New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[jordanfrenzy]

Help me understand this. What is the purpose of reducing O2 in the mash if yeast are gonna need it later?

This is a very controversial topic in homebrewing right now. I think a lot of people do what I and Dgallo describe - avoid unnecessary oxidation on the hot side. If you want to follow the total LoDo process from start to finish it is a labor and equipment intensive process. I pre-treat my water (you can do this by boiling it to drive off oxygen or use yeast and sugar to let the yeast scavenge the oxygen available in your mash and sparge water. I also avoid any kind of splashing or agitation during mash or sparge. I also switched to adding my grain to my mash tun and underletting my mash water to avoid agitation during the mash.

I like the results, but it could be all in my head. It's been helpful for delicate beers like lager, but it's kind of just my process for all beers now. Like most things in homebrew, I took away the bits and pieces that seemed doable without adding hours and headaches to my brew day, but I didn't incorporate all of the things LoDo purists recommend.

 

[beervoid]

This is a very controversial topic in homebrewing right now. I think a lot of people do what I and Dgallo describe - avoid unnecessary oxidation on the hot side. If you want to follow the total LoDo process from start to finish it is a labor and equipment intensive process. I pre-treat my water (you can do this by boiling it to drive off oxygen or use yeast and sugar to let the yeast scavenge the oxygen available in your mash and sparge water. I also avoid any kind of splashing or agitation during mash or sparge. I also switched to adding my grain to my mash tun and underletting my mash water to avoid agitation during the mash.

I like the results, but it could be all in my head. It's been helpful for delicate beers like lager, but it's kind of just my process for all beers now. Like most things in homebrew, I took away the bits and pieces that seemed doable without adding hours and headaches to my brew day, but I didn't incorporate all of the things LoDo purists recommend.

A Belgium brewer once told most oxygen goes out already by just heating the mash water.
Never looked into the science of this

 

[jordanfrenzy]

A Belgium brewer once told most oxygen goes out already by just heating the mash water.
Never looked into the science of this

There was a famous PDF from German brewers describing the entire LoDo process from grain to glass that came out a few years ago. It is intense and a lot of it hard to do on the homebrew scale. It launched about a million arguments. I can't speak to the science either way but some of it certainly makes some sense.

 

[DrGMG]

Doesn't oxidation take days to weeks? I know that if you leave a hazy beer on a counter, open, it'll oxidize by the next day, but that's due to hops, not grains. I would imagine the mash taking a lot longer to oxidize than a hoppy beer.

 

[Dgallo]

Doesn't oxidation take days to weeks? I know that if you leave a hazy beer on a counter, open, it'll oxidize by the next day, but that's due to hops, not grains. I would imagine the mash taking a lot longer to oxidize than a hoppy beer.

The temperature of the mash is a catalyst and greatly increases the speed of the reaction. Your also recirculating in some capacity during the mash/sparge causing splashing allowing increased oxygen to dissolve

Again, I do not take a full LODO approach but I do avoid any unnecessary o2 ingest, especially with lagers and delicate ales

 

[palmtrees]

I started doing the yeast scavenging method last year after watching some YouTube videos about it. I prep my mash water the night before and drop in some bread yeast and sugar, which theoretically scavenge all the oxygen in the water. Then I heat and mash in when I wake up, and I try to avoid any splashing until the wort has cooled and goes into the fermenter. I can't say I have noticed a ton of difference, but I was also implementing a lot of methods to avoid oxidation simultaneously, so it's hard to tease things out. It adds about thirty seconds to my brewing process, so I figure it's worth it and certainly isn't hurting anything.

 

[Redhouse Brewing]

Doesn’t campden tablets do the same thing as yeast/sugar? I treat my water with campden the night before to rid chlorine and/or chloramine and get the added benefit of eliminating oxygen - so I’ve read.

 

[InspectorJon]

I want to say LODO is a false religion...

But the LODO folks are likely to start an unfriendly debate and we are not suppose to talk about religion so let's pretend I did not say that.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Doesn’t campden tablets do the same thing as yeast/sugar? I treat my water with campden the night before to rid chlorine and/or chloramine and get the added benefit of eliminating oxygen - so I’ve read.

Probably not the thread to debate full LODO brewing...but I have seen plenty of anecdotal evidence of adding ascorbic acid to the mash extending the shelf life of beers like Hazy IPAs. I question a little if this is true and wonder how it might work. It does make me wonder if adding campden/metabisulfite into the mash has a similar impact. If so, at what dose? For a 5 gallon batch with ~8 gallons of water, I will use between 1 and 0.5 tablet.

Using ascorbic acid and metabisulfite, potentially in the mash, when dry hopping and/or when packaging, is something I want to play around with. Though with my process, I don't notice any oxidation issues in my hazies. The one batch I did try adding ascorbic acid into the mash and when dry hopping, the batch had issues that are likely not related to the use of ascorbic acid. It was enough for me to not try using ascorbic acid for the next few batches, just to eliminate that as a variable.

