starter with Dry yeast..
other than it's a waste of time and DME :D

IMO there's no reason at all to make a starter with dry. There's more than enough yeast is a packet of dry to adequately pitch a 5-gallon batch.
 

Captain_Bigelow

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Same here - I actually posted my experience on EdWort's Pale Ale thread. I pitched one packet a few days ago and nothing. I then pitched another packet yesterday and now have a little activity. I think there must be a problem with the batches.
 

NE-Brewer

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I assume that I can tell the old from the new by the date on the package??

I plan to stock up soon.

What is the date on the new?

Thanks:mug:
 

Budzu

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My nottingham is from lot # 1081140118V, expires 1/2011.

I pitched a 1.054 wort @ 64 with it rehydrated and there is no visible activity right now, 48 hours later. There is finally some pressure building this evening however.

Pitched a starter of wlp 001 this morning into a 1.052 wort at 63F, and its already starting its krausen.

Weird, it used to be the other way around and notty would take off before 001.

Edit for specifics requested
: yeast was kept refrigerated, placed at room temperature for 1 hour, rehydrated for 20 minutes in 1 cup 85F water, then pitched into a 1.054 wort at 64F. I now have significant krausen activity exactly 3 days from pitching this batch. This technique previously showed krausen activity within 12 hours, and usually raised the wort temperature several degrees.
 

EdWort

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I have forwarded this thread to my contact at Danstar and asked him to come online to answer questions. Keep your fingers crossed.

Cheers,

Ed
 

KillerKellers

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I had a packet that expired 2011 as well.. Pitched at night on a Wednesday, and still no action on Friday. Stopped by my LHBS (What Ales Ya) and Chuck was shocked. Gave me a packet for free, which expired 2010. Pitched that, and by the time I got home from a night if drinking, it had an nice big Krausen.
 

McKBrew

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I didn't have any issues on a recent batch. 10G of 1.080 beer, but I did use 4 packets of Notty. The thing fermented out to 1.020 in 1 week.

I am not sure what the packet dates were, but I bought all within the last 6 months.
 
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jwhirry

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Well approaching 72 hours after initial pitch and I finally have a good healthy looking Krausen on the Schwarzbier and the Graff should be there shortly.
I have forwarded this thread to my contact at Danstar and asked him to come online to answer questions. Keep your fingers crossed.

Cheers,

Ed
Thanks Ed. Fingers are crossed for this and for these brews turning out as I have come to expect from Nottingham.

Dont know if you read my thread over here yet, but it seems that I may have been ahead of the curve. I am hearing more and more people with problems with nottingham.
Thanks Enderwig, I did not find your thread before. I searched for threads on Nottingham so I am surprised it didn’t show up. Still good to know, wondering if this will be confirmed to be a bad batch or ? Did you end up tossing yours? I have three packets left from my order… not sure if I am willing to try them, don’t want to toss either.

I assume that I can tell the old from the new by the date on the package??

I plan to stock up soon.

What is the date on the new?

Thanks:mug:
My nottingham is from lot # 1081140118V, expires 1/2011.

I pitched a 1.054 wort @ 64 with it rehydrated and there is no visible activity right now, 48 hours later. There is finally some pressure building this evening however.

Pitched a starter of wlp 001 this morning into a 1.052 wort at 63F, and its already starting its krausen.

Weird, it used to be the other way around and notty would take off before 001.
I tossed the 3 empty packages from the pitched yeast, long before I thought about a potential issue.
But I had bought 6 packs at the same time and I am fairly confident they would all be from the same batch. The 3 packs I have left are all Lot # 1081140118V, Exp 01-2011.

I did not have any terrified wheat.
I've heard it's quite hard to scare ;)

Sorry to hear folks are having issues with the new Notty, but it makes me glad I stocked up on the old recently.
Ah it’s not that hard. Just have to set the mood; dim lighting, eerie music, and a Great Big Combine threshing in from nowhere. :eek: Muhaha!!!
I typed up the post in Word rather quickly and it looks like it autocorrected torrified to terrified. I apologize, to all who made it thru reading that first post. Maybe I should go back and edit it but I don't think I will.
 

phidelt844

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I brewed on Monday, pitched about 6pm. No activity yet, as of Wednesday morning, 6am. So 36 hours with no dice. This is now 2 for 2 batches on Nottingham not taking off; every other yeast strain I use I have activity by the morning after brew day.

Last batch that took 2-3 days to start tasted less than appealing. The only thing that was different was the long lag time... Nottingham is really starting to frustrate me.

[edit] I have also noticed in the last two packets (I have now pitched twice in to my last batch, with zero activity) that as the yeast spreads across the surface of the wort (I pitch directly in to the wort), there are almost solid chunks of yeast. It almost looks, for lack of a better description, like phlem... a somewhat solid, viscous collection of yeast. I'm not sure what that is, but I haven't seen anything like it in any other strains, either.
 

klemcke

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EdWort contacted me regarding the posts about Nottingham lately (thanks Ed!). I am in the sales area of Danstar & Lalvin and I am also with Siebel Institute in Chicago. Looking over all the e-mails it is hard to get an idea as to the nature of the problems (lag time & under-attenuation) as there are seemingly many variations of recipes and brewing conditions, and it looks as though different lots/batches of yeast may be involved. At the same time, there seem to be a lot of reports that Nottingham is working well, so it is difficult to get a clear "trend" about this.

