Nottingham for a stout? Sure thing.

[SteveHeff]

Hi everyone. This is my first post in about 5 years. I've been brewing on and off for about 15 years but I'm trying to get back into it a bit. Here's what I've been up to.

I brewed an oatmeal stout with an OG of 1.061. It was a 10 gallon batch. I keep 5 gallons and typically give 5 gallons to a friend of mine. It allows me to brew more without having to go through so much beer. When I picked up my ingredients from my brew shop, I purchased a smack pack of wyeast 1084 (packaged 9/2024) at $14.99 for one pack! My dude told me that his vendor increased prices on him and he had to pass it on to the customer. It sucks, but it's part of the hobby...but I will no longer buy wyeast due to cost at this point.

When I got home (2 days before brew day) I popped the bag and allowed it to sit at room temp for 14 hours. The next day, the pack was completely flat with no signs of activity. I popped it open to make sure I burst the internal pack, which it had. I debated tossing it in a flask and hitting it with yeast starter wort can. Instead I opted for Nottingham since I had 2 packs in the fridge from 1+ year ago. The yeast starter took off within a couple hours and I ended up using the 2 liter starter for the stout.

The beer ended up going from 1.061 down to 1.011 after 6 days. All the times I have used 1084, it usually stops stone cold at 1.014. That's always given me a good balance of malt and alcohol. It's currently priming in the kegs for another 2 weeks so I'll report back when I taste it.

Has anyone else used non-style yeasts for their stouts and how have they turned out? Thanks.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Nottingham is an English origin yeast, stout is an English origin ale.
I don't see what's so non style about it...
I use a mix of Mangrove Jacks m42 and domestic New England style ale yeast for just about everything. I brew 90% brittish ales but still, that covers everything from stout/porter to milds to bitter to strong ales.

 

[MaxStout]

I've brewed a few stouts using Notty, and they turned out fine and within what I consider British/Irish styles. Close enough, anyway.

That smack pack should've swelled up within an hour or two. If you don't want to pay $15 for a dubious smack pack of Wyeast, then pay $3-$4 for dry and see if you like it. Nottingham, S-04, Windsor, etc. Experiment and find one that works for you.

 

[Miraculix]

Notti is a typical stout yeast. I personally prefer s04 but Nottingham certainly makes a fine stout.

 

[SteveHeff]

I've brewed a few stouts using Notty, and they turned out fine and within what I consider British/Irish styles. Close enough, anyway.

That smack pack should've swelled up within an hour or two. If you don't want to pay $15 for a dubious smack pack of Wyeast, then pay $3-$4 for dry and see if you like it. Nottingham, S-04, Windsor, etc. Experiment and find one that works for you.

I was shocked to see how expensive the smack pack was. I already thought that $7.99 for a pack was a little pricey given the availability of dry yeast strains. It's been probably 3-4 years since I last brewed a stout so looking for a suitable yeast to replace 1084 is on my list. Thanks for the reply.

 

[SteveHeff]

Nottingham is an English origin yeast, stout is an English origin ale.
I don't see what's so non style about it...
I use a mix of Mangrove Jacks m42 and domestic New England style ale yeast for just about everything. I brew 90% brittish ales but still, that covers everything from stout/porter to milds to bitter to strong ales.

My biggest concern with the substitution was attenuation. I build yeast starters for all my batches which usually end up hitting the top of of attenuation for the given strain. But I do think that mixing yeasts may lead to better beer discoveries. I'm all for it.

 

[MaxStout]

I was shocked to see how expensive the smack pack was. I already thought that $7.99 for a pack was a little pricey given the availability of dry yeast strains. It's been probably 3-4 years since I last brewed a stout so looking for a suitable yeast to replace 1084 is on my list. Thanks for the reply.

Liquid yeast has basically doubled in price in the last 5 years or so. Dry yeast is getting more expensive, but still a fraction of the cost of liquid. Kept in the fridge, dry yeast will last years. And there are many more strains offered in dry now.

I stopped buying liquid during Covid, and later, since the last LHBS near me closed down, I've continued to use dry. I'm not a fan of ordering something that perishable by mail. I know that lots of people do it, but I'm just not comfortable with the idea. I have a stir plate and flasks I haven't used in years.

 

[Miraculix]

Liquid yeast has basically doubled in price in the last 5 years or so. Dry yeast is getting more expensive, but still a fraction of the cost of liquid. Kept in the fridge, dry yeast will last years. And there are many more strains offered in dry now.

I stopped buying liquid during Covid, and later, since the last LHBS near me closed down, I've continued to use dry. I'm not a fan of ordering something that perishable by mail. I know that lots of people do it, but I'm just not comfortable with the idea. I have a stir plate and flasks I haven't used in years.