For those not aware, there is a forum (not very active) with some good threads addressing LODO topics: Low Oxygen Brewing

 

[ihavenonickname]

The other helpful and practical resource on LODO is “the m0dern brewh0use” website for those who aren't familiar. Similar to others I take some measured precautions to reduce oxidation... because it might help, but I don't at all think I couldn't skip all these steps and still make the best beer possible.

I often add k meta 0.2 grams to mash water which certainly reduces DO - I was convinced of this actually doing something when I saw this guy use a DO meter, take measurements and watched the DO go down. This also convinced me to add a little k meta when I dry hop. Im my mind these things are just cheap easy insurance in case I screw up my process. My most recent hazy I also added Ascorbic Acid to the mash because who likes brown apples or guacamole! Its often added to hose packaged foods so why not give it a shot.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

This article on thiols from malts may be of interest if anyone has a subscription (or can be bothered to subscribe and then cancel within 30 days... )

What Malt Can Do for Your Thiols

It’s long been known that malt contains precursor compounds that can be unlocked via fermentation for bright, tropical-fruit aromas. Researchers are beginning to quantify those contributions, and brewers are putting them to work in the brewhouse.

brewingindustryguide.com

 

[wepeeler]

I know I'm late to the party - I've never used Cascade hops! SO, I brewed up a simple Cascade Pale Ale based off @Dgallo recipe American IPA - Base Pale Ale Recipe for Single hop Beers That should be ready in about 2 weeks. Smelled absolutely wonderful in the kettle.

I got the itch to incorporate Cascade into a NEIPA late Saturday night, so I slapped together a grist - 2 Row, Pilsner, White Wheat, Flaked Wheat. Citra Simcoe Cascade 1:1:1. 40 IBU. Brewed this Sunday morning. Might have been the best smelling kettle ever. Pitched Coastal Haze and set to 68F, and it's ripping right now. Basement smells wonderful! Orange and grapefruit peels!

 

[Langerz]

Whew...as a new brewer I have to say probably my greatest accomplishment as a brewer so far was making it through this whole thread I've had a few batches of west coast IPAs I've been happy with but have been waiting to tackle an NEIPA. Thanks to everyone in this thread I think I have really good background. I'm not sure my process/equipment is quite up to where I need it to be but I am a big NEIPA fan and the itch to brew one is getting too strong. I just finished another brew this weekend and have one more planned before the NEIPA, but want to start getting things on order to do this in a few weeks. I think I gleaned enough from the thread to put together a good recipe/plan, but thought I would post it here for a double check.

I'm going to shoot for a 6.5 gal batch with only 5-5.5 in the fermenter. Past batches I've got a lot of trub in the fermenter and hoping the bigger batch keeps me from being tempted to try to get every possible ounce out of my kettle.

Grains:
70% 2 Row Pale Malt
13.3% Oat Malt
13.3% Wheat Malt
3.3% Honey Malt

Total grain ~21.3 lbs. Calculator says OG 1.080 and SRM of 6.1.

Hops:
Commercial versions I love strata/I7/citra combos so
1 oz magnum in boil (25.5 IBU)
2 ounces of both strata and Idaho#7 in whirlpool
3 ounces citra, 3 ounces strata and 1.5 ounces of Idaho#7 in dry hop

Water:
Start with RO and target Ca 100, Mg 9, Na 83, Cl 225, SO4 130

I'm going to try a step mash the best I can (not easy with setup)
~146 for 40 min
~159 for 40 min
~170 for 10 min
If that fails I'll probably just shoot for 156-158 for an hour

Yeast - my intent is to follow the post that said mix one package or Verdant and one of NE. One question here there was quite a bit of discussion of under pitching - in that case should I do something like a half pack of each?

I don't have good fermentation temp control yet (next on my list but probably not in time for this one) but read a bit about poor man's methods and going to try to at least do as close to...
Ferment in mid 60s and letting it rise to mid 70s and move to warmer area for end
Soft crash the best I can for 2 days
Dry hop "cooler"
Cold crash the best I can for a day

I am not set up for kegging yet and I'm sure I'm going to be told I'm going to have oxidation problems. I also know that is likely the case, but still need to give it a try. I did read up as much as I can from the few that claim they can bottle this successfully. Planning to bottle direct from fermenter, use tabs to carb, limited headspace, purge headspace and then cap immediately. I've done some heavily hopped WC IPAs that was with success.

Any feedback is welcome and thanks again for all the insights in this thread.

 

[wepeeler]

Whew...as a new brewer I have to say probably my greatest accomplishment as a brewer so far was making it through this whole thread I've had a few batches of west coast IPAs I've been happy with but have been waiting to tackle an NEIPA. Thanks to everyone in this thread I think I have really good background. I'm not sure my process/equipment is quite up to where I need it to be but I am a big NEIPA fan and the itch to brew one is getting too strong. I just finished another brew this weekend and have one more planned before the NEIPA, but want to start getting things on order to do this in a few weeks. I think I gleaned enough from the thread to put together a good recipe/plan, but thought I would post it here for a double check.