Ed had sent an e-mail to me a couple of weeks ago mentioning the Nottingham batch 1081140118V that was posted in the Homebrewtalk.com forum, and I had our Montreal lab check it out. We keep sachets of our yeast in reserve in case of reports that the yeast has problems. Tobias in our lab conducted 2 trials using 2 different sachets of that yeast batch and in both cases the yeast performed as it should. This doesn’t say there is no chance there is a problem in the yeast, but it is a very positive indicator that this batch is normal. As well, these sachets are in use in beer kits from a variety of different manufactures, and we are monitoring whether the kit producers/vendors are getting reports of problems.

Aside from the package, nothing has changed with Nottingham, and the package change came about because we needed to find a new company to package the yeast. The new company had different packaging equipment, so the package materials needed to be changed.

To help us in making sure we can find trends in our products that may indicate patterns of concern (in the products or in the way they are being used), we would appreciate the assistance of our homebrewing customers. If you are working with brew sheets or a computer program where you keep brewing records, please keep a record of the lot number & expiration date of the yeast strain used. Keep other parameters such as whether the yeast was rehydrated and, if refrigerated before use, whether the yeast was allowed to come to room temperature for a few hours prior to rehydration. One other area of importance is knowing where the yeast was purchased, as there could be storage or transportation issues that affect the yeast. If you can provide me with information like this, it would be of great assistance. My e-mail address is [email protected].

If you have any questions or concerns, please drop me a line, and thanks very much for using Danstar yeast.

Keith Lemcke
Danstar & Lalvin Yeast
 

McKBrew

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Keith.

Thank you for taking the time to sign up here and let us know that you all are listening. We appreciate it.
 

paintb22

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I actually just had the same experience with Notty. Last Wed, 15th, I brewed a blond and an IPA I used 05 in the blond and Notty in the IPA. Blond was bubbling the next morning and the Notty took 3 days before airlock activity started. The Notty actually reached FG a day before the 05. Both batches taste great. Both yeast packets where from the same LHBS, both spent 24hrs in my basement before pitching and both were pitched at the same time, and temp, neither were rehydrated. I'm making 2 batches again tomorrow and pitching onto the yeast cakes again. I don't expect to see any lag this time but if I do I'll post back.
 
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jwhirry

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Thank you Keith,

Lesson learned about record keeping, I do keep records of my batches but not as complete as I now know that I should; batch numbers, dates and times, temperatures, rigorous records at every step. I love brewing enough that strict record keeping should not be an issue. In hindsight I should have been keeping near as strict of records all along.

My issue will be these current two batches, and the three sachets I still have from the same order. I do not care to risk another $20 - $30+ a batch and the time waiting for the finished product on what has proved (to me) to be a group of underperformers (in traditional Nottingham sense of performance). I pitched the Muntons sachets at 48 hours because I felt by that time that if the Nottingham had not taken off it was severely crippled if not dead, unfortunately I now cannot gauge the final performance from the Nottingham and can only say that it did not perform in the first 48 hours or for that matter the first 72 hours as it would normally.
 
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jwhirry

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I am contemplating picking up some US-05 to make sure the job is done. Any comments?

I have read that if I make a starter with the US-05 and pitch it at high krausen it should work, or should I just do the normal rehydration procedure and pitch? I know that will utterly destroy any interpretation of what the Nottingham may have contributed here, but honestly I think that those results are fairly destroyed already and I am a bit more concerned about producing the intended product. If Muntons is the only yeast active in there, it sounds like I will be disappointed and that’s just from what I read on their website. Muntons | World Class Malt | Home

I have fermentation in both vessels currently.

With the wide range of results people are experiencing I am as confused as anybody else. I want to increase my chances of success. Think this will help or hinder?
 

SowegaBrews

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I am also at day 3 of fermentation without any signs of fermentation using Nottingham dry yeast. I reaallly hope I don't need to re-pitch since I will have to wait several more days to get more yeast (no LHBS).
 

carbon111

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I have read that if I make a starter with the US-05 and pitch it at high krausen it should work, or should I just do the normal rehydration procedure and pitch?
Starters aren't needed for dry yeast, just rehydrate and pitch.

FWIW, I've been using Nottingham exclusively over the last six batches and have had it take off very quickly each time. I'm not seeing the weird lag some of you are.
 

z987k

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I think that the reason you are getting slow starts is because none of you are using the yeast properly.

