Not sure where to post this so here looks good

[LostBavarianMan]

I am a member of a private club. We are thinking of creating a brewers guild in the club. However here is the problem. With 400 members all of whom drink beer we want to brew enough beer to sell to the members but only to recoup the money for the next brew session. Im sure you guessed this is a German club.
What are the legalities involved in this does anybody have an idea or maybe know of a source to research this?
Please any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[FensterBos]

So, this "private club" of 400 members is like a social club (i.e. fraternity, Elks); but within this club you want to start a sub-club that will be specifically for brewing, but will charge the general club for beer?
Too be honest, and I don't know if this is legal, I would just brew the beer and call any money that is paid for said beer as "donations". Is this beer going to be consumed outside of the private quarters?

 

[LostBavarianMan]

The beer is only going to be consumed on the club property.
I was thinking about the donation aspect of it. Again we are talking 50 to 75 gallon batches. I was also thinking that we have a spare building on the compound that could be converted to a brew house. And doing a donation party to get the money together for the equipment. Its still in the works. But the first thing is to show that it can be done legally. So the donation aspect would keep Uncle Sam off our buts?

 

[509inc]

You should keep your Private club's business private. Then you have no worries. Loose lips sink ships.

 

[LostBavarianMan]

In order to make this happen I have to prove that it would be legal.
So I figure this would be a good place to ask about this.

 

[509inc]

Im not a lawyer but I do play one on TV.

I assume you would have the same legal requirements as a brewpub.

I can guarantee uncle sam will not let you sell beer without the proper licensing. They will want to tax you as well.

 

[Yooper]

In order to make this happen I have to prove that it would be legal.
So I figure this would be a good place to ask about this.

It's not legal. Homebrewing is legal in most states (not all), but there are special rules. First, it must be brewed in the home for private consumption. Each household is limited to 100 gallons per year of beer,wine,mead, cider, per adult, up to 200 gallons per household. Selling it is illegal, as is taking "donations" or bartering for it.

 

[LostBavarianMan]

The club does have a full License to sell what ever. Beer or spirits.
Hmmm wonder if that is all we need.

 

[Golddiggie]

You might need to get a nano-brewery license in order for it to be 100% legal... Otherwise, I don't think you'll be able to brew enough legally... I also think that if no one is living at that location, you won't be able to do it. It's supposed to be done in a home after all (for home brew)... You might be able to get away with it if you do all the cooking/processing there, but then members take the chilled wort home, before pitching the yeast in. Once the yeast is in, fermentation is considered to be started, and that's where the legal issues could crop up. You could get the fermenters for the members, have them pay for them (to help the costs) and then have them pay for the chilled wort (and yeast) to take home. Have them bring it back to your location, or teach them how to prime and bottle the brew so that they can do it at home.

If the members don't want to go through all that, then you'll want the license. Not sure about the costs there, but you could find out and include that in your donation drive amount... You could, also, split up the cost to keep the license current over the membership base, making it easier on everyone for the future. Then it's just a matter of deciding how much to get for each bottle you brew. That's probably going to the the method with the least amount of headaches for everyone. Plus, you won't need to worry about legal issues. You will need to get the brew location inspected, for the license aspect...

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

Im not a lawyer but I do play one on TV.

I assume you would have the same legal requirements as a brewpub.

I can guarantee uncle sam will not let you sell beer without the proper licensing. They will want to tax you as well.

This is true. If you could sell to your private club without going through the same red tape as any other brewery there'd be a lot more brewpubs out there that required "membership" to buy their beer on premise.

 

[LostBavarianMan]

Thanks Yopper
Ok so then to do what we had in mind we would need to get license to become a brewery if I understand correctly.

 

[FensterBos]

So, you are looking at 2 bbl batches...that is going to need commercial equipment and that will definitely get you noticed by your local alcohol commission/association. I assume that your private organization is non-profit, so I am sure there is some sort of loophole, but you'll need legal representation.

 

[beerkrump]

AFAIK, you are either a home brewer or a professional, licensed, legal brewery.

Maybe, if you brew 200 gallons at house A, 200 gallons at house B, 200 gallons at house C, etc., and have each member of your "club" purchase the ingredients for their batches. Even with the musical brewery, you are flaunting it.

Sorry, but it just doesn't smell right and is most likely trouble.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks Yopper
Ok so then to do what we had in mind we would need to get license to become a brewery if I understand correctly.

Correct- homebrewing is different.