I'm going to shoot for a 6.5 gal batch with only 5-5.5 in the fermenter. Past batches I've got a lot of trub in the fermenter and hoping the bigger batch keeps me from being tempted to try to get every possible ounce out of my kettle.

Grains:
70% 2 Row Pale Malt
13.3% Oat Malt
13.3% Wheat Malt
3.3% Honey Malt

Total grain ~21.3 lbs. Calculator says OG 1.080 and SRM of 6.1.

Hops:
Commercial versions I love strata/I7/citra combos so
1 oz magnum in boil (25.5 IBU)
2 ounces of both strata and Idaho#7 in whirlpool
3 ounces citra, 3 ounces strata and 1.5 ounces of Idaho#7 in dry hop

Water:
Start with RO and target Ca 100, Mg 9, Na 83, Cl 225, SO4 130

I'm going to try a step mash the best I can (not easy with setup)
~146 for 40 min
~159 for 40 min
~170 for 10 min
If that fails I'll probably just shoot for 156-158 for an hour

Yeast - my intent is to follow the post that said mix one package or Verdant and one of NE. One question here there was quite a bit of discussion of under pitching - in that case should I do something like a half pack of each?

I don't have good fermentation temp control yet (next on my list but probably not in time for this one) but read a bit about poor man's methods and going to try to at least do as close to...
Ferment in mid 60s and letting it rise to mid 70s and move to warmer area for end
Soft crash the best I can for 2 days
Dry hop "cooler"
Cold crash the best I can for a day

I am not set up for kegging yet and I'm sure I'm going to be told I'm going to have oxidation problems. I also know that is likely the case, but still need to give it a try. I did read up as much as I can from the few that claim they can bottle this successfully. Planning to bottle direct from fermenter, use tabs to carb, limited headspace, purge headspace and then cap immediately. I've done some heavily hopped WC IPAs that was with success.

Any feedback is welcome and thanks again for all the insights in this thread.

Without kegging, you're going to have to pay a lot of attention when bottling. You're going to get O2 pickup (it's unavoidable when bottling from the fermenter), and that's a no no for this style. Personally, I wouldn't even try it, but that's up to you.

Shoot for 6-6.5 gal into the fermenter. You're going to lose a lot of beer from absorption. If you get 5 gal into the fermenter, you're going to end up with like 4 gal of finished product.

I would eliminate the Magnum addition. You could do Columbus a little later in the boil if you're trying to up the IBU. Then do a late 5-10 min addition, then a WP addition 20-25 min.

I'd also drop the honey malt to about 2.5% max and mash 152F.

Your fermentation schedule sounds ok.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I Agree with @wepeeler for the honey malt lower to 2.5% as for his suggestion on the hop addition, that's really a personal preference, I still dona small 60 addition of simcoe but I've done both ways several times and it's what I prefer.

I don't bottle .. really anything unless I'm doing a small batch of some sort. That said, no oxygen post fermentation is definitely the biggest concern to this style. If you do brew and bottle it maybe just plan on a week long bender so you drink it all before oxidation sets in.. haha but in all seriousness, good luck and have fun with it, but it will test your patience.

Cheers!

 

[Dgallo]

Whew...as a new brewer I have to say probably my greatest accomplishment as a brewer so far was making it through this whole thread I've had a few batches of west coast IPAs I've been happy with but have been waiting to tackle an NEIPA. Thanks to everyone in this thread I think I have really good background. I'm not sure my process/equipment is quite up to where I need it to be but I am a big NEIPA fan and the itch to brew one is getting too strong. I just finished another brew this weekend and have one more planned before the NEIPA, but want to start getting things on order to do this in a few weeks. I think I gleaned enough from the thread to put together a good recipe/plan, but thought I would post it here for a double check.

I'm going to shoot for a 6.5 gal batch with only 5-5.5 in the fermenter. Past batches I've got a lot of trub in the fermenter and hoping the bigger batch keeps me from being tempted to try to get every possible ounce out of my kettle.

Grains:
70% 2 Row Pale Malt
13.3% Oat Malt
13.3% Wheat Malt
3.3% Honey Malt

Total grain ~21.3 lbs. Calculator says OG 1.080 and SRM of 6.1.

Hops:
Commercial versions I love strata/I7/citra combos so
1 oz magnum in boil (25.5 IBU)
2 ounces of both strata and Idaho#7 in whirlpool
3 ounces citra, 3 ounces strata and 1.5 ounces of Idaho#7 in dry hop

Water:
Start with RO and target Ca 100, Mg 9, Na 83, Cl 225, SO4 130

I'm going to try a step mash the best I can (not easy with setup)
~146 for 40 min
~159 for 40 min
~170 for 10 min
If that fails I'll probably just shoot for 156-158 for an hour

Yeast - my intent is to follow the post that said mix one package or Verdant and one of NE. One question here there was quite a bit of discussion of under pitching - in that case should I do something like a half pack of each?