If you want the best of both worlds, try making a starter with 1/3 of a dry yeast pack. That way the yeast wakes up to its full potential, multiplies and you get basically liquid yeast. Some yeasts behave better treated that way than pitched directly dry or just rehydrated, with some it does not seem to make that much of a difference. You will anyway skip a big portion of the lag phase this way, which is always good.

 

[MaxStout]

If you want the best of both worlds, try making a starter with 1/3 of a dry yeast pack. That way the yeast wakes up to its full potential, multiplies and you get basically liquid yeast. Some yeasts behave better treated that way than pitched directly dry or just rehydrated, with some it does not seem to make that much of a difference. You will anyway skip a big portion of the lag phase this way, which is always good.

I learned something new today.

I've always followed the conventional wisdom of "don't make starters with dry yeast." However, I might give that one a spin (pun intended). Especially if I ever use a partial pack for a small batch or repitching at bottling, I'll know what to do with the remainder.

 

[Miraculix]

I learned something new today.

I've always followed the conventional wisdom of "don't make starters with dry yeast." However, I might give that one a spin (pun intended). Especially if I ever use a partial pack for a small batch or repitching at bottling, I'll know what to do with the remainder.

In general, it seems like this technique enhances the given character of the yeast. Us05 for example gets even cleaner and a British strain can get more estery. It's a nice thing to do if one has the time. Also, one pack should last at least for three batches, so the dry yeast becomes even cheaper this way.

Some strains also seem to flocculate better when treated this way. I've done this a lot with diamond lager and this yeast just sticks to the bottom of the bottle now. Clear beer in two weeks.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I do something similair, 2 starters at ~1.3L and half a pack of yeast in each starter. I don't know if it completely regenerates all the cell but probably at least half of them since it makes the fermentation kick off in ~6hours after pitch and produces more character.

 

[Miraculix]

I do something similair, 2 starters at ~1.3L and half a pack of yeast in each starter. I don't know if it completely regenerates all the cell but probably at least half of them since it makes the fermentation kick off in ~6hours after pitch and produces more character.

I usually do one step 2l starter, og 1.04, no hops.

Your version certainly also does the job.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Yeah, I use a mix of 2 yeast as my "house strain" and do 2 separate starters to get the ratio I want. MJ m42 and Brewly's New England style yeast, the NE yeast has a lower cell count and don't propagate as much do the ratio is probably 1/3 NE 2/3 m42.

 

[TalonsUpPuckDown]

If you want the best of both worlds, try making a starter with 1/3 of a dry yeast pack.

I'm intrigued by this, but am wondering the mechanics behind measuring out 1/3 of a dry yeast pack. Do you eyeball it? Do you weigh it? Do you worry about infections?

 

[Miraculix]

I'm intrigued by this, but am wondering the mechanics behind measuring out 1/3 of a dry yeast pack. Do you eyeball it? Do you weigh it? Do you worry about infections?

I weigh the pack before removing the yeast and in between so that I end up with the amount in the starter that I need. I then squeeze out the air as good as I can and seal the pack with some adhesive tape. Then into the freezer it goes. The little moisture that got introduced through air cannot do damage there and nothing can start to grow below 0c.

 

[Willy]

I often use a blend of us-05 (1 PK) and Notty ( 1 PK). The logic is - best of both yeast worlds. Very similar and they play nicely together.

 

[faithie999]

I'm intrigued by this, but am wondering the mechanics behind measuring out 1/3 of a dry yeast pack. Do you eyeball it? Do you weigh it? Do you worry about infections?

i have a small 100 gram scale that i bought on amazon for a nominal amount. it has a tare function, so for measuring partial yeast packets i put a small container on the scale, tare it, then measure the number of grams of yeast i want to use and seal the open packet as miraculix described.

as to the price of Wyeast, i thought the OP's shop was gouging him. i haven't bought liquid yeast in a while. i just checked the website of my LHBS (also a large mail order house) and 1084 is 13.99. not sure how the liquid yeast mfrs are making out charging so much when nowadays there are so many great dry yeast choices.

 

[Ramjet]

I weigh the pack before removing the yeast and in between so that I end up with the amount in the starter that I need. I then squeeze out the air as good as I can and seal the pack with some adhesive tape. Then into the freezer it goes. The little moisture that got introduced through air cannot do damage there and nothing can start to grow below 0c.

Do you use a sanitized measuring spoon to scoop out the yeast. Also how far in advance do you make the starter. This sounds like a great idea, I'm looking forward to giving it a try. Maybe you can describe your process in more detail. Thanks in advance

 

[MaxStout]

The times I've used a partial pack I just set it on a gram scale, tare the scale, then pour it a little at a time into the vessel. Re-weigh the packet until the scale shows negative whatever grams I wanted to pitch. No need to scoop--just one more thing to possibly introduce contaminants.