Here's the specific law in Florida:

Statute
Florida state statute 562.165 represents one of the most comprehensive provisions allowing for the production of beer or wine in the home for personal or family use. The statute was last amended in 1983.

Discussion
Florida statute 563.01 defines "beer" and "malt beverage" as all brewed beverages that contain malt. Statute 562.165 provides that an individual, who is not prohibited by section 562.111 (possession of alcoholic beverages by persons under age 21 prohibited), may produce beer for personal or family use, and not for sale in the following amounts:

(a) Not in excess of 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two persons over the age of 21 in the household.

(b) Not in excess of 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one person over the age of 21 in the household.

Any personal or family production of beer in excess of the above amounts or any sale of such alcoholic beverage constitutes a violation of the beverage law.

Special Provisions
Beer made under the provisions of this statute maybe removed from the home for personal or family use, including use at organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions, such as home brew contests, tastings, or judging. Beer used for this purpose shall not be sold or offered for sale.

State Alcohol Beverage Control Agency
Bureau of Licensing and Records Division of Alcohol, Beverages and Tobacco

1940 North Monroe Street
Tallahassee, FL 32399-1021
Phone: 904.488.8288
Fax: 904.488.9264

Applicable Statutory Material
562.165 Production of beer or wine for personal or family use; exemption.--

(1) Notwithstanding any provisions to the contrary, a person who is not prohibited by s. 562.111 from possessing alcoholic beverages may produce beer for personal or family use, and not for sale, in the amounts provided in this section without payment of taxes or fees or without a license. The aggregate amount of such beer permitted to be produced with respect to any household shall be as follows:

(a) Not in excess of 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more such persons in such household.

(b) Not in excess of 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one such person in such household.

(2) Notwithstanding any provisions to the contrary, a person who is not prohibited by s. 562.111 from possessing alcoholic beverages may produce wine for personal or family use, and not for sale, in the amounts provided in this section without payment of taxes or fees or without a license. The aggregate amount of such wine permitted to be produced with respect to any household shall be as follows:

(a) Not in excess of 200 gallons per calendar year if there are two or more such persons in such household.

(b) Not in excess of 100 gallons per calendar year if there is only one such person in such household.

(3) Any personal or family production of beer or wine in excess of the amount permitted in this section or any sale of such alcoholic beverages constitutes a violation of the Beverage Law.

(4) Wine and beer made under the provisions of this section may be removed from the premises where made for personal or family use, including use at organized affairs, exhibitions, or competitions, such as homemakers' contests, tastings, or judgings. Wine or beer used under this subsection shall not be sold or offered for sale.

 

[LostBavarianMan]

Ok so then it seems that I need to research about getting a permit to make the amount of beer we are talking about and being able to "sell" to the members. OK thanks again Yoppers.
I knew this was the place to start.

 

[lou2row]

If you have 400 members and they all drink, you can probably recoup the costs of licensing pretty easily.

 

[Chris1272]

I would just go about getting a licence maybe look into what it would take to start a tap room. The only way I would even consider circumventing this would be to take up money prior to brewing and use it to buy grains and yeast then give away the beer.

 

[RogerMcAllen]

It just might be legal if you check your local laws. I was once scouting biotech companies and came across this video gem where a biotech company was able to christen their new fermenter with a batch of beer by designating two of their employees as official brewmasters under the California homebrew exemption:
http://www.amyrisbiotech.com/
(there is no good way to link to it but follow the link, click timeline on the left side, hover over the box on the timeline above October 2008, click more, click the arrow to get to the 2nd part with the video)

 

[509inc]

Found this on TTB.gov under FAQs.

: If TTB must approve my operations to make beer, how do I apply?
Here's what to do to apply:
Prepare and send TTB Form 5130.10, Brewer's Notice and other forms, including TTB Form 5130.22, Brewer's Bond.
To request a packet with all required forms and instructions:
TTB National Revenue Center
8002 Federal Office Building
550 Main Street
Cincinnati, OH 45202-3263
(513) 684-2238
Toll Free: 800-398-2282
Fax: 513-684-2241
E-mail to: [email protected]

 

[TTB-J]

Not to be a buzz kill or anything, but if you are asking for legal advice you need to go to a lawyer that is licensed in the jurisdiction that you are seeking information on - this forum is not "a good place to ask about this." Giving legal advice when you are not a licensed attorney is engaging in the unauthorized practice of law, which is a third degree felony in Florida.