I don't have good fermentation temp control yet (next on my list but probably not in time for this one) but read a bit about poor man's methods and going to try to at least do as close to...
Ferment in mid 60s and letting it rise to mid 70s and move to warmer area for end
Soft crash the best I can for 2 days
Dry hop "cooler"
Cold crash the best I can for a day

I am not set up for kegging yet and I'm sure I'm going to be told I'm going to have oxidation problems. I also know that is likely the case, but still need to give it a try. I did read up as much as I can from the few that claim they can bottle this successfully. Planning to bottle direct from fermenter, use tabs to carb, limited headspace, purge headspace and then cap immediately. I've done some heavily hopped WC IPAs that was with success.

Any feedback is welcome and thanks again for all the insights in this thread.

Recipe looks fine. I don’t see a need to drop your honey malt. I use 3% often and the difference of you droping your 3.3 % to 2.5% is literally just about 2 oz of honey malt, which really won’t make any difference to color or flavor.

Your biggest issue will be bottling as @wepeeler stated. It will be a pain in the a$$. Some people claim to be really successful with bottling NEIPAS(I’m not quite convinced, I just feel they have little reference of the difference as they only bottle). I think there are some threads on here that will provide the best process for bottling a NEIPA

 

[agentbud]

Whew...as a new brewer I have to say probably my greatest accomplishment as a brewer so far was making it through this whole thread I've had a few batches of west coast IPAs I've been happy with but have been waiting to tackle an NEIPA. Thanks to everyone in this thread I think I have really good background. I'm not sure my process/equipment is quite up to where I need it to be but I am a big NEIPA fan and the itch to brew one is getting too strong. I just finished another brew this weekend and have one more planned before the NEIPA, but want to start getting things on order to do this in a few weeks. I think I gleaned enough from the thread to put together a good recipe/plan, but thought I would post it here for a double check.

I'm going to shoot for a 6.5 gal batch with only 5-5.5 in the fermenter. Past batches I've got a lot of trub in the fermenter and hoping the bigger batch keeps me from being tempted to try to get every possible ounce out of my kettle.

Grains:
70% 2 Row Pale Malt
13.3% Oat Malt
13.3% Wheat Malt
3.3% Honey Malt

Total grain ~21.3 lbs. Calculator says OG 1.080 and SRM of 6.1.

Hops:
Commercial versions I love strata/I7/citra combos so
1 oz magnum in boil (25.5 IBU)
2 ounces of both strata and Idaho#7 in whirlpool
3 ounces citra, 3 ounces strata and 1.5 ounces of Idaho#7 in dry hop

Water:
Start with RO and target Ca 100, Mg 9, Na 83, Cl 225, SO4 130

I'm going to try a step mash the best I can (not easy with setup)
~146 for 40 min
~159 for 40 min
~170 for 10 min
If that fails I'll probably just shoot for 156-158 for an hour

Yeast - my intent is to follow the post that said mix one package or Verdant and one of NE. One question here there was quite a bit of discussion of under pitching - in that case should I do something like a half pack of each?

I don't have good fermentation temp control yet (next on my list but probably not in time for this one) but read a bit about poor man's methods and going to try to at least do as close to...
Ferment in mid 60s and letting it rise to mid 70s and move to warmer area for end
Soft crash the best I can for 2 days
Dry hop "cooler"
Cold crash the best I can for a day

I am not set up for kegging yet and I'm sure I'm going to be told I'm going to have oxidation problems. I also know that is likely the case, but still need to give it a try. I did read up as much as I can from the few that claim they can bottle this successfully. Planning to bottle direct from fermenter, use tabs to carb, limited headspace, purge headspace and then cap immediately. I've done some heavily hopped WC IPAs that was with success.

Any feedback is welcome and thanks again for all the insights in this thread.

Per Lallemand's yeast calculator, for 1.080 OG you would need 39g of NE or 18g of Verdant so definitely don't cut it in half. If anything, you may need more than one of each. Personally I would forgo the step and just do a single infusion at around 153-154 - but that's just me. Other than that, I like it. send me a bottle when it's ready. Mark my word - after this brew - you will be shopping for a fermentation fridge, kegs, equipment to limit O2, etc. The bug will have bitten.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Whew...as a new brewer I have to say probably my greatest accomplishment as a brewer so far was making it through this whole thread I've had a few batches of west coast IPAs I've been happy with but have been waiting to tackle an NEIPA. Thanks to everyone in this thread I think I have really good background. I'm not sure my process/equipment is quite up to where I need it to be but I am a big NEIPA fan and the itch to brew one is getting too strong. I just finished another brew this weekend and have one more planned before the NEIPA, but want to start getting things on order to do this in a few weeks. I think I gleaned enough from the thread to put together a good recipe/plan, but thought I would post it here for a double check.