From http://www.danstaryeast.com/tds/nottingham.pdf
4. Usage
• When 100 g active dried yeast is used to inoculate 100 litres of wort, a yeast density of 5–10 million
cells per millilitre is achieved. Brewer may experiment with the pitching rate to achieve a desired beer
style or to suit processing conditions.
• Sprinkle the yeast on the surface of 10 times its weight of clean, sterilized (boiled) water at 30–35°C.
Do not use wort, or distilled or reverse osmosis water, as loss in viability will result. DO NOT STIR.
Leave undisturbed for 15 minutes, then stir to suspend yeast completely, and leave it for 5 more
minutes at 30–35°C. Then adjust temperature to that of the wort and inoculate without delay.
• Attemperate in steps at 5-minute intervals of 10°C to the temperature of the wort by mixing aliquots of
wort. Do not allow attemperation to be carried out by natural heat loss. This will take too long and
could result in loss of viability or vitality.
• Temperature shock, at greater than 10°C, will cause formation of petite mutants leading to long-term or
incomplete fermentation and possible formation of undesirable flavours.
• Nottingham British Ale yeast has been conditioned to survive rehydration. The yeast contains an
adequate reservoir of carbohydrates and unsaturated fatty acids to achieve active growth. It is
unnecessary to aerate wort.
Every dry yeast manufacture recommends letting the yeast come to room temp and re-hydrating in water around the temp of the wort to be pitched in. Most say specifically NOT to make a starter with dry yeast because they can use their nutrient reserves before pitching.
 

chefchris

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Nottingham British Ale yeast has been conditioned to survive rehydration. The yeast contains an
adequate reservoir of carbohydrates and unsaturated fatty acids to achieve active growth. It is
unnecessary to aerate wort.
Never heard that one before.
 

Droot

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My nottingham is from lot # 1081140118V, expires 1/2011.

I pitched a 1.054 wort @ 64 with it rehydrated and there is no visible activity right now, 48 hours later. There is finally some pressure building this evening however.

Pitched a starter of wlp 001 this morning into a 1.052 wort at 63F, and its already starting its krausen.

Weird, it used to be the other way around and notty would take off before 001.
I just bought 4 packs. It has the same lot# and date :(

David
 

MikeFlynn74

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Ive never had Notty take less than 2hrs to start showing signs or anything less than 4 to start a krausen.
 

EdWort

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I think that the reason you are getting slow starts is because none of you are using the yeast properly.

From http://www.danstaryeast.com/tds/nottingham.pdf
Perhaps, but I have NEVER had this problem before. I always pull the packet from the fridge, let warm up for a few hours, then pour directly on 75 degree wort late in the afternoon.

By morning it is ALWAYS going gang busters.

Something has changed with the yeast to get these numerous issues.
 

enderwig

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carbon111

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I always pull the packet from the fridge, let warm up for a few hours, then pour directly on 75 degree wort late in the afternoon.

By morning it is ALWAYS going gang busters.
My last few batches brewed with Notty worked exactly as you describe. These packets were all bought at the same time - I've still got a couple packs: Lot 1080360088V

I hope the veracity of this gets figured out soon (though I've personally not had issues). I use Nottingham a lot.
 

z987k

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Perhaps, but I have NEVER had this problem before. I always pull the packet from the fridge, let warm up for a few hours, then pour directly on 75 degree wort late in the afternoon.

By morning it is ALWAYS going gang busters.

Something has changed with the yeast to get these numerous issues.
I have had generally the same results doing the same thing you describe, but I don't think we have an epidemic here when some people's beers are not starting in 24 hours or even 48.

Someone make a starter(which I never recommend with dry).

IDK, seems like internet hist-aria to me. There are sooo many factors and not many are really posting much other than, mine to!

The Danstar rep replied and the beers are still fermenting and getting great attenuation from the people who did say so...... so idk rdwhahb?
Of the poll posted, 17 people seem to have a problem.
 
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jwhirry

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I did not add any more yeast to my batches at this point. My Schwarzbier went thru a pretty fast ferment and did not do much of anything the last few days. I tested it with the hydrometer - 1.022... BeerSmith estimated my final to be 1.012.

I was at this point rushed by the SWMBO, who made last minute dinner plans with friends, so I just pulled out a packet of US-05 let it sit the few moments I had and sprinkled it on top. This was last night about 7:30. No real activity yet this morning.

My Graff is still active though slow I may pull that to take a reading in a little bit.

I am at a loss at the moment as to what to do with this thing, other than to tell myself to relax.
 

EdWort

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My LHBS wants 7.95 for a packet of new Nottingham. US-05 it is for me if I want to use neutral dry yeast now.
Your LHBS is fricking crazy or does not want to sell Nottingham. That's more than what I pay for a vial of White Labs.
 

jspence1

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I just got 20 packages of notty from Ed at BMW with lot#1081140118V and an exp of 01-2011.

I just finished the last 10 that I got from Ed, Everyone was rolling within 12 hours.

I will try and update this thread with the results of the new yeast as soon as I start using it.

John
 

Beeropolis

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Your LHBS is fricking crazy or does not want to sell Nottingham. That's more than what I pay for a vial of White Labs.
Yep. They charge the same amout for Notty as they do for White Labs now. For 2 bucks apiece I just bought a couple of US-05. I love Notty yeast but certainly not at that price.
 

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