 

[LostBavarianMan]

I am going to get with the Florida department of Alcohol and see what they have to say. Thanks for all the great replies. BUt that way I get the proper answers and then I can go to the club board and present my case. Thanks again.

 

[l1ranger]

You should keep your Private club's business private. Then you have no worries. Loose lips sink ships.

good luck keeping 400 people quiet.

 

[LostBavarianMan]

not just 400 people
400 Germans LOL

 

[Homercidal]

Don't forget that there is another forum out there for pro brewers, or start-ups that may be of more help once you get the ball rolling. I think having 400 members all pitching in is going to get you a long ways towards getting the minimum license required to brew on site.

 

[Revvy]

Really good to see that you took the news that it's not easy and you have to go through proper channels so well. You would not believe the number of threads where, when the person finds out that it's not legal to sell homebrew/you have to get permits, etc and go legit, get really mad at us, for simply stating the laws.

It's all about distribution and taxation, and health laws, like any business. My BIL is the past commodore of a private boat club, and even just getting the alcohol into the establishment has to go through proper channels. Just because it's a private club doesn't mean for example, if they run out of budweiser or rum, they can just run down to the local liquor store and legally restock the bar.

It's really refreshing to see that you're so receptive to "doing it right" and even listening to us. We're not lawyers but most of us know a little bit about these laws, especially those of us aware of the historically precarious nature of alcohol laws. A lot of folks come on thinking they can sell their beer at the local farmer's market or something (which I find amusing that they think they have an original idea, but if it were easy to do it, there'd already be 10,000 other homebrewers selling at the market already) and get really nasty when they hear they can't.

Good luck with this, keep us posted.

 

[Bobby_M]

Not to be a buzz kill or anything, but if you are asking for legal advice you need to go to a lawyer that is licensed in the jurisdiction that you are seeking information on - this forum is not "a good place to ask about this." Giving legal advice when you are not a licensed attorney is engaging in the unauthorized practice of law, which is a third degree felony in Florida.

The overwhelming response was that it probably isn't legal and that he should talk to the TTB so this was a good place to start. It's just a horrible place to stop.

 

[l1ranger]

not just 400 people
400 Germans LOL

oh noes.
and being florida, they are old retired germans

good luck with figuring it out.

 

[TTB-J]

The overwhelming response was that it probably isn't legal and that he should talk to the TTB so this was a good place to start. It's just a horrible place to stop.

Saying "that probably isn't legal" could be construed as legal advice. In several jurisdictions, the presence of an attorney-client relationship turns on the reasonable belief of the putative client. If someone here said that and was wrong, the OP missed out on a great opportunity, and the OP turned around and sued them, what would the responder's defense be? If someone asks you to interpret the legality of something and you choose to do so, despite the fact that you are not duly licensed to practice law, you could be putting yourself at risk of committing a crime or subjecting yourself to liability. My message was as much for the people responding as it was for the OP. Of course, I'm not saying that what anyone said here rises to that level, I'm just saying that, as a rule of thumb, if someone asks you "hey, do you think it's legal to do X?" then your response, if you are not a lawyer that is licensed in the jurisdiction and knowledgable on that subject of law, should be some variation of "I don't know."

 

[LostBavarianMan]

TTB-J
I have not taken any advise here as proper legal advise.
Revvy
I may not have been a member here for to long but I am not about to take the advise givin in a wrong manner again that is why I started here. And yes I will keep everyone posted. Never know there may be a new florida brewery popping up soon.
Thanks all.

 

[Ediec]

If you already have a beer and wine license from the state, its only another $500 per year to brew on site. Here's some of the statutes along with basic descriptions. http://www.floridabrewersguild.org

 

[Toasted678]

not just 400 people
400 Germans LOL

This made me laugh.

Yea looks like the CMBP is the way to go for your case. I was just looking into this stuff myself. I'm interested to hear what the state comes back at you with, keep us posted!

Ediec - I see your in Jupiter, me too! I was just at the Tequesta Brewing Co. last night and I got a growler of their Big Hitter, a Black IPA, and holy cow it is amazing! You should definitely try it!

 

[LostBavarianMan]

Ediec
YES that is what I was looking for. We do have a full spirit license from the state. And the sales would not be for off property sales or distribution only for the club house and possibly for our annual Oktober Fest. Thank you very much I am waiting for a return call for the State Alcohol Board and I can find everything else out from there thank you so much.