I'm going to shoot for a 6.5 gal batch with only 5-5.5 in the fermenter. Past batches I've got a lot of trub in the fermenter and hoping the bigger batch keeps me from being tempted to try to get every possible ounce out of my kettle.

Grains:
70% 2 Row Pale Malt
13.3% Oat Malt
13.3% Wheat Malt
3.3% Honey Malt

Total grain ~21.3 lbs. Calculator says OG 1.080 and SRM of 6.1.

Hops:
Commercial versions I love strata/I7/citra combos so
1 oz magnum in boil (25.5 IBU)
2 ounces of both strata and Idaho#7 in whirlpool
3 ounces citra, 3 ounces strata and 1.5 ounces of Idaho#7 in dry hop

Water:
Start with RO and target Ca 100, Mg 9, Na 83, Cl 225, SO4 130

I'm going to try a step mash the best I can (not easy with setup)
~146 for 40 min
~159 for 40 min
~170 for 10 min
If that fails I'll probably just shoot for 156-158 for an hour

Yeast - my intent is to follow the post that said mix one package or Verdant and one of NE. One question here there was quite a bit of discussion of under pitching - in that case should I do something like a half pack of each?

I don't have good fermentation temp control yet (next on my list but probably not in time for this one) but read a bit about poor man's methods and going to try to at least do as close to...
Ferment in mid 60s and letting it rise to mid 70s and move to warmer area for end
Soft crash the best I can for 2 days
Dry hop "cooler"
Cold crash the best I can for a day

I am not set up for kegging yet and I'm sure I'm going to be told I'm going to have oxidation problems. I also know that is likely the case, but still need to give it a try. I did read up as much as I can from the few that claim they can bottle this successfully. Planning to bottle direct from fermenter, use tabs to carb, limited headspace, purge headspace and then cap immediately. I've done some heavily hopped WC IPAs that was with success.

Any feedback is welcome and thanks again for all the insights in this thread.

Without knowing your equipment you are using, I would say that cold crashing without O2 intake will be key. Do you have the means to drop the temps while adding CO2 to avoid O2 uptake? Aside from O2 uptake during bottling (as others have mentioned), Id say that if you can't soft crash with CO2 on hand....you might run into problems. You said you didn't have temp control yet so if you can add some info on how you are crashing the beer with the equipment on hand that might help us to give better advise for you on how best to lower your temps with minimal O2 uptake.

 

[Langerz]

I know I’ll come back and you can all say I told you so related to oxidation. Actually it won’t be I told you so since I already know. I’ll get the right equipment before long. One of the reasons I didn’t get into brewing a while ago is once I jump in I go all in and want everything. I’ve already spent a bunch and this is just me reining myself in a bit.

At the same time I definitely have the try an NEIPA itch and I’ll honestly be happy this round if I make a decent NEIPA that only lasts a few days and then fix that in the future.

 

[Langerz]

Without knowing your equipment you are using, I would say that cold crashing without O2 intake will be key. Do you have the means to drop the temps while adding CO2 to avoid O2 uptake? Aside from O2 uptake during bottling (as others have mentioned), Id say that if you can't soft crash with CO2 on hand....you might run into problems. You said you didn't have temp control yet so if you can add some info on how you are crashing the beer with the equipment on hand that might help us to give better advise for you on how best to lower your temps with minimal O2 uptake.

I do have CO2 and at a minimum can fill a balloon to put on the airlock. Temp will be a bit tougher but temps are still cool enough here to get me close to a soft crash in a couple places I have available that I can get in the ball park. I have a couple areas that should be close most of the day. I can try something like a swamp cooler to keep it more steady. It’s not perfect. Maybe I’ll just name this Redneck IPA. I ferment in a big mouth bubbler and might be able to get it in my beer fridge too. I’ll check that when the current batch is out of it.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Any feedback is welcome and thanks again for all the insights in this thread.

Good luck! I tend to think that NEIPAs are 80% about process. Award winning recipes are a dime a dozen, but I have had (and made) some pretty bad homebrewed NEIPAs. I have been homebrewing for nearly 30 years. About 3-4 years ago I invested time and effort into steps like water chemistry, fermentation temperature control and avoiding cold side oxidation. I could finally start to make really good American IPAs. After about a dozen batches of NEIPA style beers, I feel like I am slowly getting close to making a decent NEIPA.

At 1.080, make sure you are thinking about yeast pitch rate and health. Do not underpitch! I am not sure what a step mash would bring to an NEIPA. I feel like a single infusion mash can provide plenty of control over fermentability. Then focus on avoiding oxygen. Some people seem to bottle NEIPAs with good success. I have done some experiments, and find that standard bottling practices quickly lead to brown and oxidized beer.

I might suggest starting with a 6% "Hazy Pale Ale" with maybe 8 oz of total hops and seeing how that goes.

 

[jerrylotto]

Also make sure your ingredients are fresh - especially hops. Oxidation effects are not limited to brewday and beyond.