 

[Miraculix]

Do you use a sanitized measuring spoon to scoop out the yeast. Also how far in advance do you make the starter. This sounds like a great idea, I'm looking forward to giving it a try. Maybe you can describe your process in more detail. Thanks in advance

Open the pack, put it on a scale. Tilt it so that yeast falls into the starter. Weigh it again. Repeat till desired amount of yeast is in the starter. Squeeze out air. Seal with tape. Put the sealed pack in the freezer.

 

[Ramjet]

Great thank you. Do you make your starter a couple days before brew day?

 

[Shenanigans]

I weigh the 5 grams into a small clean plastic container by slowly pouring it directly from the pack. +/- 0.1 of a gram doesnt really make a difference but if you are careful you shouldn't over or undershoot by much.
Then just throw it into the starter wort.
You could santize the weighing vessle with some alcohol and let it dry, if you feel more comfortable with that.
I haven't had any issues with something that recently came from the dishwasher.

I also have really small vaccum bags and a sealer so I just fold the pack with the reamining yeast and seal them in the bag and then freeze.

 

[Miraculix]

Great thank you. Do you make your starter a couple days before brew day?

If I have enough time, I give the starter two days on the stir plate and one in the fridge to cold crash. One or two more days are also fine.

 

[Ramjet]

Thanks for all the replies

 

[hottpeper13]

After making a starter with dry yeast it's no longer pitched as dry. You now have liquid yeast and adding O2 after pitching is highly recommended.

 

[Miraculix]

After making a starter with dry yeast it's no longer pitched as dry. You now have liquid yeast and adding O2 after pitching is highly recommended.

Depends on the cell count. If it's high enough, no additional O2 required. I never used additional O2 except what is solved during transfer naturally.

 

[Steveruch]

Nottingham in a stout?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I also have really small vaccum bags and a sealer so I just fold the pack with the reamining yeast and seal them in the bag and then freeze.

... and Lallemand product information recommends vacuum sealing open sachets and bricks. - it looks like the approach is to keep the yeast cool, dry, and away from oxygen.

My normal approach for partial sachets is to close it tightly, secure it with a rubber band, toss it in the fridge - and plan to use the remaining sachet within a couple of months. Over almost a decade of doing this with a variety of Fermentis and Lallemand strains, I've never had a open sachet fail to start. There does, however, appear to be a "best by" date for my approach (perhaps a year?) - see "Does dry yeast ever expire really? (Brewers Friend forums)".

 

[crazyjake19]

Nottingham is appropriate for a stout. I brewed two stouts last weekend and planned on S04 for both of the (split pack, small batches), but the S04 was slightly out of date. It fermented just fine, but the only yeast I had on hand as a backup was Notty, which I typically only use for my ciders.

 

[worlddivides]

Use Nottingham for a stout? Hah! Next thing you'll be saying you'd use US-05 for an American IPA!

 

[day_trippr]

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I often use Verdant IPA in dark beers now. Stout, porter, brown ale. By often I mean two or three times a year. It's called IPA yeast but it's an English yeast, 1318 that's been used in a brewery with US hops for a while, and I find it makes dark beers I really like. I don't make IPAs. I make mostly English styles, and I'm not using this yeast for pale English beers as it brings an out of style, stone fruit flavour, to my taste buds. In dark beers that seems to get lost, and it brings a lovely smooth texture and possibly a hint of vanilla. I've made enough good dark beers with Verdant to recommend giving it a go.

 

[CodyRonan]

I often use Verdant IPA in dark beers now. Stout, porter, brown ale. By often I mean two or three times a year. It's called IPA yeast but it's an English yeast, 1318 that's been used in a brewery with US hops for a while, and I find it makes dark beers I really like. I don't make IPAs. I make mostly English styles, and I'm not using this yeast for pale English beers as it brings an out of style, stone fruit flavour, to my taste buds. In dark beers that seems to get lost, and it brings a lovely smooth texture and possibly a hint of vanilla. I've made enough good dark beers with Verdant to recommend giving it a go.

Even with say an Irish dry stout grain bill?

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Even with say an Irish dry stout grain bill?

I've not used it with a Guinness dry stout recipe but I do similar grain bills with some crystal malt and maybe some chocolate malt, and it's worked well. I don't think I'd do the Guinness recipe without nitro tbh. You're better off with some more grain complexity from my experience.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

TBH I think the Forged Brewery in Dublin make a much better Irish Stout than Guinness now. Guinness used to be better but I dunno if they changed recipes or something some years ago, it's just not the same anymore.

 

[SteveHeff]

Thanks for all the responses. I started pouring off of the keg 5 days ago. It will make a suitable stout for the next couple of months.