 

[anteater8]

Columbus/Mosaic Double NEIPA update:

7 lb 2 row
7 lb pils
3 lb malted oats
2 lb white wheat
1 lb flaked oats
0.5 lb dextrose

0.5 oz Warrior 60 min (18 IBU)
1 oz Columbus 10 min (14 IBU)
1 oz Columbus whirlpool
2 oz Mosaic whirlpool
2 oz Mosaic Lupomax whirlpool
6 oz Mosaic dry hop #1
2 oz Mosaic dry hop #2
2 oz Mosaic Lupomax dry hop #2

Imperial Juice gen 1

O.G. = 1.078
F.G. = 1.014
ABV = 8.4%

I'm happy with the color on this one, glad I used half pils for the base malt because I wouldn't want it much darker. The aroma is mango, pineapple, weed, strawberry and pine - its nice but not as strong as I would like. Flavor is more citrusy, with a lot of orange, followed by subtle pineapple, mango and faint pine and earthiness on the finish. Alcohol is somewhat noticeable and the finish is just barely more bitter than typical NEIPA. Body is medium, lighter than I would have expected, which I think makes the whole beer feel a bit lighter than it really is.

Overall I'm happy with the beer, it lands kind of in the middle of the road as far as my NEIPAs go. This is the first time I've brewed a double, and one of the only times I've deviated from my 3 main hazy recipes. Next time, I think I'd shoot for closer to 7.5% to 8%, dial back the IBU's and ditch the dextrose. I also went back to soft crashing before dry hop, and I actually wonder if dry hopping slightly cooler (high 50's/low 60's) decreased the aroma, not sure.

I still want to experiment more with oat/wheat heavy grain bills more. I tried Brujos Ad Arma for the first time, best NEIPA I've had in a really long time, and best triple NEIPA I've ever had by far... Apparently they are inspired by Troon and go really heavy on oats & wheat. Incredible stuff.

 

[James Quall]

Columbus/Mosaic Double NEIPA update:

7 lb 2 row
7 lb pils
3 lb malted oats
2 lb white wheat
1 lb flaked oats
0.5 lb dextrose

0.5 oz Warrior 60 min (18 IBU)
1 oz Columbus 10 min (14 IBU)
1 oz Columbus whirlpool
2 oz Mosaic whirlpool
2 oz Mosaic Lupomax whirlpool
6 oz Mosaic dry hop #1
2 oz Mosaic dry hop #2
2 oz Mosaic Lupomax dry hop #2

Imperial Juice gen 1

O.G. = 1.078
F.G. = 1.014
ABV = 8.4%

I'm happy with the color on this one, glad I used half pils for the base malt because I wouldn't want it much darker. The aroma is mango, pineapple, weed, strawberry and pine - its nice but not as strong as I would like. Flavor is more citrusy, with a lot of orange, followed by subtle pineapple, mango and faint pine and earthiness on the finish. Alcohol is somewhat noticeable and the finish is just barely more bitter than typical NEIPA. Body is medium, lighter than I would have expected, which I think makes the whole beer feel a bit lighter than it really is.

Overall I'm happy with the beer, it lands kind of in the middle of the road as far as my NEIPAs go. This is the first time I've brewed a double, and one of the only times I've deviated from my 3 main hazy recipes. Next time, I think I'd shoot for closer to 7.5% to 8%, dial back the IBU's and ditch the dextrose. I also went back to soft crashing before dry hop, and I actually wonder if dry hopping slightly cooler (high 50's/low 60's) decreased the aroma, not sure.

I still want to experiment more with oat/wheat heavy grain bills more. I tried Brujos Ad Arma for the first time, best NEIPA I've had in a really long time, and best triple NEIPA I've ever had by far... Apparently they are inspired by Troon and go really heavy on oats & wheat. Incredible stuff.

View attachment 816301

The beer does look great.

What did you do for the mash? Also, you dry hopped twice after fermentation? Did you drop the hops and then dry hop again?

Also, I find single dry hopped beers to be very hit or miss. Sometimes, your mind is blown with all of the aroma, flavor, and complexity coming through. Other times, it’s very meh and leaves you wanting more.

 

[anteater8]

The beer does look great.

What did you do for the mash? Also, you dry hopped twice after fermentation? Did you drop the hops and then dry hop again?

Also, I find single dry hopped beers to be very hit or miss. Sometimes, your mind is blown with all of the aroma, flavor, and complexity coming through. Other times, it’s very meh and leaves you wanting more.

Single infusion mash at 155. And yeah, I soft crashed to 50 for two days, let it raise closer to room temp for another two days, added dry hop #1, a day later added dry hop #2, started cold crashing a day after that. I didn't soft crash between dry hops.

Great point on the single hop. I've had great success with all Mosaic before but that was years ago. Who knows what the difference in crop was like.

 

[Komodo]

Single infusion mash at 155. And yeah, I soft crashed to 50 for two days, let it raise closer to room temp for another two days, added dry hop #1, a day later added dry hop #2, started cold crashing a day after that. I didn't soft crash between dry hops.

Great point on the single hop. I've had great success with all Mosaic before but that was years ago. Who knows what the difference in crop was like.

What were your soft / cold crash temps?

 

[secretlevel]

Any feedback is welcome and thanks again for all the insights in this thread.

If you can't manage a step-mash, I'd definitely opt for 152-155F at most, especially if you go for a higher OG. 158F could give you lots of unfermentables and a higher FG than you opted for.

Bottling. I'm one of the people claiming that it worked for me... to an extent. Do I still bottle? No. Does it work for a month or two? Yes. Drink it fast or give it away, don't plan on holding on to those bottles for longer than 2 months.
Instructions:
- ferment in a bucket or a fermenter with a spigot
- cold crash
- bottle straight from this bucket (first bottle is a dumper due to all the trub)
- add carbing solution or carb drops to each bottle before bottling
- be sure to fill almost all the way. Touch the wand to the bottle neck to get the fill all the way up within 1/2" of the cap.

 

[anteater8]

What were your soft / cold crash temps?

Soft down to ~50, dry hop at ~60, cold crash to ~38

 

[Rob2010SS]

What ratio have you guys used Motueka / Citra in and what were your thoughts? Looking to use this combo and right now, based on oil content, thinking a 2:1 ratio (Mot : Cit) on both the hot side and cold side.

 

[Dgallo]

What ratio have you guys used Motueka / Citra in and what were your thoughts? Looking to use this combo and right now, based on oil content, thinking a 2:1 ratio (Mot : Cit) on both the hot side and cold side.

That’s what I would do

 

[anteater8]

What ratio have you guys used Motueka / Citra in and what were your thoughts? Looking to use this combo and right now, based on oil content, thinking a 2:1 ratio (Mot : Cit) on both the hot side and cold side.

I also agree with this ratio, I've brewed it twice and its one of my all time favorites.

 

[Rob2010SS]

That’s what I would do

Haha, I'm glad you replied. I see a lot of your recommendations on what ratio's to use hop combos in and for a while I was like how the F does he know? Then I saw you comment about the oil content so that's exactly what I started looking at and how I decided 2:1 on this. So, thanks for sharing your learning!

 

[Rob2010SS]

I also agree with this ratio, I've brewed it twice and its one of my all time favorites.

Really glad to hear that actually!! Super pumped to try it.

 

[ihavenonickname]

I’m about to dry hop motueka, citra, mosaic, I7 at 8, 6, 4, 1 oz each. Because that’s the quantities that are convenient for storage. But I guess I could up the portion or motueka if you feel pretty strongly about that.

 

[James Quall]

I’m about to dry hop motueka, citra, mosaic, I7 at 8, 6, 4, 1 oz each. Because that’s the quantities that are convenient for storage. But I guess I could up the portion or motueka if you feel pretty strongly about that.

What size batch? 5 or 10 gallon?

 

[Dgallo]

Haha, I'm glad you replied. I see a lot of your recommendations on what ratio's to use hop combos in and for a while I was like how the F does he know? Then I saw you comment about the oil content so that's exactly what I started looking at and how I decided 2:1 on this. So, thanks for sharing your learning!

No problem man. I hope it’s been semi helpful to folks. It’s def not fool proof but gives you at least an idea of the potency. Experience has been quite a bit more helpful with ratios though.

 

[ihavenonickname]

@James Quall yeah that’s for 5gallons finished in the keg. Admittedly this is a bit of an alternative opinion on here… but I really think massive dry hops make the best versions of these beer. 8-10 oz just isn’t that much.

The more interviews, podcasts, articles I read from pro brewers the more I hear most brewers (at least of the IPAs I really love) start at 4lb/barrel dry hop for single IPAs — and for us thats 12 oz, not 8! Pros talk about the barrels of their batch size as what went into the fermenter, and then use yield (say 75-80%) to account for dry hop losses. So I’m using 6gallons into the fermenter for my calculations. And I think minimum 4-6 lb/Bll is pretty key to what I like - that thick, murky, big body, hop soup style of hazy. Now don’t get me wrong I think you can make a great hazy ipa with 6-8 oz DH and if the hops are great the aroma can be really punchy. But it’s just not the same effect and a way bigger DH that has been handled well (low O2, low hop burn, and given time to condition)

A pro recipe reference

Recipe: Deep Fried Trestlemania

New York City’s Deep Fried specializes in big, juicy, textured double and triple hazy IPAs that pack in hop flavor. Here’s a homebrew-scale recipe for Trestlemania, their collab with 3 Sons of Dania Beach, Florida, featuring multiple wheats, multiple oats, and more than 10 pounds of hops per barrel.

beerandbrewing.com

Recipe: Burke-Gilman The Hopsplainer

Courtesy of the brewing team at Burke-Gilman in Seattle, here is a homebrew-scale recipe for the double hazy IPA that won GABF gold in 2020.

beerandbrewing.com

 

[Bill2017]

@James Quall yeah that’s for 5gallons finished in the keg. Admittedly this is a bit of an alternative opinion on here… but I really think massive dry hops make the best versions of these beer. 8-10 oz just isn’t that much.

The more interviews, podcasts, articles I read from pro brewers the more I hear most brewers (at least of the IPAs I really love) start at 4lb/barrel dry hop for single IPAs — and for us thats 12 oz, not 8! Pros talk about the barrels of their batch size as what went into the fermenter, and then use yield (say 75-80%) to account for dry hop losses. So I’m using 6gallons into the fermenter for my calculations. And I think minimum 4-6 lb/Bll is pretty key to what I like - that thick, murky, big body, hop soup style of hazy. Now don’t get me wrong I think you can make a great hazy ipa with 6-8 oz DH and if the hops are great the aroma can be really punchy. But it’s just not the same effect and a way bigger DH that has been handled well (low O2, low hop burn, and given time to condition)

A pro recipe reference

Recipe: Deep Fried Trestlemania

New York City’s Deep Fried specializes in big, juicy, textured double and triple hazy IPAs that pack in hop flavor. Here’s a homebrew-scale recipe for Trestlemania, their collab with 3 Sons of Dania Beach, Florida, featuring multiple wheats, multiple oats, and more than 10 pounds of hops per barrel.

beerandbrewing.com

Recipe: Burke-Gilman The Hopsplainer

Courtesy of the brewing team at Burke-Gilman in Seattle, here is a homebrew-scale recipe for the double hazy IPA that won GABF gold in 2020.

beerandbrewing.com

@ihavenonickname, thanks for posting links above. I read both and also dug down to “Pushing Hop Flavor to Its Outer Limits”. That was a great read with a ton of information. Many (most) of the discussion points have been reported in some fashion on this forum. That’s why IMO, this site is the leading source for Northeast style IPA. Thanks to all for making this forum such a good informative resource.

 

[James Quall]

@James Quall yeah that’s for 5gallons finished in the keg. Admittedly this is a bit of an alternative opinion on here… but I really think massive dry hops make the best versions of these beer. 8-10 oz just isn’t that much.

The more interviews, podcasts, articles I read from pro brewers the more I hear most brewers (at least of the IPAs I really love) start at 4lb/barrel dry hop for single IPAs — and for us thats 12 oz, not 8! Pros talk about the barrels of their batch size as what went into the fermenter, and then use yield (say 75-80%) to account for dry hop losses. So I’m using 6gallons into the fermenter for my calculations. And I think minimum 4-6 lb/Bll is pretty key to what I like - that thick, murky, big body, hop soup style of hazy. Now don’t get me wrong I think you can make a great hazy ipa with 6-8 oz DH and if the hops are great the aroma can be really punchy. But it’s just not the same effect and a way bigger DH that has been handled well (low O2, low hop burn, and given time to condition)

A pro recipe reference

Recipe: Deep Fried Trestlemania

New York City’s Deep Fried specializes in big, juicy, textured double and triple hazy IPAs that pack in hop flavor. Here’s a homebrew-scale recipe for Trestlemania, their collab with 3 Sons of Dania Beach, Florida, featuring multiple wheats, multiple oats, and more than 10 pounds of hops per barrel.

beerandbrewing.com

Recipe: Burke-Gilman The Hopsplainer

Courtesy of the brewing team at Burke-Gilman in Seattle, here is a homebrew-scale recipe for the double hazy IPA that won GABF gold in 2020.

beerandbrewing.com

Thanks for the response and the links to the articles. Much appreciated. I actually live in South Florida, and 3 Sons Brewery is my go-to down here. I think I might have to get a subscription for beer and brewing to view that recipe.

I am definitely not arguing against it. I was asking for clarification. From what I have seen most people use 10-14 oz in the dry hop for a 5 gallon batch (what fits in a standard corny keg). 6-8 oz is not enough from my own experience and I have had better luck around 12-ish oz but haven't pushed it much beyond due to seeing other posts saying it's advised not to go too far beyond at the homebrew level for a 5 gallon batch.

I am definitely curious, have you used a 19 oz dry hop before? If so what were your results?

 

[Dgallo]

I just want everyone to understand that many of the breweries being discussed and the best NEIPA breweries that are stating they are doing 6-8lb/bbl are doing the equivalence of that amount using advanced hop products and not 100% t90.

Also a big difference between them and us is that they are hand selecting lots and getting contracted hops which are of far better quality than any of the hops we can source through hb shops.

I can confidently say that If you are dryhoping at 2-2.5 oz/gallon, roughly 4-5lbs/bbl with purely t90, You are in the ball park of what the best are doing it. Especially if you have the ability to agitate or rouse your dryhops.

To put this more into perspective say you are using;
1oz per gallon of t90
1.5oz per gallons of cryo
That would be the equivalent of doing 7lb/gallon dryhop of just t90